LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[Dutch1008]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

I disagree ( of course ). The stuffiness as you call it - to me looks like the price  of admission.  I love that you have to act like somebody - dress at least remotely like somebody and that certain things are taboo ( hats inside , spitting on greens , yelling like an idiot ,music on course during competition etc).     
 

why does everything on earth have to be dumbed down.  Pardon the phrase.  I’m not calling you stupid. You know I’m not.  I respect your posts even though I regularly disagree. But the phrase seems apt.  I don’t buy the idea that these ideals are barriers to getting into the game.  They’re not except for attitudes.  Those who don’t like it shouldn’t join.   I don’t really like football.  So I don’t join and play any rec league football.  And I’m big and fast. I could do it for my age group.  
I also don’t buy it on issues of monetary status.  I belong to a $100 a month semi private.  That’s a family membership.  You can’t play any game that cheap.  It’s not grand. But it’s far from a dump.  There’s a Donald Ross 30 min from me that's $700 upfront and $150 a month.  It has bent greens and some of the best Mountain View’s you’ll see. 
 

i think In general  a lack of self respect , decorum and respect for any tradition is a bad thing.  Change in the name of progress instead of need is usually a backwards move in the end.  Progress only comes from necessity.  Where’s the need ? 

There is a pretty big gap between Judge Smails at Bushwood and a music festival at Coachella. 

 

Requiring pants when it's 95 outside doesn't make you classy, just stupid. I've seen plenty of men with tucked in collared shirts that still look like sloppy bums. 

 

I do appreciate some/most of the existing golf etiquette/tradition. Yelling "mashed potatoes" is stupid, but there is nothing wrong with music on the course if you clear it with your playing partners and it's played low enough that other groups can't hear it. Goodness, this is a sport in which they serve drinks while playing and a good percentage of the participants are actively gambling. It's supposed to be a fun time. We're not talking about tea with the Queen.   

[So_Cal]

18 minutes ago, Soloman1 said:

 

The PGA Tour has 47 events scheduled for 2023 with massive purse increases.

 

Can you tell me what was destroyed?

In the post Tiger era golf is not as exciting.  Then you split the non exciting players between the tour and an exhibition series.  LIV is unwatchable and the tour barely watchable.  

[jdl]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

How can the plaintiffs assert that the pga tour has a monopoly when

 

Within months they organized a rival tour with 8 events, half in the US, and expanding to 14 events within one year. 
 

And they have hired a large percent of their players from the pga tour. 
 

The liv itself is proof there is no monopoly. 
 

The tour may have had an issue if liv was one or two events that the pga tour forbade players to participate in. But clearly an entire rival league is something that the pga tour would suspend/ban players who joined. 

 

 

Edited August 3, 2022 by jdl

[PhilWhitUK]

My take is this:

 

PGA Tour relies on attracting sponsorship.  It does that by trying to ensure that it has enough players with status (world rankings) in events to get sponsors.  So, to make that more likely one of the membership rules is that you have to play enough events but equally not play in events that could compete, therefore taking away sponsorship (because sponsors want the good players).

 

If you wish to play on the PGA Tour, that is what you sign up to.

 

The PGA Tour is not acting as a monopoly in the sense that it stops golfers from earning a living on other tours or in other ways.  It is just saying that if you want to play on the PGA you have to support it.  
 

So, players who have said they wish to earn more money for less events are not being constrained.  However, it would appear that is not in fact what they want.  They would seem to want to be able to pick and chose which events they play in, without honouring an agreement they have with the PGA to ensure the tour stays strong.

 

If I were the PGA Tour I would also feel wronged and be confident of my position.

[dalehead]

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

[CDM]

1 hour ago, jdl said:

 

 

 

Since most that left were above Joel in rankings I would say the same, it just moves him up spots.

 

Just as the Rickie deal, love Rickie but has played so bad, if they did not "adjust" the list he would be outside the top 125 and would a KFT player..... OR  LIV  🤣

Edited August 3, 2022 by CDM

[oughtaquit]

6 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

Amen. I have a law degree but still don’t know dinkers about antitrust. It’s a specialized world. But we all know what opinions are like, and everybody has one. 

[Ghost of Snead]

8 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

 

Just because you have a law degree doesn't mean you passed the bar and actually know what you're talking about.

[glk]

4 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

Since most that left were above Joel in rankings I would say the same, it just moves him up spots.

 

Just as the Rickie deal, love Rickie but has played so bad, if they did not "adjust" the list he would be outside the top 125 and would a KFT player..... OR  LIV  🤣

Rickie is exempt on tour thru next season due to his players win and 2 following wins the last being Phoenix.   He is in danger this year of missing the playoffs like he did last year.

[Ghost of Snead]

14 minutes ago, jdl said:

 

 

 

You can add in that the PGA Tour has not stopped anyone from playing on the LIV Tour and the "independent contractors" that moved to LIV signed contracts with LIV.

[bladehunter]

17 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

There is a pretty big gap between Judge Smails at Bushwood and a music festival at Coachella. 

 

Requiring pants when it's 95 outside doesn't make you classy, just stupid. I've seen plenty of men with tucked in collared shirts that still look like sloppy bums. 

 

I do appreciate some/most of the existing golf etiquette/tradition. Yelling "mashed potatoes" is stupid, but there is nothing wrong with music on the course if you clear it with your playing partners and it's played low enough that other groups can't hear it. Goodness, this is a sport in which they serve drinks while playing and a good percentage of the participants are actively gambling. It's supposed to be a fun time. We're not talking about tea with the Queen.   

Eh.  Subjective.  Todays material pants aren’t hot in fact everyone should consider them for sun protection.    And yes. I wear pants most of the time at work. I na non ac shop - where it regularly is 90 plus inside.  Why ?  Welding slag balls hurt - and the UV burns from  welding is real.  That being said. I’ve never advocated for club amateurs to be forced into pants.  
 

music on the course isn’t a victimless crime. If you.clan hear it in your cart. I can hear it on the next hole over.  How else would I know it goes on ? 
 

im not pro alcohol on the course. So we can agree there. Leave the beers at the bar.  This would probably help a lot of the other behaviors.  
 

Gambling.  That doesn’t cross reference with any of the others. Music pants or alcohol.  

[bladehunter]

12 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

How does that make any difference?  I know several personal injury attorneys that haven’t a clue how to get out of a marriage.  😂.  

[CDM]

15 minutes ago, jdl said:

 

 

 

That Tweet is dead on.  I saw they filed suit over lunch and thought exactly what is stated.   I think the issue will be for both parties is the exclusion aspect.  It could hurt both.

[getitdaily]

Anyone else notice how happy sheriff booth is now that he can post instead of just review and approve/deny posts?

 

I think in thr 400+ page thread he became the kid outside the candy store who turned to licking the window in hopes it tasted like candy while he watched the cool kids inside enjoying the delights.

[Krt22]

42 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

I assume it may boil down to if “non-compete” agreements, in this case, are enforceable for pga tour players as independent contractors 

 

But, I think the primary reason the non-compete would be considered anticompetitive and use of monopoly power, would be if it prevented the players from working in their field 

 

But, in this case, they are working. For more money than they made before!

 

So, I’d think the tour can argue, go work, you just can’t work here ; )

 

 

I just don't get how the whole monopoly thing comes into play when they are essentially seeking simultaneous employment, as a full time employee of LIV and as an contractor with the PGA tour. I work in a competitive tech field, I can't go contract for a competitor without risking being canned (while also exposing myself  to potential legal action due to IP). To the same point, we would never hire a contractor who was still employed at a competitor

[Krt22]

24 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

Internet forums would cease to exist if you had to hold a degree in whatever subject is being discussed. A lot of internet lawyers, doctors, engineers, and epidemiologists would be aimlessly lost.

[bscinstnct]

29 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

 

Lawsuit be like,

 

Your honor, they are monopoly and destroyed me!

 

Ok, sir, well, how much did you make before they banned you?

 

$50,000

 

And how much do you make now?

 

Uh, $400,000

 

Case dismissed

 

🤣

[Kenbone]

2 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Lawsuit be like,

 

Your honor, they are monopoly and destroyed me!

 

Ok, sir, well, how much did you make before they banned you?

 

$50,000

 

And how much do you make now?

 

Uh, $400,000

 

Case dismissed

 

🤣

This exactly. How are you gonna argue that the tour is keeping you from earning when you're literally getting paid more than when you were on the tour??

 

 

[Krt22]

1 minute ago, Kenbone said:

This exactly. How are you gonna argue that the tour is keeping you from earning when you're literally getting paid more than when you were on the tour??

 

 

Have you seen the CPI? It's a dog eat dog world and we gotta hustle with 2 jobs.

[Ghost of Snead]

2 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Lawsuit be like,

 

Your honor, they are monopoly and destroyed me!

 

Ok, sir, well, how much did you make before they banned you?

 

$50,000

 

And how much do you make now?

 

Uh, $400,000

 

Case dismissed

 

🤣

 

More like ... 

 

PGA Tour lawyer - "Mr. Mickelson, according to court documents you owed $150 million in gambling debts before you joined the LIV Tour" 

 

Phil - "Yes, that's not true - it was actually $140 million. Ask Billy Walters. 

 

PGA Tour lawyer - "Did the LIV Tour pay you $200 million to poach players from the PGA Tour and help write their operating agreement ?"

 

Phil - "Yes, that's true - do you think I'm a good poacher ?"

 

PGA Tour lawyer - "Is your gambling debt paid ?" 

 

Phil - "Yes, ask Billy Walters"

 

Judge - "This lawsuit is a frivolous joke - dismissed" 

[Dutch1008]

19 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 

Gambling.  That doesn’t cross reference with any of the others. Music pants or alcohol.  

 

Pretty sure gambling and alcohol are commonly thought of as vices and at various points in our history have been illegal and the exclusive domain of organized crime. I think maybe the Amish and the residents from the fictional city in Footloose are the only groups that would include shorts and music in the same domain as alcohol and gambling. To each their own.  

 

[bcjim]

How many of these guys actually WANT to play at least the liv (14?) + PGAT minimum (15?)?

 

The easy solution might be raise the minimum or declare majors as not counting toward the minimum. They are "sanctioned" but they are not "tour run events"

 

33 events then, at least? And half will feel like pro bono work? They'll resign on their own.  Some of course, have and good riddance.

[3whacker]

56 minutes ago, dalehead said:

I wish the moderators had the ability to restrict posts about the merits of the LIV lawsuit to posters who actually have a law degree.

today its the law, tomorrow its medical advice, then we start talking about swing advice...become your own moderator and decide what content actually has some merit and what content is just a waste of bandwith...

[CDM]

14 minutes ago, PhilWhitUK said:

My take is this:

 

PGA Tour relies on attracting sponsorship.  It does that by trying to ensure that it has enough players with status (world rankings) in events to get sponsors.  So, to make that more likely one of the membership rules is that you have to play enough events but equally not play in events that could compete, therefore taking away sponsorship (because sponsors want the good players).

 

If you wish to play on the PGA Tour, that is what you sign up to.

 

The PGA Tour is not acting as a monopoly in the sense that it stops golfers from earning a living on other tours or in other ways.  It is just saying that if you want to play on the PGA you have to support it.  
 

So, players who have said they wish to earn more money for less events are not being constrained.  However, it would appear that is not in fact what they want.  They would seem to want to be able to pick and chose which events they play in, without honouring an agreement they have with the PGA to ensure the tour stays strong.

 

If I were the PGA Tour I would also feel wronged and be confident of my position.

 

Good post.  NOT an Attorney. 

 

I think the area the courts will focus on is the "earn a living" side if that is the merit for case on Anti-trust. 

 

I know at The Open the US Gov had already been looking into how the "agreement" is setup and if it violates Anti-trust laws in the US.  Never heard more on that?

 

Again not an attorney, but have 2 that work for my firm. We hire IDC for work a lot and it is very clear from a legal stance we can not tell them how to make a living. We can define specific scope - tasks - deadlines - etc. Call it 15 events.  If they meet said requirements within said time of the contract we can not tell them they can not work on the side during that time.  

 

The one thing I do know, sadly for a fact as we got nailed in this market of trying to find people, we can not tell them they can not "moon light" as known commonly.  Damages can only be proven if they do not fulfill said agreement or should we provide the ability to do said work. If they are "go getters" and fulfill our contract and do something on the side we can not say anything or do nothing about it.  

 

It seems odd to me as whole as the PGAT does not pay any player, you "dig it out of the dirt" as stated. So no compensation at all.  The players state they independent contractors.  The PGAT makes the players pay $ to play in the events (I think it is $500 entry fee or something).   So it has me wondering by telling while members they can not play in other events if that is legal.

 

Given courts rule based on law when it comes to anti-trust it is make me wonder how this will go.  Per federal regulations our contracts have to be in compliance with the federal requirements so know that side, but we are talking a "sport" for entertainment.  That could the part that is different is "entertainment".

 

I think regardless the PGAT will win if they loose honestly.    The court could rule it was a violation of anti-trust laws. It will not attack the PGAT it will just state the contract violates the anti-trust laws and is invalid, probably nothing more.

 

So the PGAT still wins in my mind legally as they don't have to redo the contract with said players as that is their choice on who plays on the PGAT or does not. 

[GolfGrouch]

Has this antitrust lawsuit against the PGA Tour changed your opinion of the LIV players named as plaintiffs?

[tw_focus]

I'm not sure what's going on with all these legal mumbo jumbo, but Liv Golf is the best tour on TV and I'm happy to watch it. Can't wait for the next event.

 

We like the golf.

[Ghost of Snead]

4 minutes ago, tw_focus said:

I'm not sure what's going on with all these legal mumbo jumbo, but Liv Golf is the best tour on TV and I'm happy to watch it. Can't wait for the next event.

 

We like the golf.

 

It's not on TV - that's the PGA Tour you're watching. 

[Oneput]

How come the LIV players are suing the Tour individually and not form a class (a class action lawsuit)?

[Ronnie Mundt]

1 hour ago, Krt22 said:

I just don't get how the whole monopoly thing comes into play when they are essentially seeking simultaneous employment, as a full time employee of LIV and as an contractor with the PGA tour. I work in a competitive tech field, I can't go contract for a competitor without risking being canned (while also exposing myself  to potential legal action due to IP). To the same point, we would never hire a contractor who was still employed at a competitor

Where does it say that LIV players are employees of LIV? I haven’t read that anywhere. Just because an agreement was signed regarding compensation doesn’t mean these guys are employees and that LIV is their employer. I’m a lawyer and have read about 80 pages of the complaint. It’s interesting, that’s all I will say. It will be even more interesting once discovery occurs.

[Titleist99]

3 hours ago, mitchl said:

And wow… are they speaking their minds.   Now that the lawsuit has been filed, Zach, DL3, Billy Ho and others are being very clear that this is not a suit against some company, it is a direct attack on the individual players on the PGA Tour and their livelihood.   

 

Q:  Wonder if this will have any impact on the any players in the hopper and ready to depart after the Playoffs.    My guess with the full battle lines drawn out, that it will take a bit more to cross that line to the LIV side.    On one side you’ve got some of the most personable golfers making the argument for the PGA Tour, and on the other side, you have a lot of guys who didn’t get along well even before LIV.   Which side is Hidecki and Cam Smith on?

Cam Smith.....already bought and paid for..