Swing advice

[aaronjohnston]

I have recently been working on my swing after getting back into golf. I have been watching Shawn Clement and the grip was the first port of call.

 

So I address the ball with a closed club face then get behind the ball which makes it look more square at address. I believe I'm swinging good but i hook or slice a lot.

 

So I think this is down to the release and I'm looking to see if anyone can point anything out in my swing?

 

 

[dfeldss]

I'll let some more qualified than me give more specific tips, but that swing is wayyyyyy too long 

 

[aaronjohnston]

6 minutes ago, dfeldss said:

I'll let some more qualified than me give more specific tips, but that swing is wayyyyyy too long 

 

 

Yea this is one thing many have said. It feels comfortable to me though.

[Sean124]

13 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

Yea this is one thing many have said. It feels comfortable to me though.

Comfortable isn’t producing the desired results.

[aaronjohnston]

6 minutes ago, Sean124 said:

Comfortable isn’t producing the desired results.

Yea maybe. I believe it's the release through the ball towards the target. Swing plane looks on point.

[Primo1868]

TLDR:  If you want to play that with a swing that is comfortable, then don't seek advice about changing the swing and do more skill based training.

 

Your first response to someone's critique was defensive. Based on that, it does not appear you are receptive to a random person's feedback (whether they are qualified to provide that or not). If you want to go through the improvement process doing what is "comfortable" and not making swing changes that are suggested, then here is the path I would take (for reference, I am following this process as well in my current game):

 

Your swing is decent enough to make contact with the ball on a semi frequent basis, so, let's look at skill-based training based on ball flight laws. You say that you commonly hook or slice the ball:

1) a hook comes from the club face being closed relative to the swing path. 

2) a slice comes from the club face being open relative to the swing path. 

3) a straight ball comes from the club face being neutral to swing path. 

As a rule of thumb, face angle sends it, and path bends it.

 

What I would do, if I were you (assuming you want to keep a swing that is comfortable), is put an alignment stick 8 ft in front of where you are hitting golf balls from directly down the target line. Then, hit golf balls while focusing on starting everything to the RIGHT of the alignment stick, which will self-ingrain what it feels like to have an open face (relative to target) at impact. Next, hit golf balls while focusing on starting everything to the left of the alignment stick, which will self-ingrain what it feels like to have a closed face (relative to target) at impact.  Once you get comfortable enough with repeatedly starting the ball on either side of the alignment stick, you will have a more skilled face control motor pattern and can then choose what ball flight will be more consistent and repeatable. Further, you will have the skills to know what it feels like to manipulate the face angle on course as a skill and not as a "swing bandaid". This type of learning is earned in the dirt. 

 

 

All the best!

 

 

[aaronjohnston]

11 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

TLDR:  If you want to play that with a swing that is comfortable, then don't seek advice about changing the swing and do more skill based training.

 

Your first response to someone's critique was defensive. Based on that, it does not appear you are receptive to a random person's feedback (whether they are qualified to provide that or not). If you want to go through the improvement process doing what is "comfortable" and not making swing changes that are suggested, then here is the path I would take (for reference, I am following this process as well in my current game):

 

Your swing is decent enough to make contact with the ball on a semi frequent basis, so, let's look at skill-based training based on ball flight laws. You say that you commonly hook or slice the ball:

1) a hook comes from the club face being closed relative to the swing path. 

2) a slice comes from the club face being open relative to the swing path. 

3) a straight ball comes from the club face being neutral to swing path. 

As a rule of thumb, face angle sends it, and path bends it.

 

What I would do, if I were you (assuming you want to keep a swing that is comfortable), is put an alignment stick 8 ft in front of where you are hitting golf balls from directly down the target line. Then, hit golf balls while focusing on starting everything to the RIGHT of the alignment stick, which will self-ingrain what it feels like to have an open face (relative to target) at impact. Next, hit golf balls while focusing on starting everything to the left of the alignment stick, which will self-ingrain what it feels like to have a closed face (relative to target) at impact.  Once you get comfortable enough with repeatedly starting the ball on either side of the alignment stick, you will have a more skilled face control motor pattern and can then choose what ball flight will be more consistent and repeatable. Further, you will have the skills to know what it feels like to manipulate the face angle on course as a skill and not as a "swing bandaid". This type of learning is earned in the dirt. 

 

 

All the best!

 

 

 

With all due respect there has been no defensiveness in the slightest. I have simply replied to each comment. There are many people who have overswings and still can make it work.
Also there hasn't been any changes suggested at all.

 

That aside, I do like the advice you have given in terms of the alignment stick and try to focus on left and right to get the feeling. I guess coming back to golf I need to get the feeling back again.

[Primo1868]

5 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

With all due respect there has been no defensiveness in the slightest. I have simply replied to each comment. There are many people who have overswings and still can make it work.
Also there hasn't been any changes suggested at all.

 

That aside, I do like the advice you have given in terms of the alignment stick and try to focus on left and right to get the feeling. I guess coming back to golf I need to get the feeling back again.

If you want some reference material on skill based training, Adam Young has great online content and reading material (granted this is all paid content) - look for, "The Strike Plan" and/or, "The Practice Manual". 

 

Goodluck!

[wagolfer7]

Lot of height changes throughout your swing.  Little is OK, but you are moving 6+ inches in your backswing.  

 

As for the results you are getting.  Coming in way too steep.  Clubface is not going to be consistent.  Especially with driver.  

 

I'd start with posture - really hunched over.  

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

59 minutes ago, Primo1868 said:

If you want some reference material on skill based training, Adam Young has great online content and reading material (granted this is all paid content) - look for, "The Strike Plan" and/or, "The Practice Manual". 

 

Goodluck!

A giant +1 to this.  Adam's drills, advice, and materials (The Practice Manual is a great book on learning, not just how to learn to play golf better) are top-notch.

 

But seriously OP, think about shortening that backswing.  You might be comfortable with the length, but it doesn't sound like you're comfortable with the results.  A change in your swing definitely will not be comfortable at first, but with time will likely help you have a more consistent strike.

 

Paraphrasing something Monte mentioned here, not wanting to feel uncomfortable in learning a new technique, is one of the biggest impediments to getting better at golf, and learning anything new.

 

Damned sure this pressure shift footwork is feeling weird to get ingrained, while at the.same time, I'm trying to do more of a flexed wrist and pulling back with my right shoulder and butt cheek.  "Rubbing my head and patting my stomach," is exactly right...  But the results the few times I get it together so far, are worth it.

[aaronjohnston]

2 hours ago, Primo1868 said:

If you want some reference material on skill based training, Adam Young has great online content and reading material (granted this is all paid content) - look for, "The Strike Plan" and/or, "The Practice Manual". 

 

Goodluck!

 

Thank you for this. Been looking around at different coaches. Been watching Shawn Clement and Tom Saguto. I have a new post coming actually in regards to this.

 

Will check out this Adam Young.

[aaronjohnston]

1 hour ago, wagolfer7 said:

Lot of height changes throughout your swing.  Little is OK, but you are moving 6+ inches in your backswing.  

 

As for the results you are getting.  Coming in way too steep.  Clubface is not going to be consistent.  Especially with driver.  

 

I'd start with posture - really hunched over.  

 

Ok I notice that height change also.

 

Do you mean my posture is hunched over?

[aaronjohnston]

1 hour ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

A giant +1 to this.  Adam's drills, advice, and materials (The Practice Manual is a great book on learning, not just how to learn to play golf better) are top-notch.

 

But seriously OP, think about shortening that backswing.  You might be comfortable with the length, but it doesn't sound like you're comfortable with the results.  A change in your swing definitely will not be comfortable at first, but with time will likely help you have a more consistent strike.

 

Paraphrasing something Monte mentioned here, not wanting to feel uncomfortable in learning a new technique, is one of the biggest impediments to getting better at golf, and learning anything new.

 

Damned sure this pressure shift footwork is feeling weird to get ingrained, while at the.same time, I'm trying to do more of a flexed wrist and pulling back with my right shoulder and butt cheek.  "Rubbing my head and patting my stomach," is exactly right...  But the results the few times I get it together so far, are worth it.

 

Thank you for the +1 and the heads up here. Hogans swing was shorter and I guess Finau is the same.

Stack and Tilt is based on a shorter swing also?

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

1 minute ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

Thank you for the +1 and the heads up here. Hogans swing was shorter and I guess Finau is the same.

Stack and Tilt is based on a shorter swing also?

No idea about those that you mentioned, besides Finau's being short.  But of course, he does other stuff too, and more importantly, his swing is consistent.

 

I've no quibble with a long backswing, provided it can be done consistently.  By your post, and by most mortals' experiences (including my own) it can't.  In my case, I'd early extend, lose spine angle, lose grip, lose sight of the ball---all trying to get to what I thought felt like a full swing---all bad for consistent contact with the ball and turf afterwards.

 

If though your path and release were grooved, and you were getting to a great impact position and strike, time after time?  Well then who cares how long your swing is, as it's clearly working for you?

[aaronjohnston]

4 minutes ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

No idea about those that you mentioned, besides Finau's being short.  But of course, he does other stuff too, and more importantly, his swing is consistent.

 

I've no quibble with a long backswing, provided it can be done consistently.  By your post, and by most mortals' experiences (including my own) it can't.  In my case, I'd early extend, lose spine angle, lose grip, lose sight of the ball---all trying to get to what I thought felt like a full swing---all bad for consistent contact with the ball and turf afterwards.

 

If though your path and release were grooved, and you were getting to a great impact position and strike, time after time?  Well then who cares how long your swing is, as it's clearly working for you?

 

Yea well as you say it's all bad for "consistent contact" which is the opposite of what I'm getting at the moment. Early extending is flipping or reaching at the ball? 

[wagolfer7]

21 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

Ok I notice that height change also.

 

Do you mean my posture is hunched over?

 

Yes you should work on your setup position / posture and probably take a look at your grip while your at it.  

 

There's so many things to look at.  If you really want to improve, I'd recommend some lessons.  

 

Your overswing because of the many issues below:

1) Hips turn first and way too early.

2) Hip turn too flat

3) Hips max out by P2

4) Disconnection from upper and lower body

5) Late arm lift

6) Sequencing is backwards

 

It's a rare problem to be able to overswing when your moving the body correctly.  Typically in amateurs overswinging is caused by too much and incorrect movements.  

[aaronjohnston]

5 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

Yes you should work on your setup position / posture and probably take a look at your grip while your at it.  

 

There's so many things to look at.  If you really want to improve, I'd recommend some lessons.  

 

Your overswing because of the many issues below:

1) Hips turn first and way too early.

2) Hip turn too flat

3) Hips max out by P2

4) Disconnection from upper and lower body

5) Late arm lift

6) Sequencing is backwards

 

It's a rare problem to be able to overswing when your moving the body correctly.  Typically in amateurs overswinging is caused by too much and incorrect movements.  

 

 

Lessons are something I am looking at local and close to home, instead of online coaching.

 

I see what you mean with hips. I thought that my hips and shoulders/arms turn together as one then the arms come up to the top of backswing.

[aaronjohnston]

 

An Iron swing.

[wagolfer7]

3 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

 

Lessons are something I am looking at local and close to home, instead of online coaching.

 

I see what you mean with hips. I thought that my hips and shoulders/arms turn together as one then the arms come up to the top of backswing.

 

You can move them together if they are moving properly.  Or you can let them sequence together if moving properly - shoulder turn gets chest to turn gets hips to turn.  

 

You are just turning your hips right now.  That just causes problems.  Look at your latest 7 iron video.  Your first move off the ball - kicks your lead knee towards the ball way too much - it's because of the excessive and incorrect way you move your hips.  Then you undo that move on the way down - now your trail hip just gets closer to the ball.  All these things make it really hard to be consistent or hit it well.  

 

Your hips and shoulders need to move behind you and up.  

 

Arms don't lift the club. 

 

Again there's a lot you could look at.  But you need start the beginning of the sequence.  Your bad posture - is making you stand up even more than you would with good posture.  The ball is standing still - the more you move up / down or forward / backward with your whole body the harder it is to hit something standing still.    

[aaronjohnston]

7 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

You can move them together if they are moving properly.  Or you can let them sequence together if moving properly - shoulder turn gets chest to turn gets hips to turn.  

 

You are just turning your hips right now.  That just causes problems.  Look at your latest 7 iron video.  Your first move off the ball - kicks your lead knee towards the ball way too much - it's because of the excessive and incorrect way you move your hips.  Then you undo that move on the way down - now your trail hip just gets closer to the ball.  All these things make it really hard to be consistent or hit it well.  

 

Your hips and shoulders need to move behind you and up.  

 

Arms don't lift the club. 

 

Again there's a lot you could look at.  But you need start the beginning of the sequence.  Your bad posture - is making you stand up even more than you would with good posture.  The ball is standing still - the more you move up / down or forward / backward with your whole body the harder it is to hit something standing still.    

 

Ok i hear what you are saying here. 

 

So the sequence is shoulders, chest then hips?

I was taught the opposite way round. 

I thought shoulders first leads to arms lifting.

 

See what you mean though, if hips are going first then chest then shoulders, I am ending up with the overswing this way. My lead knee goes towards ball to make room for more hip turn, trail leg extends here to make room for hips turning and going back. 

 

I think I see what you mean here though. From what I was taught by Shawn Clement many years ago it was hips, chest and then shoulders. But you have highlighted something here.

[wagolfer7]

4 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

Ok i hear what you are saying here. 

 

So the sequence is shoulders, chest then hips?

I was taught the opposite way round. 

I thought shoulders first leads to arms lifting.

 

See what you mean though, if hips are going first then chest then shoulders, I am ending up with the overswing this way. My lead knee goes towards ball to make room for more hip turn, trail leg extends here to make room for hips turning and going back. 

 

I think I see what you mean here though. From what I was taught by Shawn Clement many years ago it was hips, chest and then shoulders. But you have highlighted something here.

 

You missed the bigger picture.  It's the way you move your hips that's really killing you.  You can correct the sequence, but the way you move your hips will still cause problems.  

 

Hips don't turn.  Hips move behind you and up.

 

If your trying to self-learn then I recommend going through Padraig Harringtons channel.  But a lesson from a pro would be the best. 

 

Look at how much your hips have rotated here compared to Rory - who has some of the most hip turn on tour.  It's not that your more flexible than Rory - it's that you are moving your hips completely differently. 

 

  

 

 

 

[aaronjohnston]

22 minutes ago, wagolfer7 said:

 

You missed the bigger picture.  It's the way you move your hips that's really killing you.  You can correct the sequence, but the way you move your hips will still cause problems.  

 

Hips don't turn.  Hips move behind you and up.

 

If your trying to self-learn then I recommend going through Padraig Harringtons channel.  But a lesson from a pro would be the best. 

 

Look at how much your hips have rotated here compared to Rory - who has some of the most hip turn on tour.  It's not that your more flexible than Rory - it's that you are moving your hips completely differently. 

 

  

 

 

 

 

 

Wow I have just watched Padraig's video on hips. I seen his channel pop up last week and I ignored it. Now you have recommended it and I have just heard something I never been taught before in regards to the golf swing.

 

You have also nailed it here too. And I see what you mean by myself and Rory side by side, its not that I have more hip turn, it's that I am turning them round instead of my shoulders and chest going around which brings the trail hip in and up. I go with hips then chest then shoulders and it's creating this overswing and poor posture also?

I am actually from Northern Ireland so it's ironic you have referred to Rory here.

 

[Jayjay_theweim_guy]

5 hours ago, aaronjohnston said:

 

....Early extending is flipping or reaching at the ball? 

Different, but related.  They're both compensations for movements and postures you have earlier in the swing, and without those compensations, you couldn't hit the ball successfully at all.

 

See:  

 

 

The solution is not to get rid of the early extension, per se, but to learn the right way to set up, turn, and transition so that you don't need a compensation like early extension.

 

See:

 

 

Monte's Power Shift series is excellent for this as well.

 

[MonteScheinblum]

5 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Different, but related.  They're both compensations for movements and postures you have earlier in the swing, and without those compensations, you couldn't hit the ball successfully at all.

 

See:  

 

 

The solution is not to get rid of the early extension, per se, but to learn the right way to set up, turn, and transition so that you don't need a compensation like early extension.

 

See:

 

 

Monte's Power Shift series is excellent for this as well.

 

That was 11 years ago.  Not terrible. 😜

[aaronjohnston]

7 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Different, but related.  They're both compensations for movements and postures you have earlier in the swing, and without those compensations, you couldn't hit the ball successfully at all.

 

See:  

 

 

The solution is not to get rid of the early extension, per se, but to learn the right way to set up, turn, and transition so that you don't need a compensation like early extension.

 

See:

 

 

Monte's Power Shift series is excellent for this as well.

 

 

Thank you very much for these. Awesome videos to explain things. 

 

And great point above. The solution isn't to rid the compensations as these are naturally happening. The body is Incredibly smart. Learning the right moves and how to do things more effectively is the solution. 

 

Thanks for the assistance. 

[aaronjohnston]

7 hours ago, Jayjay_theweim_guy said:

Different, but related.  They're both compensations for movements and postures you have earlier in the swing, and without those compensations, you couldn't hit the ball successfully at all.

 

See:  

 

 

The solution is not to get rid of the early extension, per se, but to learn the right way to set up, turn, and transition so that you don't need a compensation like early extension.

 

See:

 

 

Monte's Power Shift series is excellent for this as well.

 

 

 

Also just for claritys sake here this early extension isn't happening too much with me? You were referring to what you done personally and not what I'm doing in my swings? 

[RoyalTroon]

21 hours ago, aaronjohnston said:

So I address the ball with a closed club face then get behind the ball which makes it look more square at address. I believe I'm swinging good but i hook or slice a lot.

 

You have some set up work to do first, and the above quote will become road kill in your future.  Doesn't matter what it looks like, it's a closed face no matter where or how you stand,  and your brain knows this it because your eyes acquired a target off in the distance and your hands have hold of the club.    If I was working with you there would be no need to go any further until it's addressed.

Edited May 13, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[aaronjohnston]

11 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

You have some set up work to do first, and the above quote will become road kill in your future.  Doesn't matter what it looks like, it's a closed face no matter where or how you stand,  and your brain knows this it because your eyes acquired a target off in the distance and your hands have hold of the club.    If I was working with you there would be no need to go any further until it's addressed.

 

 

Just been watching Mike Malaska and how he teaches to grip the club. He says let the hands hang naturally and whichever way your left wrist is hanging should be how left wrist looks while gripping the club. So it looks like a strong grip. Only issue I have with this is it places a lot of shaft lean on the club in order to not feel all twisted in the wrist and forearm.

[RoyalTroon]

31 minutes ago, aaronjohnston said:

Just been watching Mike Malaska and how he teaches to grip the club. He says let the hands hang naturally and whichever way your left wrist is hanging should be how left wrist looks while gripping the club.

 

Makes much more sense and I would agree with MM on that process and lead hand orientation, but with an addition.   If you can find that left hand hold orientation but with the first groove perpendicular to the horizon at eye level you'll have a pretty solid hold of things.  It helps to grip the club while club is in the air. 

[aaronjohnston]

19 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Makes much more sense and I would agree with MM on that process and lead hand orientation, but with an addition.   If you can find that left hand hold orientation but with the first groove perpendicular to the horizon at eye level you'll have a pretty solid hold of things.  It helps to grip the club while club is in the air. 

 

 

yea i grip lead hand while holding shaft in the air with right hand. So the shaft lean isn't an issue here?