LA/OC Area "Value" Private Clubs

[G_MANG]

Given how much private fees skyrocketed during the past two years, does anyone have any insight on which more moderately priced clubs are going to be a step up from the better public courses (e.g., Oak Creek, Black Gold, etc.)? Or are they not going to be worth it unless you're playing 2-3x every week?

 

I'm in the South Bay . . . places like Los Coyotes, Aliso Viejo, Hacienda and Old Ranch seem to be way overpriced these days, even though it's unclear whether prices are ever going to go back down, so I'm curious if it's worth going somewhere like Candlewood, La Canada Flintridge, or California Country Club. Even if those places have POP that's going to be under 4hrs on the weekends I think it might be worth it. 

[tw422]

I went through this same exercise right before COVID and I'm sure things are way different now.  The one's you mentioned are the 3-4 I targeted (I also live in the South Bay).  PVGC, Virginia and Rolling Hills are not realistic (way too much $$$$).  Hacienda was too far and Old Ranch was too much for what it is - I can't imagine what they are asking for now?  Candlewood is not worth it - you can play it without being a member and it's an ok shorter course.  Don't know about La Canada and CCC and Mountaingate seems to tricked up for me.  Maybe try Braemar or Mesa Verde?  Unfortunately living in the South Bay does not bode well for someone who plays golf unless you are willing to write a big check (5-6 figures) and pay $1k mo in dues.  

Edited January 15, 2023 by tw422

[daegyu]

Don’t bother with la Canada. Its length makes it more like an executive course. Mountain gate was pretty Decent. South hills is relatively affordable and the course is ok. I’m a member of a club in the IE and I like it but it’s probably too far for most in la city. 

[fjk]

Oakmont seems reasonable and fun course in good condition. 
 

but proximity is important…

[tw422]

22 hours ago, fjk said:

Oakmont seems reasonable and fun course in good condition. 
 

but proximity is important…

Oakmont would be great but as you say proximity is important.  Not sure Glendale is reasonable/doable from Westside....

[G_MANG]

Is Oakmont any better than Hacienda? Distance is probably a wash and I'm not sure if there is a big difference on cost. I guess my other question is whether the experience (e.g., pace of play, conditions, tee sheet availability, etc.) is still going to be better at a Candlewood than somewhere like Black Gold, or if that's really a total waste if I'm only playing about once a week. 

Edited January 17, 2023 by G_MANG

[Pepperturbo]

I've played most of the private clubs in OCty & RCty, and held membership at two of the upper end clubs.  Finding financial "value" in a private club is difficult.  I've played Hacienda GC many times, it's maybe one of the best tournament tracks.  I know members there.  All private clubs that I've visited have increased their memberships.  The other aspect is club culture.  What are you looking for in a club???  The few clubs that I know that don't have high entrance costs/dues, have older memberships.

 

IMO, you're either going to have to suck it up and pay the freight or look at high-end public course membership, like Black Gold.  There's so much money in OCty and RCty, club rates are only going to keep rising.  Location is everything to finding a convenient club, but club costs are based on supply & demand.  I wish you luck.

[tw422]

3 hours ago, G_MANG said:

Is Oakmont any better than Hacienda? Distance is probably a wash and I'm not sure if there is a big difference on cost. I guess my other question is whether the experience (e.g., pace of play, conditions, tee sheet availability, etc.) is still going to be better at a Candlewood than somewhere like Black Gold, or if that's really a total waste if I'm only playing about once a week. 

I don't think Oakmont is better than Hacienda however both are a PIA to get to from the Westside.  As @Pepperturbo mentions there really aren't any value clubs that convenient.  I would pay the money and join somewhere like Wilshire, PVGC or Rolling Hills CC.  BTW - I'm not sure I would compare Candlewood and Black Gold in terms of experience and/or golf.  I think joining Black Gold for 1x a week is waste considering how much time you will spend driving to/from.

[fjk]

21 hours ago, tw422 said:

I don't think Oakmont is better than Hacienda however both are a PIA to get to from the Westside.  As @Pepperturbo mentions there really aren't any value clubs that convenient.  I would pay the money and join somewhere like Wilshire, PVGC or Rolling Hills CC.  BTW - I'm not sure I would compare Candlewood and Black Gold in terms of experience and/or golf.  I think joining Black Gold for 1x a week is waste considering how much time you will spend driving to/from.

I don’t know the current pricing but wilshire seems great price for the quality of the course. Location is central although not exactly convenient as it’s surrounded by traffic. 

[G_MANG]

On 1/17/2023 at 12:58 PM, tw422 said:

I don't think Oakmont is better than Hacienda however both are a PIA to get to from the Westside.  As @Pepperturbo mentions there really aren't any value clubs that convenient.  I would pay the money and join somewhere like Wilshire, PVGC or Rolling Hills CC.  BTW - I'm not sure I would compare Candlewood and Black Gold in terms of experience and/or golf.  I think joining Black Gold for 1x a week is waste considering how much time you will spend driving to/from.

By not compare Candlewood and Black Gold, what do you mean? I guess the original purpose of my post was to decide if doing daily fee at Black Gold is going to be better/worse of an experience than Candlewood (or other cheaper clubs) if I'm going to either about 1x/week anyway.

[manku]

It’s an hour to Wilshire from the South Bay.  Often worse.  Rarely better during golfing hours. 

 

Ive only played Candlewood once. Course was fine, but surrounding homes and area are not exactly Bel Air!   Some people may care.  
 

Hacienda is great, but will take you two hours minimum RT every round.   And sometimes four.
 

Golf in LA stinks unless you’re loaded.   
 

 

[tw422]

21 hours ago, G_MANG said:

By not compare Candlewood and Black Gold, what do you mean? I guess the original purpose of my post was to decide if doing daily fee at Black Gold is going to be better/worse of an experience than Candlewood (or other cheaper clubs) if I'm going to either about 1x/week anyway.

I just think they are two totally different courses as Candlewood is older, tight and somewhat run down and Black Gold tries to be an upscale daily fee course so not sure it was fair to compare them in that way. 

If you are between those two I think it's purely comes down to commuting time.  Depending on where you are coming from it could take an hour/hour and a half min each way to get back and forth to South Bay from Black/Gold.  I don't love the course enough to say I would definitely spend 2-3hrs a week in my car to play it.  Black Gold, to me, is penal off the tee and for what they charge not worth it ($117 during the week for non resident and $160 on weekends).  

 

Agree with @manku that Candlewood that it's fine an unless you are ultra wealthy the golf options in this area stink.  Although I just saw that Candlewood are charging $15k plus monthly dues for an equity membership!!!!! That's, frankly, offensive.  The junior exec membership is the way to go if you are under 39.  No way in hell I would pay full boat on the equity membership though. 

 

Where exactly do you live in South Bay?  If you can figure out how to get super early tee times Los Verdes is definitely an option.  I've played at 6am and rounds at that time are quick.  If you wait until 9-10am it's 5-5 1/2 hrs.  However, I don't know how to get a tee time before 3pm.  Also, Rancho Park (same tee time availability issues at Los Verdes) could be an option.  I think it's just as good as Candlewood and closer and cheaper.  Unfortunately there are no perfect options.

Edited January 19, 2023 by tw422

[G_MANG]

I'm in MB. Seems like Candlewood may actually be the way to go. I'd be fine playing something that's decent as long as the rounds are faster and it's not within a reasonable distance, which is much closer than Black Gold or Oak Creek (where I normally play). Seems like Candlewood is way more value than somewhere like Old Ranch, which I've played and was fine but is overpriced, or Mountaingate which I haven't played but seems like a similar issue (and I've heard has POP issues). I'm sure prices will come back down to earth in a couple of years.

 

I personally can never find early morning tee times at Los Verdes or Rancho -- no idea how you manage that -- and I think much of the appeal of a private club is not worrying so much about getting on to play Sat/Sun mornings. 

[tw422]

3 hours ago, G_MANG said:

I'm in MB. Seems like Candlewood may actually be the way to go. I'd be fine playing something that's decent as long as the rounds are faster and it's not within a reasonable distance, which is much closer than Black Gold or Oak Creek (where I normally play). Seems like Candlewood is way more value than somewhere like Old Ranch, which I've played and was fine but is overpriced, or Mountaingate which I haven't played but seems like a similar issue (and I've heard has POP issues). I'm sure prices will come back down to earth in a couple of years.

 

I personally can never find early morning tee times at Los Verdes or Rancho -- no idea how you manage that -- and I think much of the appeal of a private club is not worrying so much about getting on to play Sat/Sun mornings. 

I'm in MB too.  I'm came really close to joining Old Ranch and even Hacienda but the commuting times made no sense.   When I was looking deals were much better and you could negotiate with them.  Also, prior to COVID I had an office in Century City and could get an early AM tee time at Rancho (6-6:30am) and be done before lunch.  I had a city card and had no problems logging in and getting a time a week to 8-9 days out.  Now, forget it, even 9 days out and the only thing that is available is 5pm.  I have no idea what is happening?  I guess people literally stay up until 12:01am and log in and book times???  Same thing with Los Verdes although I've always had good luck just showing up at 5:45-6am and going on wait list.  But yes, more recently, forget getting a tee time online for both places.  

 

Candlewood isn't terrible but man I can't see paying 15k for a membership for that place.  Maybe $1-2k but $15k and then $500/mo??  That just seems insane for what it is.  I would rather drive down to Long Beach and Play  Navy, ElDo, SkyLinks, Rec Park or Lakewood.  

[Schley]

How much do you value your time is huge in such a traffic mess like LA.  1 hour in normal traffic is 90-120 minutes in traffic.  Each way.  One of the nice things about a private club is practice and 9 holes after work.

 

Say you play 50 rounds a year.  If you go for a place that averages 90 minutes each way over the place that is an hour.  That is 50 hours right there. Plus gas etc. Also are u really going to drive 3 hours to use the driving range?  You may do it if its 45 minutes each way.

 

The frustration of traffic will cause lack of motivation to go.  Then u paid let's say half what u would if it was a closer club.  I would almost always go with a close club, especially in LA.  In the future as u build your finances etc.  U can always join another or drop one for another.

 

After living in so cal for 10 years previously I was so glad to be out of that traffic.

[phitaumatthew]

Visited Oakmont recently and really liked it. The course looked amazing.

 

Keep hearing Lakeside is also very good, but no idea on cost to get in.

 

Obviously both are pretty hard to get to from the OC, but just food for thought.

[G_MANG]

I did not end up joining Candlewood . . . feels like it's a step down from Oak Creek, which has been my main course lately that is not too much farther. I have thought Oakmont, San Gabriel or Hacienda seem like my best options if/when I ever decide to join somewhere that's 30+ minutes away. Too bad that PVGC and Old Ranch are insanely overpriced these days, but perhaps prices will start falling a bit as the COVID boom seems to be slowing quite a bit, at least anecdotally.  

[BushwoodBlaster]

On 6/16/2023 at 11:19 AM, G_MANG said:

I did not end up joining Candlewood . . . feels like it's a step down from Oak Creek, which has been my main course lately that is not too much farther. I have thought Oakmont, San Gabriel or Hacienda seem like my best options if/when I ever decide to join somewhere that's 30+ minutes away. Too bad that PVGC and Old Ranch are insanely overpriced these days, but perhaps prices will start falling a bit as the COVID boom seems to be slowing quite a bit, at least anecdotally.  

Wow Old Ranch 2.5x'd their monthly fees in the last 3 years. Monthly is now over $1400/mo and over 40k initiation fee.  Seems absurd.

Edited August 21, 2023 by BushwoodBlaster

[fjk]

Saw an old ranch advertisement highlighting junior rates, but didn’t say what they were. 
 

interesting they have to advertise their membership. 
 

I don’t think pvgc dues are that bad compared to the area or for what you get in course quality and location. My member buddy says he’s around $800? And they’re open 7 days. 

[BushwoodBlaster]

7 hours ago, fjk said:

Saw an old ranch advertisement highlighting junior rates, but didn’t say what they were. 
 

interesting they have to advertise their membership. 
 

I don’t think pvgc dues are that bad compared to the area or for what you get in course quality and location. My member buddy says he’s around $800? And they’re open 7 days. 

This is quite good.  Is he a junior member or full member over 40?  Had numbers showing it at 1k/mo in 2020.

[fjk]

5 hours ago, BushwoodBlaster said:

This is quite good.  Is he a junior member or full member over 40?  Had numbers showing it at 1k/mo in 2020.

He’s a full member. Once you add in quarterlies (which aren’t that crazy) and capital dues etc maybe it does get close to $1k now or just over? but great course. Ocean weather. Ocean views. Challenging layout. Good conditions. 

[tw422]

1 hour ago, fjk said:

He’s a full member. Once you add in quarterlies (which aren’t that crazy) and capital dues etc maybe it does get close to $1k now or just over? but great course. Ocean weather. Ocean views. Challenging layout. Good conditions. 

PVGC would be great for anyone in South Bay however isn't their wait list a mile long now?  I believe initiation for non PVE residents is around $70k too.

[pb_n_joe]

On 8/17/2023 at 2:50 PM, BushwoodBlaster said:

Wow Old Ranch 2.5x'd their monthly fees in the last 3 years. Monthly is now over $1400/mo and over 40k initiation fee.  Seems absurd.

That is offensive. Wow. 

 

PVGC is now $95k initiation + $1.1k/mo (as of Feb) for non-residential. Not that it's relevant, given their waitlist is 100+ people long (estimated 6+ years), as @tw422 pointed out

[fjk]

21 minutes ago, pb_n_joe said:

That is offensive. Wow. 

 

PVGC is now $95k initiation + $1.1k/mo (as of Feb) for non-residential. Not that it's relevant, given their waitlist is 100+ people long (estimated 6+ years), as @tw422 pointed out

True. Waitlists are crazy. 

[BushwoodBlaster]

Anyone a member or played at Alta Vista?  If so thoughts on the course.  As a non-equity club is there wiggle room on the initiation fee or do they offer any kind of trial membership?

Edited August 22, 2023 by BushwoodBlaster

[BushwoodBlaster]

2 hours ago, pb_n_joe said:

That is offensive. Wow. 

 

PVGC is now $95k initiation + $1.1k/mo (as of Feb) for non-residential. Not that it's relevant, given their waitlist is 100+ people long (estimated 6+ years), as @tw422 pointed out

How do the dues work for older members?  Does the membership board or owner if not member owned just increase dues for the entire membership where the entire membership pays the same monthlies if they are in the same category of membership or do newer members often pay more than older members for monthlies?  

[fjk]

1 hour ago, BushwoodBlaster said:

How do the dues work for older members?  Does the membership board or owner if not member owned just increase dues for the entire membership where the entire membership pays the same monthlies if they are in the same category of membership or do newer members often pay more than older members for monthlies?  

I think it is flat across the board.

[tw422]

23 hours ago, pb_n_joe said:

That is offensive. Wow. 

 

PVGC is now $95k initiation + $1.1k/mo (as of Feb) for non-residential. Not that it's relevant, given their waitlist is 100+ people long (estimated 6+ years), as @tw422 pointed out

That initiation for PVGC is insane.  

[G_MANG]

23 hours ago, tw422 said:

That initiation for PVGC is insane.  

It is also a non-equity club where there is no refund/reimbursement if you get rid of your membership. I think it is the worst financial club in the greater LA area for that reason and am not sure there is any club charging that much that does not have some kind of repayment structure if you ever decide to leave. You may need to spend $150k or whatever for Rolling Hills, but that money is essentially locked up and not just gone for good. 

[tw422]

47 minutes ago, G_MANG said:

It is also a non-equity club where there is no refund/reimbursement if you get rid of your membership. I think it is the worst financial club in the greater LA area for that reason and am not sure there is any club charging that much that does not have some kind of repayment structure if you ever decide to leave. You may need to spend $150k or whatever for Rolling Hills, but that money is essentially locked up and not just gone for good. 

Wow, I did not know that about PVGC and that makes it even more of a bad deal.  Is Rolling Hills an equity club?  How do you get your money back with them?  Have to find someone to buy it?