LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Shilgy]

1 hour ago, jls667 said:

 

I agree, which is why pro-LIV discussion is silly. PIF likely just wants a seat at the professional golf table much like they've done with other sports and billion dollar businesses. It's probably only a matter of time before they try to weasel their way in to the NFL too.

 

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that LIV was likely a disorganized creation when the PGAT didn't give PIF the time of day. They used their money to buy players and backdoor their way in to the group of golf super powers. Once that happens, and they have a seat at that table, LIV will likely be over because they'll no longer have a need for that money pit.

 

Another educated guess on my part is that the primary issue holding up the current merger discussions is how in the world do you bring the LIV guys back so they keep their money but you also do it in a way that doesn't piss off the current PGAT contingent. Sure they all want to play against each other (we all want that too) but the Tour players won't be satisfied with simply having the gang back together while the former LIV players use hundred dollar bills as handkerchiefs. 

 

It's silly for anyone to really tout the merits of LIV or how it's good for golf or anything like that. It's a Frankenstein tour that will no longer have value once PIF gets what they want.

My guess is that this deal is scheduled to occur at the end of next year when most of the big payouts contracts end.  And that the LIV guys would have to somehow earn their way back in if they wish to rejoin the PGA Tour.

 

And as noted in a post above Norman claims they are discussIng going to 72 holes but it needs to make economic sense….which would be a first for them.  He specifically mentions adding Thursday television as a deterrent.  Which makes sense considering they are footing the bill for television time…not getting paid for it like most sports leagues.

 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/40013682/liv-golf-open-minded-moving-72-hole-format-greg-norman-says

 

 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, idrive said:

What I don't understand is how anyone that truly likes golf, professional golf, thinks that liv is or has been good for golf.

 

I'm retired. I play a lot of golf with a lot of different groups of people.

 

Out of hundreds I've had one person say they think liv is good for the game.

 

The rest that pay attention to professional golf agree it's ruining the sport.

 

IMO, here in N America we don't need (or want) liv here helping us "grow the game".  If they (liv) truly want to grow the game then do it for the rest of the world. Take your tour where it might do some good growing the game.

 

But Normans revenge tour thinks otherwise. His goal isn't to grow the game but to dismantle the PGAT. That and or turn it into a feeder tour.

 

It's why we are where we are today. Shrinking the game. 

 

I think that is probably the difference in perceptions between US golf fans and the rest of the world.  

 

Ask a fan of the European Tour how the changes even pre-LIV made the ET better and a better opportunity to see the best golfers in the world.  Ask an Australian how professional golf was working in their country or region of the world.

 

I think our bias is impacting our opinions greatly on the status of the game, worldwide, currently.  It is probably not as bad as we perceive it to be and LIV is not as badly looked upon outside the United States as we feel it to be here.

[Togatown22]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

I think that is probably the difference in perceptions between US golf fans and the rest of the world.  

 

Ask a fan of the European Tour how the changes even pre-LIV made the ET better and a better opportunity to see the best golfers in the world.  Ask an Australian how professional golf was working in their country or region of the world.

 

I think our bias is impacting our opinions greatly on the status of the game, worldwide, currently.  It is probably not as bad as we perceive it to be and LIV is not as badly looked upon outside the United States as we feel it to be here.

No real fan of competitive professional golf - be they American or European or otherwise - thinks it's BETTER to have fewer opportunities to watch the top players in the world competing against each other regularly, with something meaningful on the line based on how they perform. 

If one does, they aren't a fan of competitive golf, they are a fan of something different.  

It's really simple.  

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, Togatown22 said:

No real fan of competitive professional golf - be they American or European or otherwise - thinks it's BETTER to have fewer opportunities to watch the top players in the world competing against each other regularly, with something meaningful on the line based on how they perform. 

If one does, they aren't a fan of competitive golf, they are a fan of something different.  

It's really simple.  

 

Well, that is like, your opinion man.  

 

By that same logic, prior to LIV, any non-major is not worthy of being a fan of.  The Masters, due to how they build their field, is not a good major.

 

Ponder on this, what about when a tournament is just not competitive?  Is it or is it not then competitive professional golf.

[idrive]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I think that is probably the difference in perceptions between US golf fans and the rest of the world.  

 

Ask a fan of the European Tour how the changes even pre-LIV made the ET better and a better opportunity to see the best golfers in the world.  Ask an Australian how professional golf was working in their country or region of the world.

 

I think our bias is impacting our opinions greatly on the status of the game, worldwide, currently.  It is probably not as bad as we perceive it to be and LIV is not as badly looked upon outside the United States as we feel it to be here.

 

Like I said, do it for the rest of the world. 

 

Why should the PGAT be worried about the rest of the world.  They have their own golf tours.

 

Please read my post again and try and understand what I said.

[smashdn]

34 minutes ago, idrive said:

Please read my post again and try and understand what I said.

 

I understand.  It appears you failed to include or mention that there is a commercial aspect of this as well.  LIV needs the US market too.

 

If all you cared about was growing the game, you wouldn't be in the US at all.  Or England or even Australia.  But the PGAT has cut the legs out of the other tours that were serving those other parts of the world.  LIV is filling in that void or competing in those areas.  

 

We don't like that they are also doing it in the US.

[stinger_gc]

I’ve got Stinger GC winning by 10 this week! The corrupt golf media will keep talking about Scottie, but this is our week!

[Shilgy]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I understand.  It appears you failed to include or mention that there is a commercial aspect of this as well.  LIV needs the US market too.

 

If all you cared about was growing the game, you wouldn't be in the US at all.  Or England or even Australia.  But the PGAT has cut the legs out of the other tours that were serving those other parts of the world.  LIV is filling in that void or competing in those areas.  

 

We don't like that they are also doing it in the US.

How?  How did the PGA Tour “cut the legs out”  (from under I presume to finish the saying) of these other countries or tours?  By taking the best players?  Like the Premier League does in football/soccer? F1 in open wheel racing? NBA? NHL? Should the Dodgers (almost wrote Angels) send Ohtani back to Japan?

 

The best at their sport do typically seek out the best league to play in.  If that just financially or competitively?  And does it matter if the league paying the most is run by those of dubious character?

 

LIV is what would have happened if Pablo Escobar decided to create a new soccer league.

[Togatown22]

7 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Well, that is like, your opinion man.  

 

By that same logic, prior to LIV, any non-major is not worthy of being a fan of.  The Masters, due to how they build their field, is not a good major.

 

Ponder on this, what about when a tournament is just not competitive?  Is it or is it not then competitive professional golf.

I guess your interpretation of logic and mind are different.  I specifically said "fewer" opportunities to compete against each other.  Not sure what the majors have to do with that statement.  LIV has moved talented professional golfers away from the entity where they used to all compete against each other - fewer opportunities for us to see them play against each other.   Why would someone who likes to watch competitive golf think that was a good thing?

[redfirebird08]

LIV Golf should definitely move to 72 holes and maybe 72 players. Turn this deal into a more legit competition, which would give them a pretty good case for world ranking points. 
 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/40013682/liv-golf-open-minded-moving-72-hole-format-greg-norman-says

[philly2kuk]

13 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

I think that is probably the difference in perceptions between US golf fans and the rest of the world.  

 

Ask a fan of the European Tour how the changes even pre-LIV made the ET better and a better opportunity to see the best golfers in the world.  Ask an Australian how professional golf was working in their country or region of the world.

 

I think our bias is impacting our opinions greatly on the status of the game, worldwide, currently.  It is probably not as bad as we perceive it to be and LIV is not as badly looked upon outside the United States as we feel it to be here.

I disagree, I’ve had a similar experience here in the UK where only one or two out of hundreds of people I’ve played with like LIV and think it’s good for the game. The vast majority I’ve played with see it as the rich getting richer and a group that left to a tour that won’t follow rankings rules but then cry they’ve no ranking points. All they’ve done is damage professional golf, Norman doesn’t want to grow the game - he just wants to destroy the pga tour. He doesn’t care what damage he inflicts to the game or his players in the process either.

 

I watch less golf overall now than before LIV existed and it’s not due to time or cost, it’s just the fact that I don’t like the LIV format and the pga tour has been watered down by their actions. The same would happen if half the f1 teams left to make their own competition or half the football teams left the premier league.

[hunterdog]

8 hours ago, Togatown22 said:

I guess your interpretation of logic and mind are different.  I specifically said "fewer" opportunities to compete against each other.  Not sure what the majors have to do with that statement.  LIV has moved talented professional golfers away from the entity where they used to all compete against each other - fewer opportunities for us to see them play against each other.   Why would someone who likes to watch competitive golf think that was a good thing?

I am the outsider on this argument. No one that has gone to LIV would make any difference as to whether I watched an event on a Sunday afternoon or not. And, so far, I like getting the “the best players”, who qualify, play against one another, only at the majors. I think it makes the majors bigger and heightens the intrigue/interest. Until there is the next Arnie or Tiger, viewership will continue to flatten because at the end of the day the product is still golf which I love to play and nap to while watching on Sunday afternoons.

[jjzee]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

I’ve got Stinger GC winning by 10 this week! The corrupt golf media will keep talking about Scottie, but this is our week!

No way bro! Cushers in a landslide!

[Hawkeye77]

8 hours ago, redfirebird08 said:

LIV Golf should definitely move to 72 holes and maybe 72 players. Turn this deal into a more legit competition, which would give them a pretty good case for world ranking points. 
 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/40013682/liv-golf-open-minded-moving-72-hole-format-greg-norman-says

He’s just tossing it out there. They aren’t ditching the teams and that would still get in the way of OWGR. Fans aren’t going to care about one more day of LIV and TV really won’t care. Just appeasing the wealthy Sultan of Rahm who must think he can “win” if there is one more day.  Well, you signed up for LIV not LXXII. 

[smashdn]

20 hours ago, Togatown22 said:

I guess your interpretation of logic and mind are different.  I specifically said "fewer" opportunities to compete against each other.  Not sure what the majors have to do with that statement.  LIV has moved talented professional golfers away from the entity where they used to all compete against each other - fewer opportunities for us to see them play against each other.   Why would someone who likes to watch competitive golf think that was a good thing?

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

Edited April 25 by smashdn
emphasized for clarity for the benefit of a few posters

[Titleist99]

15 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

Nah, the PGAT is doing just fine. IMO the USGA/RA is doing more damage to the tour than LIV with its nonsensical ball change drama. I also question the timing of it as well.

[PedronNiall]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

 

ET never had the viewers the way DP still doesn't. You act like the ET was a booming business that the PGA somehow bamboozled into all but folding up. Business is business even when we don't like it and there's a reason the PGA has had to partner with and/or advise the majority of other tours in the world. For all the love of the game many other places claim what they don't do is watch it in any sizeable numbers compared to those in NA and especially the US.

 

If the ET had been the better product it would have had the sustainable dollars to fund the purses to attract and keep the best players for enough events to at least retain exemption every year if not full membership. Let's not act as though both sides didn't try to shore up their positions against each other rather than playing nicely. Let's also not act like the ET putting their nose up in the air and looking down on the PGA as lesser didn't cause some of the strife that went on. 

 

All that said, the PGA/ET tiffs were nothing compared what's going on with LIV. Free country and all that but weird that you still have a chip on your shoulder about those past issues but are going full bore for LIV and going to an event in person. Ironic in my book. 

[idrive]

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

 

Your post made me laugh. Thanks

[Ghost of Snead]

3 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

 

Pure nonsense - the PGA Tour never paid anyone on the ET millions to come play in the U.S. 

[smashdn]

3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

If the ET had been the better product it would have had the sustainable dollars to fund the purses to attract and keep the best players for enough events to at least retain exemption every year if not full membership.

 

What would make the product better?

[stinger_gc]

5 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

It’s not exactly the same, the DP world was on life support and the alliance w the PGAT actually raised purses. With that said LIV was needed to shake up golf ecosystem. The PGAT was making millions of dollars due to the golfers on the tour and their was no accountability for that money. 

[WorkItBothWays]

14 hours ago, redfirebird08 said:

LIV Golf should definitely move to 72 holes and maybe 72 players. Turn this deal into a more legit competition, which would give them a pretty good case for world ranking points. 
 

https://www.espn.com/golf/story/_/id/40013682/liv-golf-open-minded-moving-72-hole-format-greg-norman-says

 

54 holes isn't the issue and it won't make any difference with respect to OWGR. It's the closed-shop nature and the team aspect that are the stumbling blocks and LIV have always known this. Both things are at the core of LIVs model so unless they fundamentally change they won't get points. A lot of LIV players still don't understand this despite OWGR being very clear.

[betarhoalphadelta]

On 4/24/2024 at 7:45 AM, smashdn said:

 

I think that is probably the difference in perceptions between US golf fans and the rest of the world.  

 

Ask a fan of the European Tour how the changes even pre-LIV made the ET better and a better opportunity to see the best golfers in the world.  Ask an Australian how professional golf was working in their country or region of the world.

 

I think our bias is impacting our opinions greatly on the status of the game, worldwide, currently.  It is probably not as bad as we perceive it to be and LIV is not as badly looked upon outside the United States as we feel it to be here.

 

Golf has three options:

1. Regional tours where the best players from their regions all stay in their respective homegrown regions. 
2. Regional tours where due to demographics / viewership / opportunities for golfers, all the best players coalesce onto a single tour and it is the most competitive tour, played within that region. Today that is the PGAT.
3. Global tour where due to viewership / opportunities for golfers, all the best players find their way to the global tour and it brings the traveling circus all over the globe. This is what LIV aspires to be. 

I'd say that #2 or #3 is fine for golf, because all the best players are on one tour and playing together regularly. I'm sure per your point that a lot of global golf fans would prefer #3 to #2 where North America gets all the goodies. For a few reasons (time zones being a giant one) I don't think the viewership numbers would support #3 very well. 

 

But either way, LIV aspired to be #3 and so far has failed miserably. And in doing so, while they've failed to be #3, they've diluted the pre-existing #2, so the end result is negative for all global golf fans outside of the majors. 

 

They shot their shot, but it didn't connect. As Omar says...

 

[bscinstnct]

6 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

 

The pga tour set up shop in Europe, scheduled events all over the UK, Ireland, and the Continent

 

And Paid guys to leave the DP tour and play events in the exact same countries in the same weeks as DP events?

 

 

 

 

[Golferpaul]

On 4/16/2024 at 6:38 PM, Holy Moses said:

And Norman told Rahm a merger was in the works. "Take our money and you'll still be playing on the new merged tour in no time." 

Do you have a link to that quote?

[notsohard]

51 minutes ago, Golferpaul said:

Do you have a link to that quote?

Just taken a screen shot and sent it to him, either he responds in the next 30mins, or I'll ask him later in the day when I see him. As they say, straight from the horses mouth. 

[smashdn]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

The pga tour set up shop in Europe, scheduled events all over the UK, Ireland, and the Continent

 

And Paid guys to leave the DP tour and play events in the exact same countries in the same weeks as DP events?

 

 

 

 

 

But do you understand the difference between "how" and "what"?  The difference between methods and effect?

 

Reread what you quoted of mine and then ask yourself, "Did I respond thinking he said the methods were the same or that the effects were the same?"

[jdl]

10 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Replace "LIV" with "PGA Tour" and you have what it did to the European Tour.

 

The shoe is now on the other foot and they don't like it.  

I wonder how many times this same tired take has been posted in this thread (or the others that got locked)? Still nonsense.

[Hawkeye77]

3 hours ago, notsohard said:

Just taken a screen shot and sent it to him, either he responds in the next 30mins, or I'll ask him later in the day when I see him. As they say, straight from the horses mouth. 

LOL.

 

The world needs no more images of Greg Norman and horses. 

[mitchl]

And OWGR grants approval for ranking points to the Clutch Pro Tour - a tour which has 54 hole events.

This nonsense about LIV going to 72 is just noise which has zero impact on the OWGR points issue (OWGR has said as much).  It might be helpful for those players who still compete in majors to be playing 72 holes, but as for ranking points - doesn't matter.

https://www.owgr.com/news/clutch-pro-tour