LIV Tour Discussion Thread (*** NO POLITICS ***)

[CDM]

4 hours ago, Golferpaul said:

Or maybe just the opposite.  Maybe world rankings should be determined by people NOT associated with any tour so they can be unbiased.

 

If your saying fans. etc.  Maybe that works but then some player, lets say Gooch would start dating someone......... Lets say  Taylor Swift and the "swifties" would come out in force and as long they were dating Gooch would be the #1 player in the world the whole time...!   😁 

 

............Then we would have to listen to Greg say  " I knew he was the best player in the world"    🤣

[CDM]

3 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Private?  Last I checked the following fantastic golf courses were open to the public:

 

Pebble Beach

Spyglass

Pasatiempo

Erin Hills

Whistling Straights

Bethpage

Pinehurst

TPC Sawgrass

…

oh and an old course I believe they call St. Andrews...

 

Seriously, there are a lot of high dollar courses that are worth the fee.  Try some of them, you might like em.

 

Dont think anyone is saying they are not open for play.   I point I think is the price given it was note that no course is worth more than $75.   

 

Everyone of those courses you listed are 2x min and most are 3x the rate of a playing the private top course on the same list.  Sure good courses but since they are public access and made the "list" they can triple the price of courses that are higher rated because ......demand.  People will pay it so they keep raising the prices until they hit that threshold that people start backing down.

 

TPC Sawgrass is the one that makes no sense to me.........$700 base........ its a "decent" course but it is not worth that.  Believe it or not but that is actually 2.6x -  3.5x the rate of the top 2O courses in the US  on golf digest list of greatest courses.

[bcjim]

7 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Why?  It shows the disconnect that has always been there.    Or is it the fact that many felt the PGAT is "prefect" and it is not as all seems? Its just business and this is what happens when it is by committee.   I have to assume that they need the vote of ALL players (like a jury trial LOL) for the deal to be past?   Not just a majority vote? 

 

I mean come on is anyone really surprised its Cantlay?  He holds up everyone on the course so why would he not hold this up  🤣

It was just a bad Cantlay hat joke..

 

Rory is right. Players have no business doing the business part of this. 

However,  I do agree with the faction that is apparently telling pif to pound sand.

[stinger_gc]

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

[dcmidnight]

8 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

 

As a Red Sox fan, as much as I loathe John Heny - what can it hurt?

 

Golf's future right now is a giant crater in the desert. The whole game. No one wants to watch LIV, people are getting sick of the PGAT - the whole game is coming off as two groups of entitled children fighting it out. If someone doesnt step up and do something - who knows what this looks like five years from now. Again - its not a LIV thing.

 

So to me - at this point and with the trajectories LIV/PGAT are both going - to me some deal is better than no deal and them letting each other drive their cars off a cliff.

[Titleist99]

8 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

No, we should leave that to our WRXers and their crack staff of CEOs to prognosticate the future of the $5B PGAT.😂

 

WRXers  seem to know better than JM who has negotiated many of these deals.🙂

[stinger_gc]

1 hour ago, dcmidnight said:

 

As a Red Sox fan, as much as I loathe John Heny - what can it hurt?

 

Golf's future right now is a giant crater in the desert. The whole game. No one wants to watch LIV, people are getting sick of the PGAT - the whole game is coming off as two groups of entitled children fighting it out. If someone doesnt step up and do something - who knows what this looks like five years from now. Again - its not a LIV thing.

 

So to me - at this point and with the trajectories LIV/PGAT are both going - to me some deal is better than no deal and them letting each other drive their cars off a cliff.

I agree with that. Just make a deal 

[pingbling23]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

At least all of the anti liv/tiger super fans on here will accept the deal that is made since their idol is a part of it.

[CDM]

10 hours ago, bcjim said:

It was just a bad Cantlay hat joke..

 

Rory is right. Players have no business doing the business part of this. 

However,  I do agree with the faction that is apparently telling pif to pound sand.

 

100% agree the players should leave it to the business experts. 

 

I think the players should have input but not final say.  At this ponit many players are jaded and more about money (personally) vs the big / long term picture.  Cantlay is an idiot and after money comments at the Ryder Cup we know his stance.

 

Telling the PIF to pound would be extremely determential.  The PGAT has pushed the envelope to far, plain and simple.

 

Someone noted it a few posts back.  The PGAT showed its hand to early with the comments made public. They had to end the legal side for cost. We can not keep going at the pace we are financially on events, etc.    

 

SSG coming in helps by time (?) but all the SSG members are smart business men.  All them are smart enough to know the numbers and the PGAT this year on average is down near 25% in ratings per event. 

 

Adding in the rumor of another top sponsor upset after already loosing 3 tops sponsors. 

 

I am not the smartest business person by far, have a small business but all we do is math and numbers dont lie.  I never once understood, even with SSG coming in how the PGAT thought they could leverage all this vs PIF ?  PIF can continue this irrational process as long as they like.  Irrational as it is, the monies spent todate is pocket change to them. 

 

The comments of about LIV - "putting lipstick on a pig".  I read the deal that SSG has and it seemed to be the same thing to me from a pure business aspect at this stage.  IMHO. 

 

Hindsight is always 20/20 but "IF" the PGAT sat down and just talked. Never had to do a deal, even tell them anything, just listen to what PIF offering.   See the "intent" of what PIF was offereing.   Then let Jimmy D getting his friends at SSG together and vet it if made sense.  If not we would still be in the same spot so why would it matter. PLUS you would know what your new competition is up too..........

 

Look at how many billions of dollars that would have been towards the PGAT, bolstered them even more and not created the divide. 

[freeze16172002]

10 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

You're right golfs future should be left to Mickelson, Norman and bunch of Saudi execs. They done such a great job with LIV, no ratings, no interest and billions lost yearly. How could it hurt

[bscinstnct]

11 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

https://www.scmp.com/sport/golf/article/3261949/tiger-woods-be-part-pif-pga-negotiations-mcilroy-return-blocked-sides-eye-end-golf-civil-war
 

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

 

Those “execs” all have decades of experience investing, owning, and growing sports franchises and leagues including 

 

International soccer, NFL, MLB, NBA, F1, and

 

Cricket ; )

 

https://golfweek.usatoday.com/lists/pga-tour-strategic-sports-group-saudi-pif-investors/

Edited May 9 by bscinstnct

[Danielson]

40 minutes ago, CDM said:

 

100% agree the players should leave it to the business experts. 

 

I think the players should have input but not final say.  At this ponit many players are jaded and more about money (personally) vs the big / long term picture.  Cantlay is an idiot and after money comments at the Ryder Cup we know his stance.

 

Telling the PIF to pound would be extremely determential.  The PGAT has pushed the envelope to far, plain and simple.

 

Someone noted it a few posts back.  The PGAT showed its hand to early with the comments made public. They had to end the legal side for cost. We can not keep going at the pace we are financially on events, etc.    

 

SSG coming in helps by time (?) but all the SSG members are smart business men.  All them are smart enough to know the numbers and the PGAT this year on average is down near 25% in ratings per event. 

 

Adding in the rumor of another top sponsor upset after already loosing 3 tops sponsors. 

 

I am not the smartest business person by far, have a small business but all we do is math and numbers dont lie.  I never once understood, even with SSG coming in how the PGAT thought they could leverage all this vs PIF ?  PIF can continue this irrational process as long as they like.  Irrational as it is, the monies spent todate is pocket change to them. 

 

The comments of about LIV - "putting lipstick on a pig".  I read the deal that SSG has and it seemed to be the same thing to me from a pure business aspect at this stage.  IMHO. 

 

Hindsight is always 20/20 but "IF" the PGAT sat down and just talked. Never had to do a deal, even tell them anything, just listen to what PIF offering.   See the "intent" of what PIF was offereing.   Then let Jimmy D getting his friends at SSG together and vet it if made sense.  If not we would still be in the same spot so why would it matter. PLUS you would know what your new competition is up too..........

 

Look at how many billions of dollars that would have been towards the PGAT, bolstered them even more and not created the divide. 

 

 

I agree. From what I remember part of the prompt for the "merger" was that the PIF did not want to go through discovery and questioning in a US court, right? Feels like LIV/PIF got what they wanted already, so I don't see why they'd be in a hurry to get a deal done. They're likely content to let the PGA Tour flounder while they poach players and let the sportswashing and normalization continue. They're in a pretty strong position where they can do nothing and their bargaining position will only continue to strengthen. The Tour ran out a bunch of money it didn't have to try to convince players to stay... but now what? Putting all merit/format/golf related concerns aside, you have one entity willing to spend an effectively unlimited amount to get a seat at the table and another entity that can't afford the fight.

[lopey986]

I truly don't understand the push for a deal on either side, but especially from the LIV side. If there is a true LIV fan here maybe they can explain why, if LIV is so great, all these guys seem so desperate to be allowed back into PGA Tour tourneys?

[stinger_gc]

1 hour ago, freeze16172002 said:

You're right golfs future should be left to Mickelson, Norman and bunch of Saudi execs. They done such a great job with LIV, no ratings, no interest and billions lost yearly. How could it hurt

No I’d rather Tiger negotiate. I want Greg and Phil gone lol

[CDM]

1 hour ago, lopey986 said:

I truly don't understand the push for a deal on either side, but especially from the LIV side. If there is a true LIV fan here maybe they can explain why, if LIV is so great, all these guys seem so desperate to be allowed back into PGA Tour tourneys?

 

I like golf, not a fan of either at this point but there is a disconnect and media is partially to blame. 

 

Many players on LIV dont want back on the PGAT and many have stated that openly.   

Serigo's lack of tack while playing on the PGAT shows that sadly.  Clown for doing that IMHO.

A number of players on the PGAT dont want them back for alot of reasons.   Flip the coin and some LIV players feel as independent contractors they should be able to play when and where they want.  

 

Players like DJ, Rahm, Bryson have stated there are 2-3 events they do miss playing in / on the PGAT. The course, location, sponsor, etc.  They have also said they do not want to be back fully on the PGAT.   

 

Beside "burn bridge" feelings, Its the contract (media aspects) the PGAT requires that does not allow that.  To do so would be a contract change (fully) and all PGAT players would have to get the same contract.  Ie: they could play whereever they want, whenever and that would not ensure to sponsors of the PGAT they would have players show up.  

 

IMHO Majors is what really creates the "view" that LIV players want back on the PGAT.  

 

First LIV players complain about not being in Majors, bottom line they knew it could be an issue so deal with it.   

 

The issue gets blurred as the PGAT list Majors as PGAT events.  THEY HAVE ZERO do with Majors.  *it's a marketing aspect just like LIV to say "now on the tee XXX major champion".

 

An outsider looking in, and the PGAT list Majors as PGAT events, the media is not going to correct that so people who are not aware assume they are PGAT events and LIV players are trying to get back FULLY on the PGAT.  Not true.

 

Its a tough line and see contract wise why the PGAT is holding on it.  You have a ton of players who stayed and having players leave has moved them up so helped them, so why would they want them back personally. PGAT business side loosing top is a hard marketing / business aspect. 

 

If there is a way I think allowing "limited' play by Rahm, Cam, DJ, Brooks, Bryson in a couple of events would draw fans and only help the PGAT given the numbers are down this year.  It just not that easy from a legal/contract side (business) and the PGAT has to stick to what is agreed too. 

 

They just need to find resolution. 

 

Edit: Sorry your main point... "so desperate" to be back on the PGAT.... find one comment of any LIV player saying they want back fully on the tour.  Ie: Media, and PGAT players are the only ones saying it.  Ooooo yea Steve Stricker who says he talked to a "number" of LIV players who want back on the PGAT, but never said "who"  ???  .... "okay"    Sure maybe for 2 -3 events as they openly stated. 

Edited May 9 by CDM

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, Danielson said:

 

 

I agree. From what I remember part of the prompt for the "merger" was that the PIF did not want to go through discovery and questioning in a US court, right? Feels like LIV/PIF got what they wanted already, so I don't see why they'd be in a hurry to get a deal done. They're likely content to let the PGA Tour flounder while they poach players and let the sportswashing and normalization continue. They're in a pretty strong position where they can do nothing and their bargaining position will only continue to strengthen. The Tour ran out a bunch of money it didn't have to try to convince players to stay... but now what? Putting all merit/format/golf related concerns aside, you have one entity willing to spend an effectively unlimited amount to get a seat at the table and another entity that can't afford the fight.

 

Is the goal of Liv to destroy the PGA Tour?  It always comes back to that and they can't do it unless this ill advised "merger" takes place. 

 

All that Liv is doing right now is paying crazy sums of monies for players who don't want to compete in order to make money.  IMO they are unknowingly doing the PGA Tour a favor by getting the dead weight out and letting true competitors have a chance at the tour.

[CT007]

Appears as if Tiger, Cantly, et all want to stand alone , apart from PIF. Or at least keep PIF at arms length.  Rory expressed his idea that the PGA Tour should get deal done, get this unified and over.

 

To me seems like, Tiger has same plan as Jay M that got them in this place    This has not worked well to date, and no reason to think it will in future based on Mgmt in place.

 

The SSG investment, and equity of new PGA Tour Ent. To date has made no progress other than some restricted stock /options / equity.  No idea if this is worth anything, and no reason today to believe anything has got done

 

The messaging of this continues to look like Jay M is running the show.  He just now has Tiger carrying water, rather than Rory.

 

We will see,  I originally was optimistic that the SSG investment was progress, but no substance to this to date. No owner / PE would let Mgmt drag this along and no plan, results.  Players still seem to be getting short end, while Mgmt does .. i dont know what.  Trying to hide the pension fund?  Its hard to see much progress , and leaves one to wonder why.

[MrDC]

All the Saudis ever wanted was a seat at the table for the big leagues of pro golf, which is the PGAT or whatever it becomes, and LIV has possibly provided them with that, if they get a seat LIV may be cooked because they won't need that tour anymore.

What becomes of the LIV players? probably a short term ban for bad behavior, like one year, something to make the fans that don't like LIV feel good about a punishment and then welcome them back in some way without boos and drama.

But I think most golf fans hope this scenario doesn't happen, even if LIV is disbanded, they just don't like the way this went down and I can see a real boycott if they take the Saudi money.

 

Edited May 9 by MrDC

[doc52]

2 hours ago, lopey986 said:

I truly don't understand the push for a deal on either side, but especially from the LIV side. If there is a true LIV fan here maybe they can explain why, if LIV is so great, all these guys seem so desperate to be allowed back into PGA Tour tourneys?

They want OWGR points for majors, not to play the John Deere.

[bekgolf]

1 hour ago, MrDC said:

All the Saudis ever wanted was a seat at the table for the big leagues of pro golf

 

They don't seem to care one iota about professional golf as it is now, they want the seat at the table in order to dismantle the PGA Tour and install their SA version of team golf to mimic other popular things in the ME that have teams.

 

They don't care about the golfers, they don't care about the fans, imo they think that if Liv is the only game in town it will automatically get the viewership that the tour gets.  It won't, all it would do is make professional golf something like watching the Harlem Globetrotters vs the Generals.

Edited May 9 by bekgolf

[Danielson]

1 hour ago, bekgolf said:

 

Is the goal of Liv to destroy the PGA Tour?  It always comes back to that and they can't do it unless this ill advised "merger" takes place. 

 

All that Liv is doing right now is paying crazy sums of monies for players who don't want to compete in order to make money.  IMO they are unknowingly doing the PGA Tour a favor by getting the dead weight out and letting true competitors have a chance at the tour.

 

I don't think they want to destroy it, I think they want to effectively own it and LIV is their way to force a hostile takeover or at least a pretty strong say in what the Tour does. But I am merely a small brained civilian so there's a decent shot I'm wrong about what a sovereign wealth fund is trying to do.

 

I would have agreed at first that they were taking dead weight, but a roster with Rahm, Cam Smith, Brooks, Bryson, DJ is pretty good. They have some other guys who are not necessarily likeable but are still pretty good tour pros. I think they've dealt a pretty big blow to the standard PGA Tour event. Luckily the Tour has Scottie doing generational things or I think this would all look a lot more tilted in LIVs favor.

[Archimedes65]

23 hours ago, CDM said:

 

Dont think anyone is saying they are not open for play.   I point I think is the price given it was note that no course is worth more than $75.   

 

Everyone of those courses you listed are 2x min and most are 3x the rate of a playing the private top course on the same list.  Sure good courses but since they are public access and made the "list" they can triple the price of courses that are higher rated because ......demand.  People will pay it so they keep raising the prices until they hit that threshold that people start backing down.

 

TPC Sawgrass is the one that makes no sense to me.........$700 base........ its a "decent" course but it is not worth that.  Believe it or not but that is actually 2.6x -  3.5x the rate of the top 2O courses in the US  on golf digest list of greatest courses.

 

I’m sorry, what are do mean the ‘rate’ of playing a private course?  Are you talking about the ‘reciprocal fee’? That’s not a comparable number to a public course rate, as the economics are entirely different.  Private course ‘rates’ are non-economic.

 

I’ve played many of the courses on the list I made and they are all worth every freaking penny they charge.  The difference between them and any $75 course out there is night and day.  If one cannot tell the difference between a course like say Spyglass and their local $75 muni, that’s a ‘them’ problem.  And the fact that the tee sheets are full at pretty much every single one of them tells me that plenty of people agree with me.

Edited May 10 by Archimedes65

[Archimedes65]

20 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

It’s obvious LIV isn’t going anywhere. The tour’s negotiating with PIF not LIV.

 

Agreed, but that TD comment that I was quoting referred specifically to the future of LIV.  And if you don’t think LIV has been a key discussion point in the negotiations with the PIF, you haven’t been paying attention.  It is THE #1 issue in negotiations.  If not for LIV, the PGA Tour wouldn’t even be entertaining discussions with the PIF.

[Archimedes65]

21 hours ago, notsohard said:

Everyone knows that Rory and Yasir are friends. Rory, according to some, did the right thing by sticking it out with the PGAT and tried to get both sides working to an amicable deal. Well that hasn't happened because certain players are involved and have no idea. As for this "deal", it's not about merging LIV with the PGAT. In the end, LIV will have a cut off on their tournaments for points and start recruiting younger golfers. eg: I would throw $20mill at Miles and Kim. The SSG with the PGAT cannot compete. 

 

And they shouldn’t even try, because throwing $20 million at those two guys is the equivalent of lighting it on fire.  Their economic worth isn’t remotely close to that, and the PGA Tour shouldn’t care if LIV wants to throw money away.

 

Think about this.  If the goal of the PGA Tour is to advance the interest of its Tour Members, what could be better than convincing some rich guys to massively overpay them?  The PGA Tour needs to stop negotiating with an extornist, celebrate each time one of their members gets a massive payout from those wealthy idiots, and focus on leveraging it’s assets, which are many, to reinvent itself as the PGA US Pro Tour.  LIV will never, ever make a positive CFROI on their investment.  Never.  The economics of professional golf simply aren’t there, even in the best of times.  And in the worst of times, we all know that golf is the first sport to catch the A train to the shitter.

 

Total PGA Tour revenue is right below the French Soccer League, just above MLS and the Nippon Professional Baseball League.  LIV has already spent about 2x PGA Tour annual revenue, just buying players on 3-5 year contracts, before even considering salaries.  If I’m the commissioner of the PGA looking out for my players, I celebrate each time the PIF decides to throw money away on one of my players.  $300 million for Rahm?  That’s beyond moronic.  In 12 months, no one will even remember who he was.

 

Even if LIV were to get on even footing with the PGA Tour player wise AND convince half the sponsors to leave and support them, they’d still be massively underwater.  I still find it hard to see the threat.  

[Archimedes65]

5 hours ago, Danielson said:

 

I don't think they want to destroy it, I think they want to effectively own it and LIV is their way to force a hostile takeover or at least a pretty strong say in what the Tour does. But I am merely a small brained civilian so there's a decent shot I'm wrong about what a sovereign wealth fund is trying to do.

 

I would have agreed at first that they were taking dead weight, but a roster with Rahm, Cam Smith, Brooks, Bryson, DJ is pretty good. They have some other guys who are not necessarily likeable but are still pretty good tour pros. I think they've dealt a pretty big blow to the standard PGA Tour event. Luckily the Tour has Scottie doing generational things or I think this would all look a lot more tilted in LIVs favor.

 

How is it even remotely close to being tilted in LIV’s favor?  Let’s go back to June 2022, before the defections and the OWGR issue.

 

Here’s a split between the PGA Tour and LIV’s current players based on those rankings

 

PGA Tour

1,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,17,18

 

LIV

2,4,15,16,19,20

 

So the PGA Tour still has 80% of the Top 10, 80% of the Top 15 and 70% of the Top 20.  And LIV had to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 billion up front for those six players.  And have generated zero positive cash flow, but rather incurred massive losses, over the last two years.  And they have a CEO who thinks that 18-25 year olds checking their phone for LIV info a few seconds a day is a ‘massively valuable market’.  This is the organization threatening the future of the PGA Tour?  Seriously?  If so, the PGA Tour wasn’t much of a business to begin with.  If the PGA Tour does any deal with the PIF that isn’t a total win/destruction of LIV, this would be the biggest ownage in the history of M&A and the members should immediately file suit against the commissioner.

[DoughBack18]

21 hours ago, stinger_gc said:

so basically Tiger and bunch of corporate Execs are gonna determine golf’s future 

This phrase is a like Rorschach test for this subject. That is a pretty plain statement that summarizes an article, but as some of the responses show you can read into it whatever you’d like. 

[Titleist99]

50 minutes ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

How is it even remotely close to being tilted in LIV’s favor?  Let’s go back to June 2022, before the defections and the OWGR issue.

 

Here’s a split between the PGA Tour and LIV’s current players based on those rankings

 

PGA Tour

1,3,5,6,7,8,9,10,11,12,13,14,17,18

 

LIV

2,4,15,16,19,20

 

So the PGA Tour still has 80% of the Top 10, 80% of the Top 15 and 70% of the Top 20.  And LIV had to pay somewhere in the neighborhood of $1 billion up front for those six players.  And have generated zero positive cash flow, but rather incurred massive losses, over the last two years.  And they have a CEO who thinks that 18-25 year olds checking their phone for LIV info a few seconds a day is a ‘massively valuable market’.  This is the organization threatening the future of the PGA Tour?  Seriously?  If so, the PGA Tour wasn’t much of a business to begin with.  If the PGA Tour does any deal with the PIF that isn’t a total win/destruction of LIV, this would be the biggest ownage in the history of M&A and the members should immediately file suit against the commissioner.

Does sound a little goofy when you put it that way..... a total clown show. 🤣

[notsohard]

4 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

And they shouldn’t even try, because throwing $20 million at those two guys is the equivalent of lighting it on fire.  Their economic worth isn’t remotely close to that, and the PGA Tour shouldn’t care if LIV wants to throw money away.

 

Think about this.  If the goal of the PGA Tour is to advance the interest of its Tour Members, what could be better than convincing some rich guys to massively overpay them?  The PGA Tour needs to stop negotiating with an extornist, celebrate each time one of their members gets a massive payout from those wealthy idiots, and focus on leveraging it’s assets, which are many, to reinvent itself as the PGA US Pro Tour.  LIV will never, ever make a positive CFROI on their investment.  Never.  The economics of professional golf simply aren’t there, even in the best of times.  And in the worst of times, we all know that golf is the first sport to catch the A train to the shitter.

 

Total PGA Tour revenue is right below the French Soccer League, just above MLS and the Nippon Professional Baseball League.  LIV has already spent about 2x PGA Tour annual revenue, just buying players on 3-5 year contracts, before even considering salaries.  If I’m the commissioner of the PGA looking out for my players, I celebrate each time the PIF decides to throw money away on one of my players.  $300 million for Rahm?  That’s beyond moronic.  In 12 months, no one will even remember who he was.

 

Even if LIV were to get on even footing with the PGA Tour player wise AND convince half the sponsors to leave and support them, they’d still be massively underwater.  I still find it hard to see the threat.  

 

Your Analogies are fine, even sensible if, and a big if, if all parties were economically on par with each other. They are not. The issue/problem/or whatever you want to call it is this..PIF are just playing with fun money. You see it as billions, which it is...for PIF it's just a game. They profit 1 billion everyday.........I'll give you a simple analogy...I just purchased a Shimano Stella reel for $1400, why?, because i can. That same size reel at their bottom end can be bought for $189. See where i'm going with the "money" thing. It's ALL relative. 

[CDM]

5 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

I’m sorry, what are do mean the ‘rate’ of playing a private course?  Are you talking about the ‘reciprocal fee’? That’s not a comparable number to a public course rate, as the economics are entirely different.  Private course ‘rates’ are non-economic.

 

I’ve played many of the courses on the list I made and they are all worth every freaking penny they charge.  The difference between them and any $75 course out there is night and day.  If one cannot tell the difference between a course like say Spyglass and their local $75 muni, that’s a ‘them’ problem.  And the fact that the tee sheets are full at pretty much every single one of them tells me that plenty of people agree with me.

 

I meant rate you pay to play.  I was referring to the original post that listed the TOP 100 courses in the world. Sorry should have clarified it better I guess.  The list you made are all good courses, my point was they are public access....the ones you listed are 2x-3x time the other courses in the orignal post link (*private courses)

 

The ones you listed gouge as they are open to the public so there is easier access and the charge extensivly for them.  As I noted the ones you listed are good courses, but not worth the money compared to others if you are comparing the cost to each and what you get in return.  

[stinger_gc]

5 hours ago, Archimedes65 said:

 

Agreed, but that TD comment that I was quoting referred specifically to the future of LIV.  And if you don’t think LIV has been a key discussion point in the negotiations with the PIF, you haven’t been paying attention.  It is THE #1 issue in negotiations.  If not for LIV, the PGA Tour wouldn’t even be entertaining discussions with the PIF.

I think a big roadblock might be should LIV guys get equity in PGAT enterprises.