LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[wedgegame]

59 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

@jplroper not targeting you.   

 

Wondering what is up with all the post like this now? Is it just that time of the season..?

 

Major's have nothing to do with any tour, zero.  That is what makes them so great.  Getting the best from all over th world and letting them go at it. 

 

I'm just going out on a limb here, but I think the reason people target LIV specifically in statements like these is because LIV players just can't stop whining about the major's eligibility criteria despite knowing that by joining the league they would have challenges qualifying for majors. Just a guess on my part, but I rarely hear anyone other than LIV leadership/players complain about the majors.

[CDM]

14 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

Someone hasn't been to the following:

 

https://golf.com/travel/courses/top-100-golf-courses-world-2023-24/

 

99.99999% you're not serious but just in case lol.

 

 

 

Tough discussion when using the TOP 100 in the world list vs a top public course in a state  If you want to know if courses are worht the money as @fowlerscousin pointed out try and find ways to access top courses. Takes time but can be done.

 

In the US public courses even at the local level courses gouge.  

 

Top public courses on  that list gouge 2x/3x or ven more the rate to play top private courses on that list.  Its the US model....!

 

Top public courses 100% target the public because there is some "allure" that since it made the "list" it has to be amazing...!   I am sure many on this thread will agree that is not 100% true...!  

 

Played a handful from that list. Quick examples of comparisons:  (Numbers noted are from the list / prices are USD)

 

No.21 vs No.22.  One cost $600 the other $98. Each are fantastic courses why so close on ratings.  No.22 IMHO is a better design.  Way more fun to play hands down also.

 

No.6:  Amazing course. $531 for one round right now.....with a member $38.....YES that is correct.  $30 pounds to play with a member.

 

No.7:  100% worth the rate for public access.  The rate with a member is 4x less.  Regardless it is worth it IMHO. 

[CDM]

15 minutes ago, wedgegame said:

 

I'm just going out on a limb here, but I think the reason people target LIV specifically in statements like these is because LIV players just can't stop whining about the major's eligibility criteria despite knowing that by joining the league they would have challenges qualifying for majors. Just a guess on my part, but I rarely hear anyone other than LIV leadership/players complain about the majors.

 

Fully agree.  Just seems to be beating the same dead horse talk.

 

Personally the governing bodies and Masters should be the only ones on the OWGR board, set the criteria. 

 

PGAT, DP Tour, etc.... no tour should have a seat on criteria for Majors.  As noted the tours have nothing to do with the Majors, zero. 

 

Fully agree that the players at LIV knew going in the issues.  Does it mean we as fans will have the best of best, maybe not.  The majors have always said they want the best of the best and hopefully they keep doing that with ZERO input from any tour group.

[mosesgolf]

53 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

Tough discussion when using the TOP 100 in the world list vs a top public course in a state  If you want to know if courses are worht the money as @fowlerscousin pointed out try and find ways to access top courses. Takes time but can be done.

 

In the US public courses even at the local level courses gouge.  

 

Top public courses on  that list gouge 2x/3x or ven more the rate to play top private courses on that list.  Its the US model....!

 

Top public courses 100% target the public because there is some "allure" that since it made the "list" it has to be amazing...!   I am sure many on this thread will agree that is not 100% true...!  

 

Played a handful from that list. Quick examples of comparisons:  (Numbers noted are from the list / prices are USD)

 

No.21 vs No.22.  One cost $600 the other $98. Each are fantastic courses why so close on ratings.  No.22 IMHO is a better design.  Way more fun to play hands down also.

 

No.6:  Amazing course. $531 for one round right now.....with a member $38.....YES that is correct.  $30 pounds to play with a member.

 

No.7:  100% worth the rate for public access.  The rate with a member is 4x less.  Regardless it is worth it IMHO. 

I get you.  Mr Fowler said no course was worth $75.  Heck $75-$105 is the going rate in my neck of the woods and I'd rate most of those courses top 1000 lol.

[stinger_gc]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Maybe you’re right!

 

“ Cantlay is blocking any type of deal they try to put together. Rory wants (independent director) Jimmy Dunne to be the negotiator, not the players.”

 

 

Cantlay is 100% the reason this deal is being held up. LIV didn’t meet his number and he’s holding the entire tour hostage. 

[bcjim]

1 hour ago, bscinstnct said:

 

Maybe you’re right!

 

“ Cantlay is blocking any type of deal they try to put together. Rory wants (independent director) Jimmy Dunne to be the negotiator, not the players.”

 

 

They need to keep a lid on this kind of stuff. 

[CaseyC]

Does Cantlay have more sway and power than Tiger?  

[stinger_gc]

https://twitter.com/RoryTrackr/status/1788220140816924853/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1788220140816924853&currentTweetUser=RoryTrackr

Heard a rumor that a sponsor of multiple events is threatening to pull out unless Rory’s back on the board (probably At&T or RBC). The tour’s also losing Wells Fargo this year and Farmers next year. Whoever is running the show rn is doing an awful job 

[Togatown22]

48 minutes ago, stinger_gc said:

Cantlay is 100% the reason this deal is being held up. LIV didn’t meet his number and he’s holding the entire tour hostage. 

How can one guy hold the whole thing up?  That's ridiculous if really what is happening.  Looking to educate myself here, not understanding how that Board works.

[CDM]

2 hours ago, mosesgolf said:

I get you.  Mr Fowler said no course was worth $75.  Heck $75-$105 is the going rate in my neck of the woods and I'd rate most of those courses top 1000 lol.

 

Same here and higher no a number of them ($150 to $200 plus)  We are lucky and have some good courses in the area that are not crazy expensive but the "demand" is still high so the rates match supply.  

[CDM]

8 hours ago, bcjim said:

They need to keep a lid on this kind of stuff. 

 

Why?  It shows the disconnect that has always been there.    Or is it the fact that many felt the PGAT is "prefect" and it is not as all seems? Its just business and this is what happens when it is by committee.   I have to assume that they need the vote of ALL players (like a jury trial LOL) for the deal to be past?   Not just a majority vote? 

 

I mean come on is anyone really surprised its Cantlay?  He holds up everyone on the course so why would he not hold this up  🤣

Edited May 9 by CDM

[CaseyC]

1 hour ago, stinger_gc said:

https://twitter.com/RoryTrackr/status/1788220140816924853/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1788220140816924853&currentTweetUser=RoryTrackr

Heard a rumor that a sponsor of multiple events is threatening to pull out unless Rory’s back on the board (probably At&T or RBC). The tour’s also losing Wells Fargo this year and Farmers next year. Whoever is running the show rn is doing an awful job 

 

Your link doesn't work...

[Golferpaul]

4 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Personally the governing bodies and Masters should be the only ones on the OWGR board, set the criteria. 

 

Or maybe just the opposite.  Maybe world rankings should be determined by people NOT associated with any tour so they can be unbiased.

[Golferpaul]

4 hours ago, CDM said:

 

In the US public courses even at the local level courses gouge.  

 

Please explain what you mean by gouge. 

 

We have so many courses to choose from that I think the market has set most of the green fees appropriately.

[Archimedes65]

9 hours ago, fowlerscousin said:

If you want to play a great private place get a friend to let u in

 

Private?  Last I checked the following fantastic golf courses were open to the public:

 

Pebble Beach

Spyglass

Pasatiempo

Erin Hills

Whistling Straights

Bethpage

Pinehurst

TPC Sawgrass

…

oh and an old course I believe they call St. Andrews...

 

Seriously, there are a lot of high dollar courses that are worth the fee.  Try some of them, you might like em.

[Archimedes65]

4 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://twitter.com/RoryTrackr/status/1788220140816924853/mediaViewer?currentTweet=1788220140816924853&currentTweetUser=RoryTrackr

Heard a rumor that a sponsor of multiple events is threatening to pull out unless Rory’s back on the board (probably At&T or RBC). The tour’s also losing Wells Fargo this year and Farmers next year. Whoever is running the show rn is doing an awful job 

 

I find it funny that the one guy who swears he just wants the drama over has been the biggest drama queen over the past few months, always willing to expound at length during his pressers.  I’m a bigger fan of Rory that I am of Cantlay, but I do wish he’d take a page from Cantlay’s book and just shut up for a while.

 

Until Rory swore his allegiance to the PGA Tour a few weeks back, I was convinced that his recent warming on LIV and the guys that left was simply him starting the process of going to LIV during the offseason.  Then I wasn’t convinced.  But lately I’m not so sure that he’s not gonna pull a Rahm and be saying he’s never, ever, ever going until right before he does.

 

Honestly, I’d just wish all of them would just shut up.  No golfer or small group of them is bigger than the game.  The only reason any of them are the wealthy spoiled brats that they are is due to the PGA Tour.  They should all remember the adage about ‘if you don’t have something nice to say…’

[Archimedes65]

9 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

I don't agree.  Viewers were down 24% from last year when we played on the same "awful dog track of a venue".  And down even more from 2022 at the same venue.

 

There is nothing wrong with the venue.  The problem is it's a designated minor league event.

 

It’s always been a dog track of a venue, even when they had a better field.  The new elevated vs. non elevated stuff just lead to a weaker field and even worse ratings.  TPC Craig Ranch should not be hosting a PGA Tour event.  Aside from the fact that the Pro’s just tear it up, it offers no beauty to the viewer watching at home on TV.  It’s just a non descript piece of North Texas prairie land with a brown water drainage ditch of a creek running through it.  It boggles my mind that they can’t find a better venue for this tournament in the Metroplex.

[stinger_gc]

4 hours ago, Togatown22 said:

How can one guy hold the whole thing up?  That's ridiculous if really what is happening.  Looking to educate myself here, not understanding how that Board works.

I’m pretty sure it needs to be a unanimous decision. Yasir’s definitely running short on patience, we’re coming up on a year and still no progress. Part of me just want the tour to just blow it all up and start from scratch. Get the deal done with PIF and then merge the 2 entities into one operation (have 5 signature events 5 team events, the players, the majors, and the playoffs.)

[billyspan]

6 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Fully agree.  Just seems to be beating the same dead horse talk.

 

Personally the governing bodies and Masters should be the only ones on the OWGR board, set the criteria. 

 

PGAT, DP Tour, etc.... no tour should have a seat on criteria for Majors.  As noted the tours have nothing to do with the Majors, zero. 

 

Fully agree that the players at LIV knew going in the issues.  Does it mean we as fans will have the best of best, maybe not.  The majors have always said they want the best of the best and hopefully they keep doing that with ZERO input from any tour group.

I'm definitely leaning your way.  However, it is important to note that the 3 representatives associated with the PGA & European Tours recused themselves from the initial LIV OWGR vote. 

[leezer99]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

The tour is an absolute mess right now. I thought Rory could help get this PIF deal to the finish line. I doubt this deal even happens now

The tour is not a mess. Board policy states he can’t come back until next election period. Big nothing burger. 

[bscinstnct]

1 hour ago, stinger_gc said:

I’m pretty sure it needs to be a unanimous decision. Yasir’s definitely running short on patience, we’re coming up on a year and still no progress. Part of me just want the tour to just blow it all up and start from scratch. Get the deal done with PIF and then merge the 2 entities into one operation (have 5 signature events 5 team events, the players, the majors, and the playoffs.)

 

 

 

[fowlerscousin]

TW only tour player in direct negotiations with SA? The tours bench can't be that shallow

[Archimedes65]

1 hour ago, stinger_gc said:

I’m pretty sure it needs to be a unanimous decision. Yasir’s definitely running short on patience, we’re coming up on a year and still no progress. Part of me just want the tour to just blow it all up and start from scratch. Get the deal done with PIF and then merge the 2 entities into one operation (have 5 signature events 5 team events, the players, the majors, and the playoffs.)

 

The stupidity in that tournament director’s comment, is the assumption that a deal with PIF means LIV is going away.  It’s not, and that’s obviously the big sticking point, or there would already be a deal in place.  All the other issues, particularly payouts to the PGA Tour players who stayed, are easy.  The hard one is the future of LIV, and it’s not going anywhere.  It’s going to continue to light money on fire for years to come.  Anyone at the top of the golf world who doesn’t understand that is just being delusional.

[TheMoneyShot]

21 minutes ago, bscinstnct said:

 

 

 

TW is going to tell them how it’s going to work or pound sand😂😂😂

[Archimedes65]

I really like Jimmy Dunne and the way he handled the press tour when the framework agreement was announced, but I was dismayed when during his Congressional testimony he said the Tour had no choice but to do a deal with the PIF due to their deep pockets and role as a non-economic actor in the industry.  You have ‘no choice’?!  A) You always have a choice, and B) if you really believe that you have no choice but to do a deal, you’ve already lost the negotiation.  That was the PGA Tour saying, we’re screwed and we have no leverage, which is nuts given all the assets and positives the Tour had/has.  Luckily, other investors realized this and jumped in.

 

On top of that, when Monahan was asked why they did the deal, he said the primary reason was that the Tour could not continue to fund the litigation, which he estimated at $100 million.  Well, the framework agreement dismissed all litigation with prejudice.  The minute that was signed, why didn’t you just walk away right then?

[bekgolf]

8 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

I really like Jimmy Dunne and the way he handled the press tour when the framework agreement was announced, but I was dismayed when during his Congressional testimony he said the Tour had no choice but to do a deal with the PIF due to their deep pockets and role as a non-economic actor in the industry.  You have ‘no choice’?!  A) You always have a choice, and B) if you really believe that you have no choice but to do a deal, you’ve already lost the negotiation.  That was the PGA Tour saying, we’re screwed and we have no leverage, which is nuts given all the assets and positives the Tour had/has.  Luckily, other investors realized this and jumped in.

 

On top of that, when Monahan was asked why they did the deal, he said the primary reason was that the Tour could not continue to fund the litigation, which he estimated at $100 million.  Well, the framework agreement dismissed all litigation with prejudice.  The minute that was signed, why didn’t you just walk away right then?

 

I watched Jimmy do an interview on TGC when this all came out.  I wouldn't buy a used car from him.

[bscinstnct]

18 minutes ago, TheMoneyShot said:

TW is going to tell them how it’s going to work or pound sand😂😂😂

 

I didn’t even know Joe Gorder was involved. 

 

Chairman of Valero Energy. I’m sure he and SA can talk some business on multiple levels lol

 

Ahhh and now I see,

 

“Gorder is the chairman and CEO of Valero, the title sponsor of the Texas Open. He has been appointed the inaugural chairman of the PGA Tour Enterprises board.”

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/golf/2024/05/08/tiger-woods-pga-tour-tour-negotiating-saudis/c7da9e84-0d9b-11ef-ae0a-a6870885518d_story.html#

 

 

 

Ok now this deal can done already. 

Edited May 9 by bscinstnct

[notsohard]

Everyone knows that Rory and Yasir are friends. Rory, according to some, did the right thing by sticking it out with the PGAT and tried to get both sides working to an amicable deal. Well that hasn't happened because certain players are involved and have no idea. As for this "deal", it's not about merging LIV with the PGAT. In the end, LIV will have a cut off on their tournaments for points and start recruiting younger golfers. eg: I would throw $20mill at Miles and Kim. The SSG with the PGAT cannot compete. 

[CDM]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Please explain what you mean by gouge. 

 

We have so many courses to choose from that I think the market has set most of the green fees appropriately.

 

Your cooment answers the point,  yes there are many courses but demand sets course prices.  We all saw that during covid boom.  There are certain aspects that just flat add to overheard,  things like fertilizer which when crazy on prices which forced prices up also.

 

We have a number or courses in the area at the noted prices I stated and we have some that are 50% less or more and are better courses.   People keep playing the others since they assume it has to be better given the price....and they never play them again after the first time

 

Ie: Demand pricing that some courses started to do.

[stinger_gc]

13 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

The stupidity in that tournament director’s comment, is the assumption that a deal with PIF means LIV is going away.  It’s not, and that’s obviously the big sticking point, or there would already be a deal in place.  All the other issues, particularly payouts to the PGA Tour players who stayed, are easy.  The hard one is the future of LIV, and it’s not going anywhere.  It’s going to continue to light money on fire for years to come.  Anyone at the top of the golf world who doesn’t understand that is just being delusional.

It’s obvious LIV isn’t going anywhere. The tour’s negotiating with PIF not LIV.