LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[bekgolf]

12 minutes ago, Oneput said:

How come the LIV players are suing the Tour individually and not form a class (a class action lawsuit)?

Hoping to get one judge out of many to rule in their favor and then use that as a basis of law for the future?

 

It's insane to sue the tour when a player violated a contract they agreed to.  None of it makes any sense.

[bladehunter]

1 hour ago, Dutch1008 said:

 

Pretty sure gambling and alcohol are commonly thought of as vices and at various points in our history have been illegal and the exclusive domain of organized crime. I think maybe the Amish and the residents from the fictional city in Footloose are the only groups that would include shorts and music in the same domain as alcohol and gambling. To each their own.  

 

Lol shorts are just silly looking. I don’t truly care if someone wants to wear them. I own some too. But pro players shouldn’t need to wear them.  Baseball players don’t wear shorts, neither do football players. And they do far more strenuous activity in the 95 plus heat. 
 

I’m not a teetotaler - I just don’t see how you can drink in the aforementioned 95 degree heat and remain focused on the activity at hand.  I think too many go to the course to do other things.  I go to play for score.  Not for show ,  Not listen to music. Not drink and not really to socialize.  Although I will socialize  to be polite - if confronted with it.  😅.  
 

gambling is a pathway to get to paid. It goes directly with my purpose for being on the course .  Shoot a score. Get paid. That’s fun. All other stuff cost money.  Isn’t fun and doesn’t interest me. I just wish more wanted to actually play golf. And watch pro golf for that matter. Seems like everyone wants a party.  

[bekgolf]

2 minutes ago, bladehunter said:

 

I’m not a teetotaler - I just don’t see how you can drink in the aforementioned 95 degree heat and remain focused on the activity at hand.  I think too many go to the course to do other things.  I go to play for score.  Not for show ,  Not listen to music. Not drink and not really to socialize.  Although I will socialize  to be polite - if confronted with it.  😅.  
 

gambling is a pathway to get to paid. It goes directly with my purpose for being on the course .  Shoot a score. Get paid. That’s fun.

 

Ha!  I don't drink while playing golf.  Hate even the lowest volume music that can be heard, I came to golf, not to get drunk, stoned, and listen to music.  All of that can wait for later. 

 

 

[Frankensteins Monster]

40 minutes ago, tw_focus said:

I'm not sure what's going on with all these legal mumbo jumbo, but Liv Golf is the best tour on TV and I'm happy to watch it. Can't wait for the next event.

 

We like the golf.

Liv isn’t on tv. 

[Krt22]

14 minutes ago, Ronnie Mundt said:

Where does it say that LIV players are employees of LIV? I haven’t read that anywhere. Just because an agreement was signed regarding compensation doesn’t mean these guys are employees and that LIV is their employer. I’m a lawyer and have read about 80 pages of the complaint. It’s interesting, that’s all I will say. It will be even more interesting once discovery occurs.

I am not the lawyer, but what else do you call it when have a signed contract that spells guaranteed compensation in exchange for your time/labor over a span of multiple years? And when the entity compensating you is also paying your travel expenses much like an employer does when travel is required for one to carry out the job they are being paid to do? Are NFL/NBA/MLB players considered employees of their respective teams?

 

Very different model than the tour, where the players get to decide which tournaments they play in, they cover all of their own expenses, they only are compensated if you make the cut and win.

[Dutch1008]

1 minute ago, bladehunter said:

Lol shorts are just silly looking. I don’t truly care if someone wants to wear them. I own some too. But pro players shouldn’t need to wear them.  Baseball players don’t wear shorts, neither do football players. And they do far more strenuous activity in the 95 plus heat. 
 

I’m not a teetotaler - I just don’t see how you can drink in the aforementioned 95 degree heat and remain focused on the activity at hand.  I think too many go to the course to do other things.  I go to play for score.  Not for show ,  Not listen to music. Not drink and not really to socialize.  Although I will socialize  to be polite - if confronted with it.  😅.  
 

gambling is a pathway to get to paid. It goes directly with my purpose for being on the course .  Shoot a score. Get paid. That’s fun. All other stuff cost money.  Isn’t fun and doesn’t interest me. I just wish more wanted to actually play golf. And watch pro golf for that matter. Seems like everyone wants a party.  

You're talking to a dude that mostly plays as a single. I go out to improve and compete against myself. Because I mostly play as a single, I get paired with all kinds of people who have different motivations for playing. I've found that I can get along with most of them regardless of their reasons for participating. Usually just comes down to the universal rule, "don't be a dick". Play fast and be respectful of the other people on the course. It's that simple. 

 

Also, motivations can change. If I'm on a muni with my brother, we're typically having some drinks and focused on relaxing. If were paying up to play somewhere nice, the drinks typically disappear and we're competing. Sometimes for money, sometimes not. There isn't a right way to play and its presumptuous to believe so. If what you value is serious play with some action on the side, a private club or nicer public is typically the place for that. But don't show up at the $30 muni expecting people to act like its Pine Valley.      

[farmer]

I will be interested to see what the Masters.  They are accountable to no one, don't have to give a fig about opinions and their members have enough money to start "The Masters Network".  

[cardia10]

4 hours ago, bscinstnct said:

How can the plaintiffs assert that the pga tour has a monopoly when

 

Within months they organized a rival tour with 8 events, half in the US, and expanding to 14 events within one year. 
 

And they have hired a large percent of their players from the pga tour. 
 

The liv itself is proof there is no monopoly. 
 

The tour may have had an issue if liv was one or two events that the pga tour forbade players to participate in. But clearly an entire rival league is something that the pga tour would suspend/ban players who joined. 

The tour’s action toward players that wanted to compete on both and the tours hostile action and threats to current players show it. The tour has also allowed multiple players play other tours while events were going on without a formal release. This comes directly from a player who has done it. It is hard to selectively enforce rules when a true competitor shows up. The tours actions are the textbook definition of a monopoly and doing anything and everything to protect that monopoly. I think there will also be emails released showing the tour essentially begging tv networks not to negotiate with LIV. It will be ugly for all involved I’m afraid. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by cardia10

[cardia10]

1 hour ago, bekgolf said:

Hoping to get one judge out of many to rule in their favor and then use that as a basis of law for the future?

 

It's insane to sue the tour when a player violated a contract they agreed to.  None of it makes any sense.

There is no formal contract. You are a card carrying 1099 paid member. You are not an employee of the tour as the tour is somehow now claiming after claiming independent contractor for years. The tour has had their cake and ate it too for years due to the lack of competition. There are rules you are supposed to follow. They will show that the tour doesn’t follow it’s own rules so how can they selectively enforce some rules. It will be ugly. 

Edited August 4, 2022 by cardia10

[bekgolf]

4 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

There is no formal contract. You are a card carrying 1099 paid member. You are not an employee of the tour as the tour is somehow now claiming after claiming independent contractor for years. The tour has had their cake and ate it too for years due to the lack of competition. There are rules you are supposed to follow. They will show that the tour doesn’t follow it’s own rules so how can they selectively enforce some rules. It will be ugly. 

 

No contract signing to be a member of the tour?  Hard to believe.  What are the membership rules?

[Ghost of Snead]

6 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

There is no formal contract. You are a card carrying 1099 member. There are rules you are supposed to follow. They will show that the tour doesn’t follow it’s own rules so how can they selectively enforce some rules. It will be ugly. 

 

The PGA Tour requires that players sign a membership agreement with a non-compete clause. You can bet that membership agreement has been vetted by the Tour's lawyers to see if will stand up in court. This was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread so best we let the lawyers hash it out.

[cardia10]

2 minutes ago, bekgolf said:

 

No contract signing to be a member of the tour?  Hard to believe.  What are the membership rules?

You are not an employee of the tour but you agree to certain rules. Just like any other 1099 contractor in the job market. I think the tour has forgotten that it represents the players and is a partnership but historically, the players and caddies have been treated a little 2nd class by tour leadership. Basically they are performers and they shouldn't worry about how the tour makes financial decisions and trust of tour leadership has been lost. Now the LIV comes along, players trust former players and huge money always helps. 

[bfactor]

Reading between the lines with my tinfoil hat and magnifying glass, this seems mostly like a preemptive measure to ensure that the handful of LIV players who are good enough won't be banned from participating in majors.

[cardia10]

3 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

The PGA Tour requires that players sign a membership agreement with a non-compete clause. You can bet that membership agreement has been vetted by the Tour's lawyers to see if will stand up in court. This was discussed ad nauseam in the other thread so best we let the lawyers hash it out.

Wouldn’t call it a non compete as multiple players hold multiple tour memberships, the tour just historically haven’t been intimidated by these other tours. I’m afraid the lawsuit will show that the tour didn’t enforce many of their own rules about opposite field events but chose to try to enforce for LIV. Remember, many players followed the rules exactly and were denied releases while other players in the past for other tours were given releases. 

[Ghost of Snead]

2 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

Wouldn’t call it a non compete as multiple players hold multiple tour memberships, the tour just historically haven’t been intimidated by these other tours. I’m afraid the lawsuit will show that the tour didn’t enforce many of their own rules about opposite field events but chose to try to enforce for LIV. Remember, many players followed the rules exactly and were denied releases while other players in the past for other tours were given releases. 

 

Do you mean like the release Graeme McDowell was granted from the SGL for the Irish Open ? Getting a release to play in an affiliated tour event is miles different than getting one for an exhibition series which is not an established tour. And I really don't think the PGA Tour is intimidated by the SGL as they haven't backed down on anything to this point. 

[oikos1]

4 hours ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

This is the intellectual leap that I'm having trouble with as well.  Plaintiffs are asserting that the PGA Tour's "monopoly" has destroyed competition, while at the same time Plaintiffs are indeed playing on a competitive tour and making lots of money while doing so.  For a very similar reason I think the monopsony arguments ring hollow too.  Joel Dahmen's point, while simple, is very well taken - go make money and play on LIV if you want, but don't act like the PGA Tour is making you do it, or act entitled to enjoy the benefits of both at the same time.

I'm in that place as well. Not sure about the monopoly accusation.  However, why not just let the players play where and when they want.  There is precedent set that some PGA Tour events just don't get the big names, as well as approving players can play elsewhere..  LIV is proving that both can coexist.

 

If the LIV invests for the next three to five years, which it seems they are ready to do, the PGA Tour will have no choice but to bring them into the OWGR (which it's quite obvious the PGA Tour has controlled up to this point), thereby making some sort of mutual agreement to further the growth and wealth of all Tours.  It really is all about the money.  Hopefully most of us can hang around long enough to watch it all play out.

[bekgolf]

20 minutes ago, cardia10 said:

You are not an employee of the tour but you agree to certain rules. Just like any other 1099 contractor in the job market. I think the tour has forgotten that it represents the players and is a partnership but historically, the players and caddies have been treated a little 2nd class by tour leadership. Basically they are performers and they shouldn't worry about how the tour makes financial decisions and trust of tour leadership has been lost. Now the LIV comes along, players trust former players and huge money always helps. 

So no contract when agreeing to be on the PGA tour?

 

You really didn't give an answer.

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

 

1 hour ago, cardia10 said:

You are not an employee of the tour but you agree to certain rules. Just like any other 1099 contractor in the job market. I think the tour has forgotten that it represents the players and is a partnership but historically, the players and caddies have been treated a little 2nd class by tour leadership. Basically they are performers and they shouldn't worry about how the tour makes financial decisions and trust of tour leadership has been lost. Now the LIV comes along, players trust former players and huge money always helps. 

 

The injunction to play in fedex is one thing.

 

But if this guy below is still the tours attorney, I’m thinking this full lawsuit will take years and the liv and players will get hauled in for some grilling themselves. 
 

For example, it seems these guys are playing this that they liv is staging some events. But I’d expect the tours lawyers to demand every piece of data from the liv, their management, the investors, Norman, Phil, etc. and look to show this was planned to be and is a fully competitive rival golf tour (14 events next year) that they have the right to ban players from regardless of how they made exceptions in the past.

 

This guy! 
 

https://www.skadden.com/professionals/m/mishkin-jeffrey-a

 

Edited August 4, 2022 by bscinstnct

[bekgolf]

Liv succeeds then PGA dies and I'm no longer a golf watcher.  Goodbye advertisers, sponsors, and great golfers who made it great.  I'll miss you.

[oikos1]

2 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

If LIV is able to grab a few top 15 current OWGR players, the issue is not coexisting, but dilution of fields. That alone to the PGA Tour will deter sponsors from re-upping their contracts knowing that more top names will not be available. With unlimited cash, LIV doesn't seem to have this issue - but their field is also diluted which could drive interest down. The novelty of their tournament structure will also wear off. And they need a TV contract or they're dead in the water.

 

Worldwide interest and perception of reputation improvement in S.A. is the main determinant as to whether LIV will continue to be funded. I have my doubts about both ...

But wait, some events have always had "weak" fields, and honestly that's a relative term, so why should sponsors not continue to support the good causes and large sums of money that support their communities and the mutual association with the PGA Tour?

 

This only brings the ugliness further under the microscope.  Big time sponsor says to the PGA Tour "You don't have the superstars anymore, guess what, we are no longer in the business of "giving".

 

Seriously, you are bringing the ugliest of looks to the PGA Tour, and it's sponsors, with that mentality.

 

[Ghost of Snead]

1 minute ago, oikos1 said:

But wait, some events have always had "weak" fields, and honestly that's a relative term, so why should sponsors not continue to support the good causes and large sums of money that support their communities and the mutual association with the PGA Tour?

 

This only brings the ugliness further under the microscope.  Big time sponsor says to the PGA Tour "You don't have the superstars anymore, guess what, we are no longer in the business of "giving".

 

Seriously, you are bringing the ugliest of looks to the PGA Tour, and it's sponsors, with that mentality.

 

 

Weak fields become weaker yet - the Rocket Mortgage becomes the Barbasol Detroit Open but the contribution to the community is diminished. Not sure what you mean by "that mentality" as there have always been lower tier events on the PGA Tour. Strength of field matters.

[oikos1]

Just now, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Weak fields become weaker yet - the Rocket Mortgage becomes the Barbasol Detroit Open but the contribution to the community is diminished. Not sure what you mean by "that mentality" as there have always been lower tier events on the PGA Tour. Strength of field matters.

Not sure what you mean by that either.  Which means we really should be enjoying after round cocktails together.  Got 27 in today and it was fantastic.  Honestly, I just love the ball and stick game of golf and come here for enjoyable banter.  Thank you for that and I would absolutely get the next round.

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, bladehunter said:

Lol shorts are just silly looking. I don’t truly care if someone wants to wear them. I own some too. But pro players shouldn’t need to wear them.  Baseball players don’t wear shorts, neither do football players. And they do far more strenuous activity in the 95 plus heat. 
 

I’m not a teetotaler - I just don’t see how you can drink in the aforementioned 95 degree heat and remain focused on the activity at hand.  I think too many go to the course to do other things.  I go to play for score.  Not for show ,  Not listen to music. Not drink and not really to socialize.  Although I will socialize  to be polite - if confronted with it.  😅.  
 

gambling is a pathway to get to paid. It goes directly with my purpose for being on the course .  Shoot a score. Get paid. That’s fun. All other stuff cost money.  Isn’t fun and doesn’t interest me. I just wish more wanted to actually play golf. And watch pro golf for that matter. Seems like everyone wants a party.  

Yep, since I was 10/11 I’ve gone to the golf course to ……… play golf. When I played basketball just about every day for recreation while collecting degrees back in the day, like the other guys who showed up for pickup games, we played basketball and played to win and because we loved playing and to keep the darn court, lol. 
 

Golf is still unique among the most popular sports with links to tradition and sportsmanship that are the bedrock of the game and playable and accessible for most people for most of their active lives. LIV couldn’t care less about that, and that isn’t really debatable. 

[lowndes]

Well I wasted my afternoon reading the complaint.  I found it interesting but was pretty surprised that there wasn’t more to it other than certain factual statements we had not seen before.  Like I said earlier the players have excellent counsel and who I believe is the lead attorney is exceptional.  I thought there would be more legal substance to it than there was.  I also found some of the cherry picking of facts and random dates a bit out of the ordinary.

 

Will be interested to follow along as this progresses.

[Hawkeye77]

4 hours ago, SheriffBooth said:

 

This is the intellectual leap that I'm having trouble with as well.  Plaintiffs are asserting that the PGA Tour's "monopoly" has destroyed competition, while at the same time Plaintiffs are indeed playing on a competitive tour and making lots of money while doing so.  For a very similar reason I think the monopsony arguments ring hollow too.  Joel Dahmen's point, while simple, is very well taken - go make money and play on LIV if you want, but don't act like the PGA Tour is making you do it, or act entitled to enjoy the benefits of both at the same time.

I’d be worried if it wasn’t causing you trouble! 
 

They can toss the term about and do so repeatedly but it’s being used as a buzzword more than having much to do with legitimate antitrust based claims.

Still a matter for a judge and likely the circuit court in the end and a long way to go, but agreements matter and will be key and the Tour and it’s player members have a solid organization. And LIV willingly pays all this money and the underlying motives are not irrelevant once it or those who willingly took the cash start trying to play the victims. 

 

[mokedaddy]

13 minutes ago, lowndes said:

Well I wasted my afternoon reading the complaint.  I found it interesting but was pretty surprised that there wasn’t more to it other than certain factual statements we had not seen before.  Like I said earlier the players have excellent counsel and who I believe is the lead attorney is exceptional.  I thought there would be more legal substance to it than there was.  I also found some of the cherry picking of facts and random dates a bit out of the ordinary.

 

Will be interested to follow along as this progresses.

Having been around the PGA tour my whole life I’m very much looking forward to discovery.  You hear a lot of rumors around so it will be interesting to see what is exposed.

Edited August 4, 2022 by mokedaddy

[bladehunter]

24 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Yep, since I was 10/11 I’ve gone to the golf course to ……… play golf. When I played basketball just about every day for recreation while collecting degrees back in the day, like the other guys who showed up for pickup games, we played basketball and played to win and because we loved playing and to keep the darn court, lol. 
 

Golf is still unique among the most popular sports with links to tradition and sportsmanship that are the bedrock of the game and playable and accessible for most people for most of their active lives. LIV couldn’t care less about that, and that isn’t really debatable. 

That’s my greater point.  
 

if they want to go have a wingding for millions.  Well. Bye. 
 

but to go then stand and throw rocks back this way ?  Nope. I see the whole group as ungrateful thieves. Like Freddie C. hinted at. Phil is pretty much dead to the golf world at this point.  They’ll all go down in history as the group who sold the game. 

[Dutch1008]

5 minutes ago, oikos1 said:

Not sure what you mean by that either.  Which means we really should be enjoying after round cocktails together.  Got 27 in today and it was fantastic.  Honestly, I just love the ball and stick game of golf and come here for enjoyable banter.  Thank you for that and I would absolutely get the next round.

He means its a death spiral. The more players that defect to LIV, the weaker these events get. Eventually, the Rocket Mtg event is indistinguishable from a Korn Ferry event. Corporations don't sponsor these things out of the kindness of their hearts. They want their logos plastered all over CBS/NBC on Sat/Sun morning, mentioned on ESPN/Golf Channel Thu - Sun night. They want to get their brands in front of high net worth eyeballs and the PGA tour audience has proven to be a lucrative one. 

 

Sports live and die on broadcast rights. It's why college FB is going through so much turmoil. Every school trying to optimize their TV deal. The growth and expansion of the SEC and Big 10 is coming directly out of the pockets of the Pac 12 and Big 12. The same will be true of LIV and the PGA. If/When LIV grows, it will come at the expense of the PGA. As the PGA tour dwindles, so does the infrastructure is supports. The senior tour, LPGA, Korn Ferry, all of those things are somewhat subsidized by the PGA tour. 

 

If LIV ultimately grabs the top 48 players in the world, it's game over. In reality its check mate way before that. Broadcast companies and advertisers don't pay top dollar to broadcast the minor leagues. And the ironic thing about this, if it does truly play out, those guys like James Hahn or any 50+ ranked player are the ones who will be screwed the most. The top 50 will make NBA money, everybody else will be lucky to make practice squad / G-League / minor league money.  

[oikos1]

36 minutes ago, Ghost of Snead said:

 

Weak fields become weaker yet - the Rocket Mortgage becomes the Barbasol Detroit Open but the contribution to the community is diminished. Not sure what you mean by "that mentality" as there have always been lower tier events on the PGA Tour. Strength of field matters.

Fair enough.  I just don't think you and other's realize what is happening.  Someone is wiling to pay PGA Tour golfer's ridiculous amounts of money.

 

Here's the real question:  "Why and how should this impact the PGA Tour?"

 

I don't think you, the PGA Tour or anyone else has that answer.

[oikos1]

9 minutes ago, Dutch1008 said:

He means its a death spiral. The more players that defect to LIV, the weaker these events get. Eventually, the Rocket Mtg event is indistinguishable from a Korn Ferry event. Corporations don't sponsor these things out of the kindness of their hearts. They want their logos plastered all over CBS/NBC on Sat/Sun morning, mentioned on ESPN/Golf Channel Thu - Sun night. They want to get their brands in front of high net worth eyeballs and the PGA tour audience has proven to be a lucrative one. 

 

Sports live and die on broadcast rights. It's why college FB is going through so much turmoil. Every school trying to optimize their TV deal. The growth and expansion of the SEC and Big 10 is coming directly out of the pockets of the Pac 12 and Big 12. The same will be true of LIV and the PGA. If/When LIV grows, it will come at the expense of the PGA. As the PGA tour dwindles, so does the infrastructure is supports. The senior tour, LPGA, Korn Ferry, all of those things are somewhat subsidized by the PGA tour. 

 

If LIV ultimately grabs the top 48 players in the world, it's game over. In reality its check mate way before that. Broadcast companies and advertisers don't pay top dollar to broadcast the minor leagues. And the ironic thing about this, if it does truly play out, those guys like James Hahn or any 50+ ranked player are the ones who will be screwed the most. The top 50 will make NBA money, everybody else will be lucky to make practice squad / G-League / minor league money.  

So if your synopsis is true, the PGA Tour never really built or had any meaningful relationships with their sponsors; it was all about money.

 

These are such sad analysis's of the situation at hand.