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LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)


SheriffBooth

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On 4/20/2024 at 1:53 PM, Shilgy said:

Hmm, think he will move the needle for LIV better than a Rahm or DJ?  Tells me something about his game when an American doesn’t try for the PGA Tour.

 

Have to be honestly @Shilgy this is an odd post for you.  Typically your post are on point.

 

Sorry just surprised as you know better then anyone that there 100's of players (American) that have gone to play other tours to hone their skills, and more so needed it probably mentally more then skill wise.   

 

PGAT tours history is riddle with many players that have done such,  including a former player that has won 5 majors. 

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On 4/21/2024 at 6:37 AM, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

PGAT players are NOT owned by the PGAT! It's a member organization. Like any organization there are rules you agree to when you join. That's not ownership. 

 

????  So you posted a number of times in  prior post that the players own the PGAT...?  Now you say that is not ownership.

 

I agree it can be confusing, as the they do list/say it is "player owned organization", yet the players don't set the bylaws for which they are required to follow as you note.  They are subject to whatever they sign but not in control of anything it appears based on how everything has transpired over the last year.    

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16 hours ago, freeze16172002 said:

maybe you dont know alot about sports. But when a team loses top players and still keeps winning it shows how deep they are. 

 

I thought team golf was not what the PGAT is about or even wanted??? 🤣  Just messing with you @freeze16172002 since there has been sooooo many post that team golf is worthless and players don't try hard.

 

Edit: Yet in college everything is based on individual and team golf and no one says they are not trying hard???? 

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9 hours ago, notsohard said:

 

 Change the mentality. The rest of the world isn't backwards. It's a growing market. So why not start now.  25mill play golf in the US. 24mill in Asia and growing fast.

 

"....

New research released by The R&A shows golf has surged in popularity in the Asia-Pacific region.

Research conducted by Sports Marketing Surveys (SMS) shows more than 23.3 million people across Asia played golf in 2020. That figure is up from 20.9 million in 2016, representing an 11.5 per cent increase – one of the most significant in the world.

Countries to have experienced the greatest increase in participation are China (+43%), Korea (31%), Malaysia (25%) and India (14%).

The total number of golfers expands to more than 24.6 million when taking in the Oceania region and is part of a record global reach of 66.6 million players.

The measure includes club members and non-member independent golfers playing nine or 18 holes and users of driving ranges in markets where course availability is limited.

The figure reflects a positive trend with participation levels rising worldwide after a period of decline."

 

Change what exactly?  I've said it before in this thread.  Start with a grass roots approach, instead of buying players build golf courses that are open to everyone, start amateur leagues, get the people interested in it.  Then in a few generations it might work out. 

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47 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

Change what exactly?  I've said it before in this thread.  Start with a grass roots approach, instead of buying players build golf courses that are open to everyone, start amateur leagues, get the people interested in it.  Then in a few generations it might work out. 

 

Aren't there several people in this thread and elsewhere decrying the business model already as unsustainable and not profitable.  I can only imagine what the discussion would be if they were openly telling investors and partners that the return might be realized in a "few generations."

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

I know no one cares, but I am legitimately excited about the LIV Nashville event.  I plan to get tix and go see it in person.  I like it on TV, I'll go see it in person and see what it is really like on the ground and compare it to the couple of PGA events and senior major event I have attended.

 

I am not sure about the course.  It is a high-dollar private club but also new-ish.  The layout might be challenging to fit all the bits and bobs needed for a pro event.  It used to host a KF event.  I guess that dried up.

I want people to have a good time - have fun! 
 

And post something on the “X” (kills me to see that - only “X” that resonates with me is a ZZ Top song) about how you saw Rory and Norman having a chat under a tree near a loo - that should get some play. 

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12 hours ago, tomjas said:


You obviously don’t understand the model 


There’s more than 7 million people of Indian origin living in North America and Major League Cricket already has global broadcast deals with CBS, ESPN and Star Sports 


More people watched the last World Cup final than the Super Bowl, the tournament itself had more than 1 TRILLION views and the India/Pakistan match in New York City is forecast to be the highest viewership match in history 

 

There’s no comparison between the popularity of cricket and golf wherever the venue but Norman allegedly wants to tap into that appetite for live sports 

 

So the primary market for cricket in North America is the 7M people of Indian origin who have emigrated here, or were descended from people who emigrated previously, who have a cultural affinity for the sport. 

 

Wouldn't that mean that the primary market for golf in Asia* would be for westerners from golf-loving countries that have emigrated to those countries, and perhaps those who descend from them? 

 

How many billions are we talkin' here? 

 

Spoiler

(* Australia excluded as they actually have legitimate golf culture, possibly NZ and Japan/Korea as well -- so IMHO the market in places like China/India would probably included those who are from any of those countries.)

 

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1 hour ago, smashdn said:

I know no one cares, but I am legitimately excited about the LIV Nashville event.  I plan to get tix and go see it in person.  I like it on TV, I'll go see it in person and see what it is really like on the ground and compare it to the couple of PGA events and senior major event I have attended.

 

I am not sure about the course.  It is a high-dollar private club but also new-ish.  The layout might be challenging to fit all the bits and bobs needed for a pro event.  It used to host a KF event.  I guess that dried up.


 

Sounds good sdn, I’m sure it’s cool live. 
 

Post pics! 

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2 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Change what exactly?  I've said it before in this thread.  Start with a grass roots approach, instead of buying players build golf courses that are open to everyone, start amateur leagues, get the people interested in it.  Then in a few generations it might work out. 

Is that what the PGAT did or is doing? 

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3 hours ago, bekgolf said:

 

Change what exactly?  I've said it before in this thread.  Start with a grass roots approach, instead of buying players build golf courses that are open to everyone, start amateur leagues, get the people interested in it.  Then in a few generations it might work out. 

 

2 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Aren't there several people in this thread and elsewhere decrying the business model already as unsustainable and not profitable.  I can only imagine what the discussion would be if they were openly telling investors and partners that the return might be realized in a "few generations."

 

"Then in a few generations it might work out" .....@bekgolf I think your spot on.  Just no going doing it the way you note.

 

PIF, its reps, actually no one from that side has ever touched the aspects of profit.  All the they note is they are in it this for the "long term".  Profit at this point is not the end goal, its about wearing everything/everyone down until they get in the "game" (pun intended 🙃)

 

Depending on how this goes, they will probably just keep pushing forward for the next 3-4 years or until a deal is complete.

 

When/If a deal is done, at the current pace of discussion and seems like Jay is pushing it.   I think PIF will end up with some formal (firm) agreement with the PGAT in the next 12-18 months and that is when it will all change.  Have to figure that is when PIF/LIV will move in a different direction.    

 

Say it is 18 months, on the bright side we get to see Rahm's "I am not happy" face for that duration 🤣 

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9 hours ago, BlackDiamondPar5 said:

^^^^Truth! Even in Australia where some want us to believe LIV is more popular than the PGA Tour, the actual data doesn't support that. 

 

The sports fan here in Australia isn't particularly discerning...throw in a few recognised names, truckloads of beer, some side entertainment and you're pretty much guaranteed success. It certainly doesn't prove the LIV model is the blueprint for golf's future.

 

Greg Norman is still revered here by a big chunk of the sporting public...he could roll up with Kim Jong Un and Putin as the headline act and plenty would still get behind him. 

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30 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I see you were confused by BDP5's response. 

 

No, that's not what the PGAT did or is doing. The PGAT was formed in a country that already had a robust, established, golf culture. In fact, it already even had a professional golf culture (which it split off from). 

 

There was no need for the PGAT to bootstrap North American golf culture because it already existed in North America. 

 

But in this thread, people keep telling us about how big the golf market is in Asia, with China/India being a combined 2.8 BILLION in population, and that's the big prize. But if those areas don't already have golf cultures, it's highly unlike that LIV, or the PGAT, or the DPWT, or the Asian tour, for that matter, is going to make REAL inroads in viewership without the local golf cultures booming, which we are saying is likely a multi-generational goal. 

 

The world (and the soccer 'industry') has been trying to make Americans care about soccer for a generation or longer now. They've thrown money at it. They've told us for a long time about how it's "the beautiful game." Guess what? It hasn't worked. We don't have a soccer culture. To a large extent the soccer culture that we do have comes from immigrants and their kids. 

 

What we're saying is that golf in China/India is likely going to be like soccer in the US, but even harder. Soccer requires a ball, a group of people, and an open field. Golf requires significant equipment, significant acreage, etc. Soccer is something that people can play if they're hanging out with friends--and in most of the world, that's what kids do and how they are exposed to the game. For golf, most people who get into the game due so because their parents bring them into it. If you're 8 years old, you're not going to have your 8 year old friend ask "hey want to go play golf with me?" It just doesn't translate easily. It's a MUCH harder route to organic growth. 

 

Which is all to say that if you want a market to exist, you don't just bring the traveling circus to town once (or a couple times) a year and "poof!" it exists. 

 

We're not actually saying LIV needs to build out the golf cultures in these areas. We're saying that a robust market for LIV won't happen unless SOMEONE does it, and even if someone actually starts working on it now, it's a 1-2 generation lag before that work actually pays off. 

 

 

Golf also requires a serious time commitment from both the players and the audience. You can finish a soccer game in 2 hours. Golf can drag out 6 hours in some cases. When it comes to TV viewers, it's hard to keep people engaged in a TV show for 6 hours in a single day. You are automatically limiting your audience with that type of product. This is why I think LIV Golf & PGA Tour should both try to speed up the game. Golf carts, range finders, a shot clock, and "ready golf" rules could help knock down the golf rounds to maybe 3 hours instead of 5-6 hours. 

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8 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Have to be honestly @Shilgy this is an odd post coming for you.  Typically your post are on point.

 

Sorry just surprised as you know better then anyone that there 100's of players (American) that have gone to play other tours to hone their skills, and more so needed it probably mentally more then skill wise.   

 

PGAT tours history is riddle with many players that have done such,  including a former player that has won 5 majors. 

Yes, and your example of Koepka is a good one.  To the best of my knowledge the player in question has never ever made an attempt since to return to the US.  What kind of player hold “rather” play Asian Tour?  Certainly not an elite one as was presented in the post I replied to.

 

I’m not saying he’s a bad player.  But he’s certainly not a big get for LIV if he winds up there.

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1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I see you were confused by BDP5's response. 

 

No, that's not what the PGAT did or is doing. The PGAT was formed in a country that already had a robust, established, golf culture. In fact, it already even had a professional golf culture (which it split off from). 

 

There was no need for the PGAT to bootstrap North American golf culture because it already existed in North America. 

 

But in this thread, people keep telling us about how big the golf market is in Asia, with China/India being a combined 2.8 BILLION in population, and that's the big prize. But if those areas don't already have golf cultures, it's highly unlike that LIV, or the PGAT, or the DPWT, or the Asian tour, for that matter, is going to make REAL inroads in viewership without the local golf cultures booming, which we are saying is likely a multi-generational goal. 

 

The world (and the soccer 'industry') has been trying to make Americans care about soccer for a generation or longer now. They've thrown money at it. They've told us for a long time about how it's "the beautiful game." Guess what? It hasn't worked. We don't have a soccer culture. To a large extent the soccer culture that we do have comes from immigrants and their kids. 

 

What we're saying is that golf in China/India is likely going to be like soccer in the US, but even harder. Soccer requires a ball, a group of people, and an open field. Golf requires significant equipment, significant acreage, etc. Soccer is something that people can play if they're hanging out with friends--and in most of the world, that's what kids do and how they are exposed to the game. For golf, most people who get into the game due so because their parents bring them into it. If you're 8 years old, you're not going to have your 8 year old friend ask "hey want to go play golf with me?" It just doesn't translate easily. It's a MUCH harder route to organic growth. 

 

Which is all to say that if you want a market to exist, you don't just bring the traveling circus to town once (or a couple times) a year and "poof!" it exists. 

 

We're not actually saying LIV needs to build out the golf cultures in these areas. We're saying that a robust market for LIV won't happen unless SOMEONE does it, and even if someone actually starts working on it now, it's a 1-2 generation lag before that work actually pays off. 

soccer don't even require that ... all these euro liv players want to be recognized the world over for golf the way their buddies are for soccer ... soccer requires a space that can be as small as the area between the door of school classroom and the chairs in it ... and the ball can be a wadded up piece of paper ... i've taught at a school that had refugees from all over the world ... they drop a bottle cap on the floor and kick it around ... and these aren't kids on the soccer team ... i remember a fabulous article by a writer for the houston chronicl that bemoaned the way soccer was being played in the states ... everything's too planned, too comfy, too organized ... kids play soccer at a manicured field and go home ... kids in the rest of the world play soccer anywhere, anytime and with anything ... norman and co seem to think that's replicable in asia, to some extent ... it ain't ... he reps his vietnam course like it's the newest pyramid ... who's playing it? ... golf's on the upswing for a bit, sure ... hell, it's been on the upswing in the states ... it's a stupidly ridiculous game with absurd requirements, which most can't meet, and the popularity from tiger was an anomaly that won't be repeated any time soon ... like ya'll are saying, it might work with some 5 hole courses and old equipment over the next 50 years ... might ... 

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20 minutes ago, Shilgy said:

Yes, and your example of Koepka is a good one.  To the best of my knowledge the player in question has never ever made an attempt since to return to the US.  What kind of player hold “rather” play Asian Tour?  Certainly not an elite one as was presented in the post I replied to.

 

I’m not saying he’s a bad player.  But he’s certainly not a big get for LIV if he winds up there.


lol 

 

I posted about Catlin here as the Asian Tour is affiliated with LIV and doesn’t have its own thread 

 

Nobody is saying that he’s elite 

 

Happy to start an Asian Tour thread but I guarantee that only 2 of us will post there (just like the DPWT one)

 

More should watch it as they play some good courses in interesting locations 

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14 minutes ago, tomjas said:


lol 

 

I posted about Catlin here as the Asian Tour is affiliated with LIV and doesn’t have its own thread 

 

Nobody is saying that he’s elite 

 

Happy to start an Asian Tour thread but I guarantee that only 2 of us will post there (just like the DPWT one)

 

More should watch it as they play some good courses in interesting locations 

Perhaps not elite but you certainly attempted to make it sound a positive if he makes it to LIV.  I thought everyone that went to LIV was elite?🤣

 

your post

John Catlin has just won the Asian Tour event in Riyadh to go top of the OOM (winner gets a LIV contract)

Had a shocking couple of years where he lost playing rights on the DPWT and then AT but has now won twice in succession 

Pretty good player who has won 3 times on the DPWT, shot a 59 in Macau and broke the AT record for consecutive holes without a bogey with 74

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1 hour ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

I see you were confused by BDP5's response. 

 

No, that's not what the PGAT did or is doing. The PGAT was formed in a country that already had a robust, established, golf culture. In fact, it already even had a professional golf culture (which it split off from). 

 

There was no need for the PGAT to bootstrap North American golf culture because it already existed in North America. 

 

But in this thread, people keep telling us about how big the golf market is in Asia, with China/India being a combined 2.8 BILLION in population, and that's the big prize. But if those areas don't already have golf cultures, it's highly unlike that LIV, or the PGAT, or the DPWT, or the Asian tour, for that matter, is going to make REAL inroads in viewership without the local golf cultures booming, which we are saying is likely a multi-generational goal. 

 

The world (and the soccer 'industry') has been trying to make Americans care about soccer for a generation or longer now. They've thrown money at it. They've told us for a long time about how it's "the beautiful game." Guess what? It hasn't worked. We don't have a soccer culture. To a large extent the soccer culture that we do have comes from immigrants and their kids. 

 

What we're saying is that golf in China/India is likely going to be like soccer in the US, but even harder. Soccer requires a ball, a group of people, and an open field. Golf requires significant equipment, significant acreage, etc. Soccer is something that people can play if they're hanging out with friends--and in most of the world, that's what kids do and how they are exposed to the game. For golf, most people who get into the game due so because their parents bring them into it. If you're 8 years old, you're not going to have your 8 year old friend ask "hey want to go play golf with me?" It just doesn't translate easily. It's a MUCH harder route to organic growth. 

 

Which is all to say that if you want a market to exist, you don't just bring the traveling circus to town once (or a couple times) a year and "poof!" it exists. 

 

We're not actually saying LIV needs to build out the golf cultures in these areas. We're saying that a robust market for LIV won't happen unless SOMEONE does it, and even if someone actually starts working on it now, it's a 1-2 generation lag before that work actually pays off. 


Can’t believe that I have to post this but…

 

The US has more youth soccer players than any country in the world, 31% of the country identify as soccer fans and some of the most watched games in history were played in America 

 

iNvEsTmEnT hAs BeEn A fAiLuRe

 

But let’s put that to one side 

 

Japan, Korea and Thailand have combined population exceeding 200 million and long established golf infrastructure 

 

That’s the tip of the iceberg 

 

Have a look at the countries represented on the Asian Tour - very few of those players weren’t home grown 

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6 hours ago, smashdn said:

 

Aren't there several people in this thread and elsewhere decrying the business model already as unsustainable and not profitable.  I can only imagine what the discussion would be if they were openly telling investors and partners that the return might be realized in a "few generations."

There were something like 4,000 golf courses built in the US in the 1920’s. My guess is that the people in charge are hoping for that sort of growth boom in one of these markets that has significantly more people. Big risk but to be on the front end if that were to happen could be a huge financial gain. No idea if thats the intent, but seems logical enough. 

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55 minutes ago, tomjas said:


Can’t believe that I have to post this but…

 

The US has more youth soccer players than any country in the world, 31% of the country identify as soccer fans and some of the most watched games in history were played in America 

 

iNvEsTmEnT hAs BeEn A fAiLuRe

 

But let’s put that to one side 

 

Japan, Korea and Thailand have combined population exceeding 200 million and long established golf infrastructure 

 

That’s the tip of the iceberg 

 

Have a look at the countries represented on the Asian Tour - very few of those players weren’t home grown 


 

Soccer has grown over the past 3 decades in the US  along with immigration. 30% of MLS soccer fans are Hispanic or Latino

 

They are generational players of the game at a grass roots level. 

 

As far as golf in Asia, every Asian (and Australian and European for that matter ) player aspires to play of the PGA tour. If they “make it”, they move to Florida. At least for the season and many permanently. 
 

But if LIV can make a go and fund an Asian/Australian market, that’s great 

 

Until now, the commercial support hasn’t been there to support a year round tour  for that pays the hundreds of millions in purses a year to attract the best players. 
 

But, LIV seems happy to and it would be good for the region. 

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9 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:


 

Soccer has grown over the past 3 decades in the US  along with immigration. 30% of MLS soccer fans are Hispanic or Latino

 

They are generational players of the game at a grass roots level. 

 

As far as golf in Asia, every Asian (and Australian and European for that matter ) player aspires to play of the PGA tour. If they “make it”, they move to Florida. At least for the season and many permanently. 
 

But if LIV can make a go and fund an Asian/Australian market, that’s great 

 

Until now, the commercial support hasn’t been there to support a year round tour  for that pays the hundreds of millions in purses a year to attract the best players. 
 

But, LIV seems happy to and it would be good for the region. 


Playing full time in the US is a relatively recent phenomenon which really started with Norman (guys like Crampton were an exception rather than the rule) and was driven by money 


Now the boot is on the other foot and the PGAT has a competitor with more money than they do plus there’s many more economies which can afford to fund the game 

 

Will it work?

 

No idea but IMO golf needs competition to the PGAT as it becomes more US centric with every passing year and that’s not good for the pro game globally 

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2 hours ago, Shilgy said:

Perhaps not elite but you certainly attempted to make it sound a positive if he makes it to LIV.  I thought everyone that went to LIV was elite?🤣

 

your post

 

John Catlin has just won the Asian Tour event in Riyadh to go top of the OOM (winner gets a LIV contract)

Had a shocking couple of years where he lost playing rights on the DPWT and then AT but has now won twice in succession 

Pretty good player who has won 3 times on the DPWT, shot a 59 in Macau and broke the AT record for consecutive holes without a bogey with 74


If you’re going to quote me then also include the one where I said that the bottom of its roster is a weakness for LIV

 

Nowhere have I said that it’s 100% elite 

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2 hours ago, tomjas said:


If you’re going to quote me then also include the one where I said that the bottom of its roster is a weakness for LIV

 

Nowhere have I said that it’s 100% elite 

And I didn’t say you did…👍

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3 hours ago, PedronNiall said:

 

My guy, this isn't difficult. Every business that lasts goes where the money is or where research says it will likely flow. If the world entire were the most viable market for professional golf then that's where the pro game's most business-savvy investors would be putting their funds. They aren't for a reason, and it's not because American golf entities are blocking "progress".

 

If global golf needs a catalyst to help it overcome the American Golf Boogeyman it certainly isn't the aimless, feckless, nebulous joke that is LIV. You time after time gloss over the fact that there is a DP World Tour that plays on multiple continents, as well as other professional tours that offer golf to global audiences. Despite hosting events worldwide that are convenient to those who want to watch in person or live on TV they cannot come anywhere near the viewership of North America because the interest is just not there.

 

For all the work many other sports have done to try and grow popularity in other parts of the world, it often doesn't work because it's borderline impossible to force the perfect storm of things that make a sport loved to coalesce through money and intrigue. One thing it's clear you really don't get is how much difference access makes. You have exceptions in the way entire countries get behind top motorsport stars despite the barriers to entry, but for the most part people cheer so hard for the successful sports because they can see themselves in the players. Many of the best in anything that really drives numbers came from nothing.

 

Golf is not that way at all, so it's not hard to see why it's only largely popular in the part of the world that has the weather, the land, and the proportionately wealthy population to support and cheer for it. Cricket, futbol/soccer, baseball, rugby, American football, basketball, and 99% of sports that are more popular globally than golf require almost nothing in the way of investment comparably. Access is a massive hurdle for golf being a popular global game, which also means its a massive hurdle for it being a profitable global game.

 

I know this is wasted time typing this because reality means nothing to you, but the mood struck so there is yet a little more of why your belief in the big, bad PGA Tour is so laughable. People move heaven and earth when there's money to be made. Do you really think the rich who want to be richer wouldn't have found a way to make a world tour work if the money were there? Do you not realize how much has already been spent trying it? Do you not realize that the the PGA Tour has been strategic in their partnerships around it because it's such a difficult medium to break even? Do you not realize that many tours outside of the US have only even been kept alive because the PGA lent them funds or offered them advising or partnership?

 


Your comprehension skills have obviously been clouded by emotions so I will repeat what I posted earlier 

 

IF IT WAS MY MONEY, the LIV international schedule would include Australia * 2, New Zealand, South Africa, Ireland, Canada, Japan and Korea

 

That’s literally more than 50% of the entire schedule and all are existing golf markets

 

Chuck in a couple of tournaments in international growth markets (say India and South America) with the balance in the US

 

I could shred your assertion about the PGAT but I am not allowed to talk politics here 

 

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      Tiger Woods - WITB - 2024 US Open
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    • 2024 US Open - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 US Open - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
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      Tiger Woods on the range at Pinehurst on Monday – 2024 U.S. Open
      Newton Motion shaft - 2024 US Open
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      New UST Mamiya Linq shaft - 2024 US Open

       

       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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    • Titleist GT drivers - 2024 the Memorial Tournament
      Early in hand photos of the new GT2 models t the truck.  As soon as they show up on the range in player's bags we'll get some better from the top photos and hopefully some comparison photos against the last model.
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
       
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    • 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put any questions or comments here
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Monday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #1
      2024 Charles Schwab Challenge - Tuesday #2
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      WITB Albums
       
      Keith Mitchell - WITB - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
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      Pullout Albums
       
      Eric Cole's newest custom Cameron putter - 2024 Charles Schwab Challenge
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    • 2024 PGA Championship - Discussion and Links to Photos
      Please put  any questions or comments here
       
       
       
       
      General Albums
       
      2024 PGA Championship - Monday #1
       
       
       
       
       
      WITB Albums
       
      Michael Block - WITB - 2024 PGA Championship
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      Pullout Albums
       
      Ping putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
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      Cameron putter covers - 2024 PGA Championship
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      Scotty Cameron experimental putter shaft by UST - 2024 PGA Championship
       
       
       
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