LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[PedronNiall]

34 minutes ago, jdl said:

Yah, we've been hearing for decades that soccer would take off in the US. It's done better for sure but still a long ways back.

 

"Just wait until all those kids playing soccer when they're young grow up!"

 

They're all grown up and mostly watching NFL, NBA, etc. like everyone else.

 

As someone pointed out from an article earlier the main problem is that kids here don't play soccer the same way. In other countries kids grab anything resembling a ball and get to it. Here most kids don't play unless they have a proper ball on a proper field during a sanctioned time. Until that changes, the States won't have a good enough foundation for fielding high level MLS rosters, and high dollar contracts for foreign stars can only fill so many spots. 

 

Watchers are up, but they're watching, doing fantasy drafts for, and betting mostly on leagues outside of the US because MLS is so mediocre in comparison. Soccer's popularity increase is mostly from global stars driving enough excitement alongside campaigns over the last 30 years or so, and it's all being driven to foreign clubs. 

 

Amazing that the main guy in this thread citing soccer growth here doesn't seem to get how much money and focused effort went into the growth in the US or how much stronger of a base soccer had and still has comparatively to golf. Guy still thinks PIF is a rational actor rather than one who thinks money alone will overcome piss poor planning.  

[cdnglf]

8 minutes ago, subrew said:

 

It was all CART.  Then Tony George, who owned the Indianapolis Speedway had disagreements with the CART structure, so he created his own league, IRL.  They ended up being totally different cars, engines etc, so it was just dumb.  Because he owned the Indy 500, only IRL teams could run the Indy 500, taking away the biggest single event in the sport and CART teams/drivers missed it.  IRL was mostly made up of C level teams and drivers, but winning the Indy 500 was still a thing, so some teams/drivers had ok success on IRL.  After many years, some of the CART owners would start fielding a single car at the Indy 500, having some success.  So it started to have a similar feel of the majors in golf, with teams/drivers from two different leagues coming together for a big event.

 

Both leagues suffered, and eventually there was a merger back to a single league, and fast forward a decade and Tony George doesn't even own Indy anymore, Roger Penske does, one of the main CART guys.

 

So the entire thing dragged out for way too long, we had two watered down leagues for a while, and the entire sport went from being hugely popular before the split (like F1 drivers would actually choose to come to CART because it was awesome) to it turning into a ghost town.  It's on an upward trend currently, but nowhere near the popularity it once had.

 

Thanks, I appreciate the detail. Sounds like some parallels to golf's current mess; eg "IRL was mostly made up of C level teams and drivers" 😉

[hackeraz]

24 minutes ago, cdnglf said:

 

Thanks, I appreciate the detail. Sounds like some parallels to golf's current mess; eg "IRL was mostly made up of C level teams and drivers" 😉

Kind of but the break away Championsip Auto Racing Teams was by far and large a much, much better product than the IRL. However, as mentioned by subrew, Tony George had Indianapolis and the Indy 500 to prop his entire sub par series up with. Tony George put a knife in domestic open wheel racing. 

[italianstallion]

2 hours ago, tomjas said:

What’s your basis for claiming that PIF is an irrational actor?

 

They are rational actors, but only to themselves. Buying golfers for billions, building 110-mile long buildings, building rollercoasters as high as skyscrapers in the middle of a scorching hot unpopulated desert…all being done so that they can distract the world from what’s really going on and cosplay as good guys in an attempt to fill their coffers. To the rest of the world, the allocation of capital to these ventures is completely irrational as the timeline of getting a return on investment, if you ever get one, is measured not in years but in generations. Disagree with it being irrational? Try getting anybody else on earth, whether its an individual, business, or government, to write you a check to do those things after you present that same business plan. If you do, please come back here and tell me they are rational actors and I'll swiftly agree and retract my comments.

[dcmidnight]

Some of the same people who report and complain when the LIV thread doesnt talk about LIV have now spend three pages not talking about LIV.

 

Please stop - I do not want to put the thread back on moderation.

 

Thank you.

Edited April 23 by dcmidnight

[dalehead]

On 4/21/2024 at 6:49 AM, tomjas said:

Such an odd take as you can’t judge anything in 30 seconds 

 

It’s golf at the end of the day 

I think you’ve identified a major problem LIV has had since it’s inception. At the end of the day it’s just golf on TV, and golf on TV has always had a small, niche audience. And that audience is not big enough to support two major tours, at least in the US. Every metric supports this conclusion. And the overwhelming majority prefer the PGAT.

 

One thing is undeniable. Two and a half years into its existence LIV has been a failure with the golf audience. I’m speaking for the US. I have no insight into how well it’s doing in the rest of the world. So do they keep offering their same product hoping it catches on?

 

Also, consider the LIV product will change significantly in 18 months. Contracts with their major players will expire. Does LIV spend hundreds of millions more to retain DJ, Phil, Westwood, Poulter, McDowell, Kaymer, Na, Perez, etc., etc.? And even if they do are any of them, including DJ, going to draw more of an audience than they do now? And who does LIV replace them with? Spend billions more to sign PGAT players? Pin their hopes on newcomers?

 

Now some would say LIV should concentrate on the rest of the world, especially Asia, to build an audience. This may be viable. But even numbers of golfers grow in these countries, professional golf on TV will not attract large audiences in these countries until they have home grown stars to root for. And that will take two or three generations. The Indian Premier cricket league has been touted here as GN’s model. How many of their players are non Indian?

[TiScape]

I won’t name names (it’s obvious) bcs I’d most likely get “points” for “abusive behavior”. But dang, someone has put this thread and LIV on their back! Makes me wonder where the ‘usual suspects’ went??? (Can’t name names, but again obvious) 😊 

[Hawkeye77]

Rory going back on the Tour Board! 

[redfirebird08]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Rory going back on the Tour Board! 

That doesn’t seem great for McIlroy’s performance on the golf course. 

[tomjas]

5 hours ago, italianstallion said:

 

They are rational actors, but only to themselves. Buying golfers for billions, building 110-mile long buildings, building rollercoasters as high as skyscrapers in the middle of a scorching hot unpopulated desert…all being done so that they can distract the world from what’s really going on and cosplay as good guys in an attempt to fill their coffers. To the rest of the world, the allocation of capital to these ventures is completely irrational as the timeline of getting a return on investment, if you ever get one, is measured not in years but in generations. Disagree with it being irrational? Try getting anybody else on earth, whether its an individual, business, or government, to write you a check to do those things after you present that same business plan. If you do, please come back here and tell me they are rational actors and I'll swiftly agree and retract my comments.

In summary, you have concluded that they’re irrational actors because they don’t think like you

 

I wish that I had a $ for every foreign businessman that reached the same conclusion after falling to achieve their goals in the ME

 

 

[italianstallion]

15 minutes ago, tomjas said:

In summary, you have concluded that they’re irrational actors because they don’t think like you

 

I wish that I had a $ for every foreign businessman that reached the same conclusion after falling to achieve their goals in the ME

 

 

Thats not the retort you think it is. If I thought and acted like they do, not only would I go broke, but I’d be in jail for life. 

[the bishop]

9 hours ago, tomjas said:

Dude, you didn’t even know it existed in the US and it’s on target to swamp most of those sports in the next few years as the 2026 World Cup will be by far the biggest sporting event ever held in the US

 

Soccer sucks

[dalehead]

9 hours ago, tomjas said:

Dude, you didn’t even know it existed in the US and it’s on target to swamp most of those sports in the next few years as the 2026 World Cup will be by far the biggest sporting event ever held in the US

 

We’ve seen this movie before. When the World Cup comes to the US the country goes soccer crazy. When the Cup is over its back to “Soccer?”(Yawn). We’ve been told soccer is on the verge of being the next big sport in the US for the last 60 years.

Edited April 23 by dalehead

[Golfinfloridaafter40]

26 minutes ago, the bishop said:

Soccer sucks

It's fantastic to play but watching is abysmal

[tomjas]

51 minutes ago, italianstallion said:

Thats not the retort you think it is. If I thought and acted like they do, not only would I go broke, but I’d be in jail for life. 

And there you have it

 

You’re making the mistake of judging them by your standards and not those that actually apply 

PIF is MBS who is the de facto king and one of the most powerful & richest people on the planet 

 

You’re very mistaken if you think that he sits around assessing IRRs or plotting ways to destroy a random sports administration body

[tomjas]

1 hour ago, dalehead said:

We’ve seen this movie before. When the World Cup comes to the US the country goes soccer crazy. When the Cup is over its back to “Soccer?”(Yawn). We’ve been told soccer is on the verge of being the next big sport in the US for the last 60 years.

So you think that the millions of kids who play soccer in the USA are suddenly going to stop once the final whistle of the World Cup blows?

 

Good luck with that prediction 😂

[Noles]

2 minutes ago, tomjas said:

So you think that the millions of kids who play soccer in the USA are suddenly going to stop once the final whistle of the World Cup blows?

 

Good luck with that prediction 😂

Yes.  And many won't even watch to begin with.  Both of my kids played soccer when they were young.  Never watched a minute of soccer on tv.  There are millions of kids that are just like this.  It's the easiest sport to get young kids to play but that doesn't mean they will like it as they get older or become fans as adults.

[tomjas]

27 minutes ago, Noles said:

Yes.  And many won't even watch to begin with.  Both of my kids played soccer when they were young.  Never watched a minute of soccer on tv.  There are millions of kids that are just like this.  It's the easiest sport to get young kids to play but that doesn't mean they will like it as they get older or become fans as adults.

Happens world over

 

Those kids will be replaced by more kids and the sport keeps growing 

[mosesgolf]

2 minutes ago, tomjas said:

Happens world over

 

Those kids will be replaced by more kids and the sport keeps growing 

You really do live in an alternate reality.  Most of your posts are wishful delusion.

[italianstallion]

1 hour ago, tomjas said:

And there you have it

 

You’re making the mistake of judging them by your standards and not those that actually apply 

PIF is MBS who is the de facto king and one of the most powerful & richest people on the planet 

 

You’re very mistaken if you think that he sits around assessing IRRs or plotting ways to destroy a random sports administration body

I’ll never claim to be the smartest person in the room, but I am factually certain that a greater majority of the world accepts my standards over theirs. There you have it. 

[scotee]

Looks like the PGAT loyalists will collect their reward. I wonder how this will be received by the rank and file players. Not everyone will be happy. Hard to make it completely fair.

 

https://golfnews.co.uk/features/pga-tour-unveils-golden-handcuffs-equity-payout-to-reward-loyal-players/#:~:text=PGA Tour unveils 'golden handcuffs' payout to reward loyal players,-8 February 2024&text=The way the %24930m,%24750m (£593m).

 

[idrive]

After Rahm calls out liv to go to 72 hole format, Norman says he's thinking about it.

 

But the former world number one also acknowledged that it all depended on what worked best financially for LIV's powerbrokers. 

"At the end of the day, LIV is a business. If it doesn't fit the product, it doesn't fit the product," he said. 

"I'm just a player. There's a lot of people that are a lot smarter than me that can figure it out and explain why they believe 54 holes may be better for them."

 

🤣  If liv was a business, a real business they'd be out of business.

[notsohard]

Just some perspective on topic....LIV golf will not merge with the PGAT. It will remain a stand alone tour. PIF and the PGAT talks are separate to what is happening with LIV.

[Hawkeye77]

7 hours ago, idrive said:

After Rahm calls out liv to go to 72 hole format, Norman says he's thinking about it.

 

But the former world number one also acknowledged that it all depended on what worked best financially for LIV's powerbrokers. 

"At the end of the day, LIV is a business. If it doesn't fit the product, it doesn't fit the product," he said. 

"I'm just a player. There's a lot of people that are a lot smarter than me that can figure it out and explain why they believe 54 holes may be better for them."

 

🤣  If liv was a business, a real business they'd be out of business.

 

 

Hmmmm - LXXII

 

I guess if they sell the exhibition league to Lexi Thompson there’s a stretch to be made, lol. 
 

They are stuck with their 54 holes and …. teams, Rhambo - no way they are “rebranding” - Rahm may have to forfeit the private chef for talking heresy.  But gets to keep the luggage Sherpa.  

Edited April 24 by Hawkeye77

[bscinstnct]

9 hours ago, scotee said:

Looks like the PGAT loyalists will collect their reward. I wonder how this will be received by the rank and file players. Not everyone will be happy. Hard to make it completely fair.

 

https://golfnews.co.uk/features/pga-tour-unveils-golden-handcuffs-equity-payout-to-reward-loyal-players/#:~:text=PGA Tour unveils 'golden handcuffs' payout to reward loyal players,-8 February 2024&text=The way the %24930m,%24750m (£593m).

 

 

Thanks!

 

So, $750MM divided between the top 36

 

Id speculate there are 10 players they fell they “must” keep. So…maybe 60% of that for those 10. 
 

Then, out of that $450MM, maybe certain out of the 10 guys get more than others. 
 

But overall I’d think the most they can pay any one of a small handful of guys is 75MM or so 

 

Crazy money buy a relative pittance to what LIV can pay. 
 

Maybe they can cut certain guys in on other money making ventures SSG/the new entity originate 

 

You’d hope they give guys like Aberg and Sahith good 💰. And keep some “dry powder” for new up and comers. 
 

Id imagine taking the money entails a vesting period or restrictions on the timing of cashing it in. 
 

Oh, maybe they can even put performance incentives in for guys. Like if Sahith wins a major, he gets more money etc 

 

Ahh just saw this after I submitted this post…

 

 

Edited April 24 by bscinstnct

[stinger_gc]

That’s a ton of money for Rory and Tiger. 

[jls667]

2 hours ago, notsohard said:

Just some perspective on topic....LIV golf will not merge with the PGAT. It will remain a stand alone tour. PIF and the PGAT talks are separate to what is happening with LIV.

 

I agree, which is why pro-LIV discussion is silly. PIF likely just wants a seat at the professional golf table much like they've done with other sports and billion dollar businesses. It's probably only a matter of time before they try to weasel their way in to the NFL too.

 

If I was a betting man, I'd bet that LIV was likely a disorganized creation when the PGAT didn't give PIF the time of day. They used their money to buy players and backdoor their way in to the group of golf super powers. Once that happens, and they have a seat at that table, LIV will likely be over because they'll no longer have a need for that money pit.

 

Another educated guess on my part is that the primary issue holding up the current merger discussions is how in the world do you bring the LIV guys back so they keep their money but you also do it in a way that doesn't piss off the current PGAT contingent. Sure they all want to play against each other (we all want that too) but the Tour players won't be satisfied with simply having the gang back together while the former LIV players use hundred dollar bills as handkerchiefs. 

 

It's silly for anyone to really tout the merits of LIV or how it's good for golf or anything like that. It's a Frankenstein tour that will no longer have value once PIF gets what they want.

[Noles]

9 hours ago, scotee said:

Looks like the PGAT loyalists will collect their reward. I wonder how this will be received by the rank and file players. Not everyone will be happy. Hard to make it completely fair.

 

https://golfnews.co.uk/features/pga-tour-unveils-golden-handcuffs-equity-payout-to-reward-loyal-players/#:~:text=PGA Tour unveils 'golden handcuffs' payout to reward loyal players,-8 February 2024&text=The way the %24930m,%24750m (£593m).

 

This is from February 8th

[idrive]

What I don't understand is how anyone that truly likes golf, professional golf, thinks that liv is or has been good for golf.

 

I'm retired. I play a lot of golf with a lot of different groups of people.

 

Out of hundreds I've had one person say they think liv is good for the game.

 

The rest that pay attention to professional golf agree it's ruining the sport.

 

IMO, here in N America we don't need (or want) liv here helping us "grow the game".  If they (liv) truly want to grow the game then do it for the rest of the world. Take your tour where it might do some good growing the game.

 

But Normans revenge tour thinks otherwise. His goal isn't to grow the game but to dismantle the PGAT. That and or turn it into a feeder tour.

 

It's why we are where we are today. Shrinking the game. 

[JungleJimbo]

2 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Thanks!

 

So, $750MM divided between the top 36

 

Id speculate there are 10 players they fell they “must” keep. So…maybe 60% of that for those 10. 
 

Then, out of that $450MM, maybe certain out of the 10 guys get more than others. 
 

But overall I’d think the most they can pay any one of a small handful of guys is 75MM or so 

 

Crazy money buy a relative pittance to what LIV can pay. 
 

Maybe they can cut certain guys in on other money making ventures SSG/the new entity originate 

 

You’d hope they give guys like Aberg and Sahith good 💰. And keep some “dry powder” for new up and comers. 
 

Id imagine taking the money entails a vesting period or restrictions on the timing of cashing it in. 
 

Oh, maybe they can even put performance incentives in for guys. Like if Sahith wins a major, he gets more money etc 

 

Ahh just saw this after I submitted this post…

 

 

 

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/golf/2024/04/24/tiger-woods-100m-equity-payment-pga-tour-pif-saudi-liv-tour/

 

 

 

Quote

 

Tiger Woods to receive $100m equity payment for staying loyal to PGA Tour

archive.ph/8Ekvq

James Corrigan,April 24, 2024

 

Tiger Woods will today receive an email from Sawgrass HQ informing him that he will receive up to $100 million in equity for staying loyal to the PGA Tour, with Rory McIlroy benefitting possibly to the tune of $50m for not joining LIV.

Jay Monahan, the PGA Tour commissioner, will press the button on the ultra-personal messages that have been eagerly awaited since Strategic Sports Group – a consortium of US investors led by Liverpool FC owner Fenway Sports – pumped $1.5billion into PGA Tour Enterprises, the new for-profit company, three months ago.

 

Approximately two thirds of that figure will be divvied up as equity to 193 golfers, although with $750 million to be split amongst the 36 superstars adjudged by the circuit to be most deserving the sums will be wildly different. Little wonder, therefore, that Monahan and his management team have been at pains to keep the breakdown confidential.

The Tour has already explained to its members that a primary factor in determining who obtains what is a metric called Career Points, which, as it says on the tin, awards marks for achievements on Tour for however long the players have been competing.

Other factors will be how they have fared in the Player Impact Program – introduced three years ago largely to stave off the threat of the breakaway league – which rewards players who have had the largest impact on the Tour’s business – tickets, sponsorships, media consumption and fan engagement – and have driven. Woods has already received $35million in PIP payments, while McIlroy, who topped last year’s program, has pulled in $30.5million from this source of income.

 

Inevitably, Woods, with 82 Tour titles, will be miles clear in the overall standings and insiders forecast he could secure as much as two times more than any other player in the sliding-scale system.

 

Phil Mickelson would have been second had he not jumped ship to LIV – the rebels are obviously excluded – although the new entity and this scheme would almost certainly not have come to fruition but for the formation of the Saudi-funded league and, in part, to Mickelson’s role in the sporting Civil War.

 

With three victories in the FedEx Cup – basically the PGA Tour money list – to his name, McIlroy will be Woods’s nearest pursuer and there will follow the likes of Jordan Spieth and Justin Thomas, who will be due equity worth around $30million.

Of course, with Jon Rahm landing an upfront fee of $450million to defect late last year, all of these names would have acquired far, far more if they had succumbed to the Saudi offers. And this record payday does not mean money in the bank. The recipients will be told how many equity units they have been granted and what the fair market value is at this juncture. They will not be able to cash in immediately and then make it a “double-bubble” by suddenly signing for LIV.

 

After four years, 50 percent of their equity will be vested, with another 25 percent two years later and the remaining amount two years after that. They will also have to fall in line with the rules, which as well as not decamping, involve meeting the minimum requirements for Tour membership and, if not, providing services such as sponsors meets and media appearances.

 

The lucky three dozen will rub their hands, but the next 64 players will also collect $75million in equity between them. The next tranche will see a total of 57 players sharing $30 million and another $75million will be carved up between the 36 players considered living legends who have retired. In each group, Career Points will be the overriding determinant. Going forward, the Tour has pledged to award equity of $100million on an annual basis rewarding those such as second-year sensation Ludvig Aberg who are quickly picking up Career Points.

 

Naturally, the equity will grow, despite the Tour’s recent poor TV ratings as the dilution of talent because of the split takes its toll. Nobody is expecting it to fall. And if the Tour can agree a deal with the Saudi Public Investment Fund in the ongoing negotiations then the players hope their stocks could explode. If that remains uncertain then at least one thing appears assured – the current batch of professionals are not going poor anytime soon.

 

 

 

Edited April 24 by JungleJimbo