What wrong with this swing?

[dana dahlquist]

Don't say because you just say so.....

[Lngnokr71]

I'm no expert.......... it looks good to me....

[beachgrovejunior]

nothing?

[Konakid67]

I do not see anything wrong, your swing looks a lot like mine but I do not finish as high. I am pretty happy with my swing, I am having issues with my grip.

Kevin

[hoganfan924]

Well, since you asked. First, it's a little difficult with such few frames, but there are a couple of unusual things going on there that I don't care for. They're just my opinion. He might hit the ball great doing them but they don't represent my preferred way to swing a club:

1. He's getting out ahead of the ball quite a bit. His head at impact I'd estimate is at least 4 inches ahead of where his head is at address and since he's going from a "stacked Cg" set-up to at least a 10 deg. axis tilt at impact, his hips have slid forward several inches to get to the impact position. Considering the ball position looks pretty conventional, I'd think that move is going to require some hand manipulation to square the clubface (depending on the length of the club - wedge can get away with it, 6 iron probably not).

2. He's rotating his head forward in the initial dowswing move so that his central vision is a good foot in front of the ball, then he rotates his head back to the ball in the impact frame. Hard for the brain to adjust to the "ball moving" like that, IMHO.

Is this a test? lol

[Konakid67]

Yeah I just noticed the head movement, my head does not move that much during my swing so I guess that swing does not look like mine.
Kevin

[dana dahlquist]

The reason I put this up?
1. He's a good ball striker ( anyone on tour would like his motion, so Ive been told by a few)
2. His eyes and head are quit still, even at [u]aim[/u] points...
3. slight COG shift

Here is one from a lesson-http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lwhsTkxbnYU

[Swingtheclub]

Dana based on one slow motion swing it is very difficult to be accurate.

I have seldom seen a better backswing, I can not see the club face as clear as I would like but your lines and turn look incredible.

Then you make that big lateral shift and it appears you get out in front of it. You either have to block it or flip it.

I would cut down on the lat move and try and stay behind the ball more letting the club square naturally

I look forward to hearing what some of the comments are

Ken


Lol I thought it was your swing forget that part

[Dariusz J.]

Hi Dana.
Mike has a great swing. But you asked: for my taste (underlining: for my taste), his address position shows that his upper body CoG is shifted a bit too much to the rear (spine angle at address confirms it) and then he pulls too much at the first stage of the downswing via his left side in direction to the target.
I've seen Mike's swings on your site and YouTube that was a pure revelation and bit more pleasant to my eye than this one...athough this one is very good, too.
I bet you say that it had to be like this because of the shot pattern Mike had intended to hit...

Cheers

[slicefixer]

 

 

Nothing.....right hip isn't as "high" as most MORAD 07' players nor as high as I've seen this same fellow in other swings........as a result he's not as "on top' of it at the top as he is in other swings of his I've seen nor as much as other current MORAD players iron swings I've seen (most probably the reason for the excessive lateral movement of the upper body)......IMOP, it's basically just an "out ahead of it" knockdown struck primarily with the arms..........and that's a GREAT way to hit irons, especially short irons........

[irishfight4it]

severe slide towards targer, probably causing erratic shots.... all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact... this causes his little chicken wing release, he needs the feeling of "swinging left" in order to compensate for the drastic forward head and body movement... if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks.... he probably his many shots thin and is troubled with long irons and fairway woods...


how's that sound?

[hayam]

I know whats wrong.

Your playing with Top Flight pro range ball ...

[Konakid67]

[quote name='irishfight4it' post='846623' date='Jan 2 2008, 11:19 PM']severe slide towards targer, probably causing erratic shots.... all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact... this causes his little chicken wing release, he needs the feeling of "swinging left" in order to compensate for the drastic forward head and body movement... if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks.... he probably his many shots thin and is troubled with long irons and fairway woods...


how's that sound?[/quote]
I need to get some good video of my swing as mine is similar with irons no head movement but longer backswing on woods. His swing is sound, makes a good turn on the ball and and has a good movement through the ball. His fundamentals are there I think he just moves his head too much.
Kevin

[ironcheflam]

I see the hitch with the left arm on the follow through but i'm no expert.

my .02 cents

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='irishfight4it' post='846623' date='Jan 2 2008, 08:19 PM']severe slide towards targer, probably causing erratic shots.... all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact... this causes his little chicken wing release, he needs the feeling of "swinging left" in order to compensate for the drastic forward head and body movement... if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks.... he probably his many shots thin and is troubled with long irons and fairway woods...


how's that sound?[/quote]
all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact- Not true, depends on what shot your hitting.
if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks- or a spacific shot pattern that will never go left.

The reason I put this up was to see what you guys really look for. Most very good players hit one shot, high.
If this is a med shot the ball is forward the cog is forward on the down swing the body has more pivot.
If its higher the ball goes back more the cog stays back and the release is more down the line or to the right.

Note this seven iron would look more on top...

[irishfight4it]

yea its all a matter of theory... i was watching the 2006 grand slam champions clinic... and weir and tiger both said that the most common fault they see with players trying to knock a shot down is getting too far ahead of it... i like how tiger plays his knockdowns... just finishes with hands very low... its a great technique

[rosskoss]

With that much lateral shift, dude must be getting some serious compression. Does he hit the ball very low?

Overall, not a bad swing (from what can see through few frames) but the head motion and followthrough look flawed.

[spider]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' post='846768' date='Jan 2 2008, 11:32 PM'][quote name='irishfight4it' post='846623' date='Jan 2 2008, 08:19 PM']severe slide towards targer, probably causing erratic shots.... all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact... this causes his little chicken wing release, he needs the feeling of "swinging left" in order to compensate for the drastic forward head and body movement... if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks.... he probably his many shots thin and is troubled with long irons and fairway woods...


how's that sound?[/quote]
all good ball-strikers' heads actually move backwards away from the target at impact- Not true, depends on what shot your hitting.
if he releases more conventionally towards the target with full extension, he will hit big blocks or flip hooks- or a spacific shot pattern that will never go left.

The reason I put this up was to see what you guys really look for. Most very good players hit one shot, high.
If this is a med shot the ball is forward the cog is forward on the down swing the body has more pivot.
If its higher the ball goes back more the cog stays back and the release is more down the line or to the right.

Note this seven iron would look more on top...
[/quote]

Dana I need some help understanding the ball back in stance higher ball flight... ball forward lower ball flight. I am having a tough time getting it but guessing has something to do with COG that you speak of a lot. I think conventional wisdom has always been ball back knock it down ball forward higher flight. I also saw a post by the person of subject here stating the same thing.

I can see that Mike's swing is much different here as Slice says than the other swing of his. More pivot, maybe more cp release.. dunno just hackers guess.

I also think when a swing is posted... background on the golfer and level... would illicit different responses. IE. maybe he is trying to hit a certain shot and this isn't always his stock pattern if you know he is a good golfer. Like in subjective judging sports... the more you have seen the person and know their ability the more you are likely to give them the benefit of the doubt ... make sense?

thanks!

[dana dahlquist]

Spider. I hear ya.
The reason I posted this is to so what people’s perception of what the norm is and what really is going on.
Our way of thinking on hitting a higher shot is to bring the ball back more and get more shallow of a path to the ball. Think of it like this if the ball is up in front your tendency would to move forward to it and then know it down.
Next is to think of golf less about the clubface and more on what that path is doing to the ball.
Now as in anything some may disagree in it, but we found that it works.

[spider]

[quote name='dana dahlquist' post='847162' date='Jan 3 2008, 09:30 AM']Spider. I hear ya.
The reason I posted this is to so what people’s perception of what the norm is and what really is going on.
Our way of thinking on hitting a higher shot is to bring the ball back more and get more shallow of a path to the ball. Think of it like this if the ball is up in front your tendency would to move forward to it and then know it down.
Next is to think of golf less about the clubface and more on what that path is doing to the ball.
Now as in anything some may disagree in it, but we found that it works.[/quote]

Thanks Dana,

so you are saying ball position affects the pivot and the path of the club to the ball therefore changing the flight. Does your set up change as well?

Seems like the only one who got "it" was slicefixer and recognized it was a "way" to swing not a swing fault.

[Swingtheclub]

you know
Dana I am currently planning to experiement with ball position something I have not done in years

I hit the ball high I always figured I cupped it a bit at impact lately I think I get too steep in the downswing and that is costing me distance.

Two things are leading me to this experiment if I put the ball back to knock it down and make a full swing lots of times I beat it up in the air anyway I have no problem knocking down a 3/4 shot

Then I hit a shot the last time I played that confused me. I had a nine iron to hit over a tree this shot was like pudding to me I always look up before I look down

I moved the ball well forward in my stance Just to make sure I got it up

I flushed it but the balls launch angle taking off was lower than normal it was going up and no telling how high it would have been had it not hit the tree.

It was a different trajectory for me.

The feeling I got was if I move the ball up I may shallow out my down swing some we will have to see Like I said I never thought of myself being that steep until recently.

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='spider' post='847183' date='Jan 3 2008, 09:44 AM'][quote name='dana dahlquist' post='847162' date='Jan 3 2008, 09:30 AM']Spider. I hear ya.
The reason I posted this is to so what people’s perception of what the norm is and what really is going on.
Our way of thinking on hitting a higher shot is to bring the ball back more and get more shallow of a path to the ball. Think of it like this if the ball is up in front your tendency would to move forward to it and then know it down.
Next is to think of golf less about the clubface and more on what that path is doing to the ball.
Now as in anything some may disagree in it, but we found that it works.[/quote]

Thanks Dana,

so you are saying ball position affects the pivot and the path of the club to the ball therefore changing the flight. Does your set up change as well?

Seems like the only one who got "it" was slicefixer and recognized it was a "way" to swing not a swing fault.
[/quote]
You got it right.
Think of it this way. In Stans short game book, path and ball placements will and do change the shots. Same holds true to this. Many things can change ( ever so Slight I may add )
1. Centers of the body
2. Ball placements
3. Paths-Planes
All of them must have a rhym to reason for the actions.

Hittings a low 2 iron is very very opposite to hitting a low wedge. Loft situations change. Try it out and have fun with it.

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='kenk7us2002' post='847191' date='Jan 3 2008, 09:51 AM']you know
Dana I am currently planning to experiement with ball position something I have not done in years

I hit the ball high I always figured I cupped it a bit at impact lately I think I get too steep in the downswing and that is costing me distance.

Two things are leading me to this experiment if I put the ball back to knock it down and make a full swing lots of times I beat it up in the air anyway I have no problem knocking down a 3/4 shot

Then I hit a shot the last time I played that confused me. I had a nine iron to hit over a tree this shot was like pudding to me I always look up before I look down

I moved the ball well forward in my stance Just to make sure I got it up

I flushed it but the balls launch angle taking off was lower than normal it was going up and no telling how high it would have been had it not hit the tree.

It was a different trajectory for me.

The feeling I got was if I move the ball up I may shallow out my down swing some we will have to see Like I said I never thought of myself being that steep until recently.[/quote]
To me it sounds like your getting out of line impact alignments first. Sure mabey a tad steep. At 3/4 of a back swing how much shoulder turn do you have?

[Points]

I think Mike has a nice golf swing. Probably hits it really good. This is a perfect example of a good swing but not a good player using it. Before everyone gets fired up about this, I know lots of club pros that hit good with really pretty swings and I am sure that Dana would not have posted his swing if that was not the case.. But there is a reason that they are club pros and it surely is not there golf swing. I think that is where the method teachers of the world fall short. All the emphasis is on the swing. THE SWING IS NOT THAT IMPORTANT.

I mean lets face it no one is teaching people to let go of the club after impact. Yet Couples, Mickelson, and Singh all do it. Maybe we should start teaching it for all I know. Maybe letting go of the club is the new secret.

[Lake]

[quote name='Points' post='847255' date='Jan 3 2008, 12:53 PM']I mean lets face it no one is teaching people to let go of the club after impact. Yet Couples, Mickelson, and Singh all do it. Maybe we should start teaching it for all I know. Maybe letting go of the club is the new secret.[/quote]

When they hit it good...which I would dare to say is most of the time...all three players mentioned above execute the following correctly([u]The Golfing Machine [/u]by Kelly):

[u]1st Imperative[/u]- Flat left wrist. The sweetspot is never permitted to pass the Hands during impact.

[u]2nd Imperative [/u]- Clubhead lag pressure point. Despite a good bit of the right hand coming off the club the #3 Pressure Point (right forefinger) is dead behind the Shaft along w/ an on plane right forearm.

[u]3rd Imperative [/u]- Tracing the straight plane line. Whether they're thinking about it or not the direction of their club is on plane via #3 pressure point and right forearm. Most of us have seen VJ's practice set-up but for those that haven't here ya go. Definitely working on the 3rd imperative.

As far as Mike's swing I see:

Flat left foot + standard knee action(straigtening of the right leg in backswing) + shiftless hip(no lateral motion going back)+ delayed hip turn + rotated shoulder turn(turning shoulders perp. to spine)= hip slant with a lot of vertical motions combined with horizontal motions give you some serious forces not just going around the axis but up and down plus in and out of the GROUND. Very NIIIIIICE

[birdie_man]

Looks pretty darnED good. Do you have a driver or long iron swing?

[Points]

[quote name='lake' post='847409' date='Jan 3 2008, 03:57 PM'][quote name='Points' post='847255' date='Jan 3 2008, 12:53 PM']I mean lets face it no one is teaching people to let go of the club after impact. Yet Couples, Mickelson, and Singh all do it. Maybe we should start teaching it for all I know. Maybe letting go of the club is the new secret.[/quote]

When they hit it good...which I would dare to say is most of the time...all three players mentioned above execute the following correctly([u]The Golfing Machine [/u]by Kelly):

[u]1st Imperative[/u]- Flat left wrist. The sweetspot is never permitted to pass the Hands during impact.

[u]2nd Imperative [/u]- Clubhead lag pressure point. Despite a good bit of the right hand coming off the club the #3 Pressure Point (right forefinger) is dead behind the Shaft along w/ an on plane right forearm.

[u]3rd Imperative [/u]- Tracing the straight plane line. Whether they're thinking about it or not the direction of their club is on plane via #3 pressure point and right forearm. Most of us have seen VJ's practice set-up but for those that haven't here ya go. Definitely working on the 3rd imperative.

As far as Mike's swing I see:

Flat left foot + standard knee action(straigtening of the right leg in backswing) + shiftless hip(no lateral motion going back)+ delayed hip turn + rotated shoulder turn(turning shoulders perp. to spine)= hip slant with a lot of vertical motions combined with horizontal motions give you some serious forces not just going around the axis but up and down plus in and out of the GROUND. Very NIIIIIICE
[/quote]

Congrats Lake you further prove that you are able to quote out of a book!!!

[dana dahlquist]

[quote name='birdie_man' post='847439' date='Jan 3 2008, 01:14 PM']Looks pretty darnED good. Do you have a driver or long iron swing?[/quote][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaNLUdbEcMI"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NaNLUdbEcMI[/url]
This is the only one that is public ATM.....Camera is off a little...

Points- If I could put under the gun, wow.. Your right in what your saying. I just dont make enough.

[slicefixer]

[quote name='Points' post='847459' date='Jan 3 2008, 05:36 PM'][quote name='lake' post='847409' date='Jan 3 2008, 03:57 PM'][quote name='Points' post='847255' date='Jan 3 2008, 12:53 PM']I mean lets face it no one is teaching people to let go of the club after impact. Yet Couples, Mickelson, and Singh all do it. Maybe we should start teaching it for all I know. Maybe letting go of the club is the new secret.[/quote]

When they hit it good...which I would dare to say is most of the time...all three players mentioned above execute the following correctly([u]The Golfing Machine [/u]by Kelly):

[u]1st Imperative[/u]- Flat left wrist. The sweetspot is never permitted to pass the Hands during impact.

[u]2nd Imperative [/u]- Clubhead lag pressure point. Despite a good bit of the right hand coming off the club the #3 Pressure Point (right forefinger) is dead behind the Shaft along w/ an on plane right forearm.

[u]3rd Imperative [/u]- Tracing the straight plane line. Whether they're thinking about it or not the direction of their club is on plane via #3 pressure point and right forearm. Most of us have seen VJ's practice set-up but for those that haven't here ya go. Definitely working on the 3rd imperative.

As far as Mike's swing I see:

Flat left foot + standard knee action(straigtening of the right leg in backswing) + shiftless hip(no lateral motion going back)+ delayed hip turn + rotated shoulder turn(turning shoulders perp. to spine)= hip slant with a lot of vertical motions combined with horizontal motions give you some serious forces not just going around the axis but up and down plus in and out of the GROUND. Very NIIIIIICE
[/quote]

Congrats Lake you further prove that you are able to quote out of a book!!!
[/quote]



IMOP Points is DEAD ON..........a person CAN become a PLAYER with a reasonably fundamental golf swing/adequate ballstriking.....IMOP, Couples, Singh, and Mickelson are just that......(yes, even VJ....he hits WAAAY too many "double cross" drives for me to classify him as a great ballstriker) .in fact IMOP, MOST good PLAYERS are just that, adequate ballstrikers who can SCORE under pressure with their "Z" game ("they can take YOUR best and score with it and take YOUR worst and score with it, never mind their best/worst....they can get the bloody ball in the hole!).......

The MOST important thing is they are VERY good at SCORING.........meaning they can formulate a game plan and then they have the DISCIPLINE to stick to it unless "conditions" change and then have the ability to "adjust it on the fly".........are VERY good putters/chippers/pitchers.........can control their emotions enough so as to NOT affect the NEXT shot.........CAN handle the pressure, meaning they CAN "produce under pressure" (LOTS of guy's can do it on the range, but, a MUCH smaller % can do it under pressure......and the greater the pressure, the "higher the level," the % gets a LOT smaller..........they have a load of GUTS.........PASSION to PLAY the game to the best of THEIR abilities and are willing to SACRFICE basically everything in their lives to do so (at least when they are DEVELOPING their game)......etc. etc. etc.....

As for the golf swing, I will also PROMISE you this, the VAST majority aren't worrying about pressure points/radius locks/CP/CF/planes/angles/pulleys, etc. etc. etc......(a VERY, VERY small percentage might use TGM terminology when PRACTICING, but, rarely under competition)......they simply have a FEEL/"image" for THEIR swing and know what SIMPLE set up adjustments/THOUGHT adjustments to play the shot in their MIND ........then can PRODUCE the necessary impact dynamics to produce the shot the desire on the vast majority of occasions........... IMOP, you better "teach" em' using SIMPLE images/thoughts/drills, etc. or you'll RUIN most of em'.........you start talking "TGM" to guy's like Couples/Daly, etc.., in fact, the VAST majority of good players, and they'd look at you like you'd just lost your mind.......

IMOP, the MOST important thing in the golf swing is what is occurring in the "impact zone"........you find "fundamentally sound" way to become VERY consistent through the impact zone and you can "gain control over the golf ball"........which basically means you can CONTROL your bad shots........your bad shots, while poor, curve in the direction that you intended and are hit reasonably solid......"double crosses" are what KILL a players opportunity to post a number........"double cross" O N E tee shot a round, that's four a tournament ......."double crosses" usually result in bogeys, doubles, and worse.......doesn't take many "double crosses" and you have NO chance of winning the tournament, or of making the cut for that matter.........hard to shoot 20 under when your 8 over on 4 holes..........the "line" between 65 and 75 is pretty thin..................

[birdie_man]

lake WAS talking about the impact zone.

You MAY very well want to explain it differently to Daly/Couples (or whoever else) though.....