LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[tiderider]

11 minutes ago, Chrysalis99 said:

You win the internet today. 🤪

What about boner management or a wealth pill?

[idrive]

2 hours ago, idrive said:

 

Before covid, for the last 20 years we (wife and I) would pick out 5-6 PGAT events to go to each year.

 

Seems there was always a presence of the charity(s) represented there they were supporting for that particular Tourny.

 

 

 

 

 

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

That is just super.  Has little to do with the "carnival atmosphere" though don't you think?  Probably pretty unlikely to have an impact on playing conditions for the players too.

 

Alright, that's it. no more early morning posting for me before coffee.

 

It was not your post I intended to, meant to quote and respond to.

 

That makes two screw ups posting before coffee this morning... 

 

 

[subrew]

23 minutes ago, CaseyC said:

 

Over what time period will the $100 million be distributed?

 

I don't think that got mentioned.  But I do recall seeing some stuff about donations at the local levels for the events.  for

 

London:

https://www.golfmagic.com/liv-golf/liv-golf-announce-£1-million-donation-local-communities-uk

 

Portland:

 https://www.livgolf.com/news/liv-golf-announces-usd1-million-commitment-to-support-portland-charities

 

NJ:

https://www.livgolf.com/news/liv-golf-enhances-stem-education-adaptive-sports-new-jersey-charities

Edited August 3, 2022 by subrew

[mitchl]

2 hours ago, TM4me said:

If the LIV "Stars" cannot beat these 2nd string fields how are they ever going to compete in majors again - if they are allowed to participate that is.

 

It seems the LIV "Stars" aren't concerned about winning so why would/should I care?

 

I am surprised that Ancer or Johnson hasn’t won one of the events, TBH.   But the other LIV “stars” it is not surprising.   Most of them have had a noticeable fall from their top 10 statuses in the last year or two to outside the top 20 and falling somewhat rapidly.  Perhaps their OWGR has not fallen off quickly enough to show where they actually fall in the world.     DJ’s fall was also rapid from #2 to #17 in 7 months, but he is clearly still in league so to speak with the top 20.  He’s going to drop out of the top 20 in the next few weeks, but his game may still be there.

 

We are finding perhaps it is not just money, but that these stars can’t compete with today’s top 20, and they are concerned with who is coming in.  By getting to a closed 48 person league made up of a lot of junior champions tour members, they have a chance to win, and a guaranteed check coming in.   The danger for them is if a Morikawa or Smith does come in, they are definately going to have a harder time appearing weak in comparison.  Right now, given the weakness of the LIV field, they are not looking good when they can’t beat these older players who haven’t won in a while - but at least they don’t look totally ridiculous, which they might if the strongest in the PGA come in.   

 

I think PReed may care a bit more about winning, and why he may be taking the time to continue competing in Asia to be ready for the Sept/Oct stretch.   People think it is for OWGR, but realistically, it’s not going to do much at all in that respect - what it will do is give him reps before September.  

 

I think as far as “why should I care” - I don’t understand why LIV does a pretty good job of keeping the guys from saying they jumped just for the money… they are all pretty much on the same script with only Perez comparing it to winning the lottery…. But then LIV has the announcers repeatedly talk about the $4 m prize.   Of course there is no importance in the trophy… but maybe talk about the LIV ranking if there is such a thing.   I think the money turns a lot off.\

 

[jdl]

 

[PoolPond]

2 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

I hope this is the only time this interaction has to happen in this thread (as opposed to the 10000 times in the last thread), but a lot of people don't view LIV as true competition. Imagine if Amazon decided they wanted to get into the restaurant business but don't care about turning a profit, came into your town and started offering diner waitresses million dollar salaries and giving food away for free. Is that competition that results in a better product from the other restaurants, or is that just a branding effort for Amazon that a profit-driven business cannot possibly do anything about?

 A lot of people also did not view the PLL (Premier Lacrosse League) as true competition to the MLL (Major League Lacrosse) because, the PLL had crazy money from investors, was going to have travelling teams vs hometown teams, was going to incentivize the players with way more money that the MLL gave, health benefits and a piece of the pie that the MLL was unwilling to do. They were also going to tweak the game a bit by going to a smaller field, institute a 2 point shot and a few other things to appease the players and fans. Traditional lacrosse fans did not think any of it work and knew that the MLL would simply swallow up the upstart league in one bite. Many people in the lacrosse world figured that they'd exhaust all of their funds and fold because their business format was unsustainable.  Fast forward less than 2 years and there is no more MLL, after 25 years in business.  Wiped out by a brand new league that had better things to offer to the players and fans. Jay and the PGA Tour mucked this up from day one exactly like the MLL executives did. The Tour could still course correct but I don't think their egos will allow it.

[PhilsFanDrew]

13 minutes ago, mitchl said:

 

I am surprised that Ancer or Johnson hasn’t won one of the events, TBH.   But the other LIV “stars” it is not surprising.   Most of them have had a noticeable fall from their top 10 statuses in the last year or two to outside the top 20 and falling somewhat rapidly.  Perhaps their OWGR has not fallen off quickly enough to show where they actually fall in the world.     DJ’s fall was also rapid from #2 to #17 in 7 months, but he is clearly still in league so to speak with the top 20.  He’s going to drop out of the top 20 in the next few weeks, but his game may still be there.

 

We are finding perhaps it is not just money, but that these stars can’t compete with today’s top 20, and they are concerned with who is coming in.  By getting to a closed 48 person league made up of a lot of junior champions tour members, they have a chance to win, and a guaranteed check coming in.   The danger for them is if a Morikawa or Smith does come in, they are definately going to have a harder time appearing weak in comparison.  Right now, given the weakness of the LIV field, they are not looking good when they can’t beat these older players who haven’t won in a while - but at least they don’t look totally ridiculous, which they might if the strongest in the PGA come in.   

 

I think PReed may care a bit more about winning, and why he may be taking the time to continue competing in Asia to be ready for the Sept/Oct stretch.   People think it is for OWGR, but realistically, it’s not going to do much at all in that respect - what it will do is give him reps before September.  

 

I think as far as “why should I care” - I don’t understand why LIV does a pretty good job of keeping the guys from saying they jumped just for the money… they are all pretty much on the same script with only Perez comparing it to winning the lottery…. But then LIV has the announcers repeatedly talk about the $4 m prize.   Of course there is no importance in the trophy… but maybe talk about the LIV ranking if there is such a thing.   I think the money turns a lot off.\

 

 

It's important to remember the 3 courses that has hosted LIV events are not well known by the players and their caddies.  That is a big deal because playing at known venues where players and caddies have experience around the track takes a lot of variables and guess work out of the equation and allows the guy with the most talent/best skill that week to win.   

[Danielson]

1 minute ago, PoolPond said:

 A lot of people also did not view the PLL (Premier Lacrosse League) as true competition to the MLL (Major League Lacrosse) because, the PLL had crazy money from investors, was going to have travelling teams vs hometown teams, was going to incentivize the players with way more money that the MLL gave, health benefits and a piece of the pie that the MLL was unwilling to do. They were also going to tweak the game a bit by going to a smaller field, institute a 2 point shot and a few other things to appease the players and fans. Traditional lacrosse fans did not think any of it work and knew that the MLL would simply swallow up the upstart league in one bite. Many people in the lacrosse world figured that they'd exhaust all of their funds and fold because their business format was unsustainable.  Fast forward less than 2 years and there is no more MLL, after 25 years in business.  Wiped out by a brand new league that had better things to offer to the players and fans. Jay and the PGA Tour mucked this up from day one exactly like the MLL executives did. The Tour could still course correct but I don't think their egos will allow it.

 

I don't think these are similar situations. The PLL was created (by players) to build a better league for the players, since the MLL was never a full time job. The funding behind LIV wasn't provided to create a better golf league, it was given to become a branding effort for those funding it. I see your point, but I think the scale that we're seeing completely dwarfs the MLL/PLL split.

[TM4me]

1 hour ago, smashdn said:

 

 

They were playing legitimate golf, at least at the beginning of the year, before The Open. After a year of playing LIV exhibition matches where do you they could place in a major?  

[jdl]

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-phil-mickelson-sue-pga-tour-antitrust-fedex-cup-playoffs-11659544753?mod=hp_lead_pos10

Edited August 3, 2022 by jdl

[cardia10]

6 minutes ago, TM4me said:

 

They were playing legitimate golf, at least at the beginning of the year, before The Open. After a year of playing LIV exhibition matches where do you they could place in a major?  

I'd say we will find out early next year as the majors thus far have not refused to offer so many former winners spots. Will be interesting to see what happens at Augusta as I'd say most majors will follow their lead.

[Ghost of Snead]

1 minute ago, jdl said:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-phil-mickelson-sue-pga-tour-antitrust-fedex-cup-playoffs-11659544753?mod=hp_lead_pos10

 

Explains why no one saw him after February - what little respect left I had for him just evaporated. What goes around, comes around - Billy Walters.

 

Revoke his lifetime membership. 

[jdl]

Pat Perez wants to play MORE GOLF!!!!

 

 

[smashdn]

14 minutes ago, TM4me said:

 

They were playing legitimate golf, at least at the beginning of the year, before The Open. After a year of playing LIV exhibition matches where do you they could place in a major?  

 

Same.  They would still have a chance to win it.  I think we tend to over rate the impact of competition level when it comes to golf.  I think it is pretty clear that the competition on the DP tour is not as good as that of the PGA Tour but would we be surprised if a full-time DP player won a major?  I wouldn't be depending upon the player.

 

I tend to feel it is more about the player beating the course than the player beating other players.  You just go out and strive to play your very best golf you can against the course.  The only time I would really let the other players into my thinking would be around hole 12 or so of the last round just so at that point I knew where I stood and what sort of lay ahead of me.  If you are way out of it you know you are likely beat and no real need to strategize, just keep grinding for the best score possible.  If you are in contention to win that is when you might start playing for certain scores on holes.  Obviously no sense in taking on undue risks coming down the stretch if you are leading with no one else really contending.  Just ride it on home.

[Krt22]

49 minutes ago, jdl said:

 

lol Pat Perez is the guy who get's an A on a group project while contributing zero

[betarhoalphadelta]

3 hours ago, cardia10 said:

 

The whole argument for and against LIV is pretty clear cut. Most of the over 45 crowd is against it because music, fun, alternate formats and most of the under 45 crowd loves it because, music, fun and alternate formats. The game is stale and there are only so many ways it can revived. On the course there isn't much that can be changed but around and off the course there can be change. It is very much the Not In My Back Yard argument. Hard to also argue sponsorship as both the PGA and LPGA utilizes those same sources.

 

 

I think the PGAT could stand a dose of fun. I think some alternate announcing formats might be fun. Like the Manningcast for Monday Night Football, it was a different experience and one that I think is a nice change. They tried to do it for golf, but Joe Buck? Sorry, not interested. Trying to inject a little fun into the broadcast would be good too. 

 

Music I could take or leave. I realize that music is not "traditional" for golf, but nearly every other sport has players performing with crowd noise, distractions, etc. I don't know that I see how it improves the product, but I'm not so traditional that I'd be against it... Hole 16 at the WM might be fun to have "walk up" music like batters coming to the plate in baseball. 

 

But alternate formats? Here's where you lose me. I don't think the format of LIV is different enough from the PGAT to make a difference. Shotgun start and 54 holes? Neither one really changes anything at all, especially when you send the leaders off 1 for the final round. Team play? It might be interesting if the teams actually played together and against each other directly, and that there was some sort of head-to-head rivalry, but it's just an extra payoff for the teams that do best in individual stroke play. 

 

Some of the golf I watch on YT is a different format. EAL doing match play, or the multiple iterations of the "Breaking" series, either EAL trying to break a score on a tour setup or 4 random golfers trying to do the same. Some of the Shiels stuff like having a Euro tour player play 9 holes with a budget golf set off Amazon (or somewhere like that) that was basically driver/5i/7i/9i/PW/putter.

 

But LIV isn't doing anything that interesting. The shotgun start reduces a single day of a tournament to a ~5 hour investment, but with 3 rounds that's 15 hours. And the first two rounds, it's just showing a bunch of players hitting shots jockeying for position going into the final round. And like the PGAT, the format is all designed to lead up to the back 9 of the final round. That's where the drama comes in. I'll watch 4 days of PGAT (in reality it's more like "watch"; it's just background while WFH on Thurs/Fri), but my wife will only bother to sit down and see the end of broadcast Sunday if it's close. 

 

I think the alternate formats aren't really alternate formats. It's a slight tweak to the existing format, not an alternate. 

[smashdn]

52 minutes ago, mitchl said:

given the weakness of the LIV field, 

 

Using OWGR as a barometer, the fields have not been weak.  The Portland event had a SOF of 146.  Comparatively, against the lesser attended DP and PGAT events that week it had the highest SOF of any professional golf tournament.

 

I don't know what the SOF was for Bedminster event.  I haven't found it out on the innerwebs.  My guess is lower as all those guys' OWGR's are dropping.  Also not sure how it compared to the Rocket Mortgage and the Hero Open.  My guess is perhaps between the two.

[betarhoalphadelta]

29 minutes ago, jdl said:

Pat Perez wants to play MORE GOLF!!!!

 

 

 

Anyone have an actual link to the filing? I'd like to read it. 

[Llortamaisey]

I sure hope we don’t find out that the Masters colluded with the PGA Tour to uphold Phil’s suspension for their tournament. They’re better than that and I’d hate to see them get pulled down by the PGA Tour. 

[Danielson]

18 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Same.  They would still have a chance to win it.  I think we tend to over rate the impact of competition level when it comes to golf.  I think it is pretty clear that the competition on the DP tour is not as good as that of the PGA Tour but would we be surprised if a full-time DP player won a major?  I wouldn't be depending upon the player.

 

I tend to feel it is more about the player beating the course than the player beating other players.  You just go out and strive to play your very best golf you can against the course.  The only time I would really let the other players into my thinking would be around hole 12 or so of the last round just so at that point I knew where I stood and what sort of lay ahead of me.  If you are way out of it you know you are likely beat and no real need to strategize, just keep grinding for the best score possible.  If you are in contention to win that is when you might start playing for certain scores on holes.  Obviously no sense in taking on undue risks coming down the stretch if you are leading with no one else really contending.  Just ride it on home.

 

I think this is definitely going to hold true for the top guys, not sure about the mid/lower levels. DJ is a certified killer and has been for a long time. He could go play mini golf for a year and could still come back and contend in majors. For someone like James Piot, I'm not sure that he's going to be able to do that. I don't think we'll see anything dramatic where guys just flat out forget how to compete, but I can't imagine that being able to play all year with nothing truly on the line is good for pro golfers game. I think over time they'll have that thought deep in the back of their mind that says "ah dang, hit a bad shot there... good thing I can't miss a cut/good thing I still get paid".

[maverick]

So now Phil Mickelson and a group of golfers are suing the PGA. liv and Phil Mickelson want to ruin the PGA. Anyone who was OK with the Saudis should take another look at what is going on and it's not good. 

[mitchl]

9 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Using OWGR as a barometer, the fields have not been weak.  The Portland event had a SOF of 146.  Comparatively, against the lesser attended DP and PGAT events that week it had the highest SOF of any professional golf tournament.

 

I don't know what the SOF was for Bedminster event.  I haven't found it out on the innerwebs.  My guess is lower as all those guys' OWGR's are dropping.  Also not sure how it compared to the Rocket Mortgage and the Hero Open.  My guess is perhaps between the two.

 

Sof was 214 for Rocket.   Bedminster was just a little higher, I think around 150, to the same as Portland.    After #16, the areas are banded, and most players stayed within the band they were in, but if they moved down one, it’s just one point.   But adding in the new players added one or two for each of them as sub #200 players moved out of the field of 48.

 

For PGA, sub 180 SoF is just a few tournaments- I think other than alternate events it is under 3 stops since Jan below 180.   Here is a link to the event list.   

http://www.owgr.com/events?pageNo=1&pageSize=400&tour=PGAT&year=2022

[TM4me]

I say this as a (former) DJ fan - he hasn't made the crucial putts in a few years now - since his November 2020 Masters win.  I think that comes down to performing under pressure.  He hit some great approach shots all week at the The Open but couldn't make the putts.   I feel that is the difference between playing legitimate tournament golf and exhibition golf.  

[TM4me]

13 minutes ago, Danielson said:

 

I think this is definitely going to hold true for the top guys, not sure about the mid/lower levels. DJ is a certified killer and has been for a long time. He could go play mini golf for a year and could still come back and contend in majors. For someone like James Piot, I'm not sure that he's going to be able to do that. I don't think we'll see anything dramatic where guys just flat out forget how to compete, but I can't imagine that being able to play all year with nothing truly on the line is good for pro golfers game. I think over time they'll have that thought deep in the back of their mind that says "ah dang, hit a bad shot there... good thing I can't miss a cut/good thing I still get paid".

 

I say this as a (former) DJ fan - he hasn't made the crucial putts.  I think that comes down to performing under pressure.  He hit some great approach shots all week at the The Open but couldn't make the putts.   I feel that is the difference between playing legitimate tournament golf and exhibition golf.  

Edited August 3, 2022 by TM4me

[smashdn]

2 minutes ago, mitchl said:

 

Sof was 214 for Rocket.   Bedminster was just a little higher, I think around 150, to the same as Portland.    After #16, the areas are banded, and most players stayed within the band they were in, but if they moved down one, it’s just one point.   But adding in the new players added one or two for each of them as sub #200 players moved out of the field of 48.

 

For PGA, sub 180 SoF is just a few tournaments- I think other than alternate events it is under 3 stops since Jan below 180.   Here is a link to the event list.   

http://www.owgr.com/events?pageNo=1&pageSize=400&tour=PGAT&year=2022

 

I was way off then on the DP Tour.  17 sof.  KFT was a 4.

[jdl]

33 minutes ago, smashdn said:

 

Same.  They would still have a chance to win it.  I think we tend to over rate the impact of competition level when it comes to golf.  I think it is pretty clear that the competition on the DP tour is not as good as that of the PGA Tour but would we be surprised if a full-time DP player won a major?  I wouldn't be depending upon the player.

 

I'd probably be a little surprised, who's the best "full-time DP player"? Ryan Fox? Meronk?

[oikos1]

10 minutes ago, maverick said:

So now Phil Mickelson and a group of golfers are suing the PGA. liv and Phil Mickelson want to ruin the PGA. Anyone who was OK with the Saudis should take another look at what is going on and it's not good. 

Phil was most likely going to sue the PGA Tour regardless.  He was upset that the Tour wouldn't give the players a bigger piece of the pie and he wanted some degree of control over his media rights.  PGA Tour knew this would happen sooner or later.  The LIV made it possible sooner.  And the PGA Tour could have done something about that as well.  None of this happened overnight.

[Ghost of Snead]

1 hour ago, jdl said:

 

https://www.wsj.com/articles/liv-golf-phil-mickelson-sue-pga-tour-antitrust-fedex-cup-playoffs-11659544753?mod=hp_lead_pos10

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/exclusive-phil-mickelson-on-liv-golf-and-his-pga-tour-status

 

SI/MR: What do you expect your status with the PGA Tour to be going forward?

Mickelson: “I’m certainly grateful for the 30-plus years that I’ve had with the PGA Tour. The many memories and experiences that I’ve shared. And I’d like to think that I contributed to the PGA Tour over that time. And I have earned a lifetime membership (a minimum of 20 victories and 15 years on the PGA Tour). I’m hopeful that stays the same. I also feel it’s important for any player to have the right to play wherever they want, in addition to me being able to keep my lifetime membership.’’

 

I'm so grateful for my 30+ years on Tour and how much I contributed that I decided to recruit players to join a competing tour and recoup those contributions. 

 

 

[mitchl]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

https://www.si.com/golf/news/exclusive-phil-mickelson-on-liv-golf-and-his-pga-tour-status

 

SI/MR: What do you expect your status with the PGA Tour to be going forward?

Mickelson: “I’m certainly grateful for the 30-plus years that I’ve had with the PGA Tour. The many memories and experiences that I’ve shared. And I’d like to think that I contributed to the PGA Tour over that time. And I have earned a lifetime membership (a minimum of 20 victories and 15 years on the PGA Tour). I’m hopeful that stays the same. I also feel it’s important for any player to have the right to play wherever they want, in addition to me being able to keep my lifetime membership.’’

 

I'm so grateful for my 30+ years on Tour and how much I contributed that I decided to recruit players to join a competing tour and recoup those contributions. 

 

 

 

 

For Phil, it did make more sense for him to not resign, because he is in a different boat than everyone else, in that he could theoretically just pick one or a few tournaments a year and have no minimum applied to him.   But also, it sure looked like he would sue.

 

It was also clear that they needed some others to keep the memberships too so they could sue.

 

What was interesting right off the bat is that some resigned as soon as they signed with LIV and I think it may have been DJ who said he didn’t want to be part of any legal action.    Hats off to DJ, I think of all the players he has been up front on what he wanted out of this and he didn’t want to battle with the guys he left behind in the PGA.

[lowndes]

41 minutes ago, betarhoalphadelta said:

 

Anyone have an actual link to the filing? I'd like to read it. 

 

https://storage.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.cand.398834/gov.uscourts.cand.398834.1.0_2.pdf

 

See above.  A couple great litigators representing the players.  I use to work with one of them and think very highly of him.  It'll be interesting to see who the PGA Tour chooses to represent them.  I've got my suspicions as to who they will choose.  Interesting in seeing how the legal battle plays out.