The classical swing, a force and loading analysis

[Zitlow]

Mike Dunaway 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

21 hours ago, chipa said:

 

Maybe I should have stated "a classical takeaway"?

Maybe you shouldn't claim to know what "most pros" do in their swings, because nothing about what you are on about is what most pros do at all.

[RoyalTroon]

On 5/17/2023 at 8:31 PM, chipa said:

I no longer actively try to release my hands though, that's built into the mechanics, which include the forward press.

 

Not wild on hovering the club, or forward pressing to the degree you've shown,  but leaving the hands alone is a good thing, keep going- in a good sequence the hands will know what to do very late.  

[RoyalTroon]

2 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Maybe you shouldn't claim to know what "most pros" do in their swings, because nothing about what you are on about is what most pros do at all.

 

The only time I was able to find the words "most pros" was here:

 

On 5/17/2023 at 12:42 PM, chipa said:

From my perception the classical swing focus at address is an athletic stance and the left shoulder and lat muscles ready to adduct. Due to the large muscles being involved in the left shoulder adduction most pros with very few exceptions start the swing with the left arm very straight extending down from the shoulder(force) and the left shoulder rolled in slightly on the body.

 

Could use more clarity,  but this particular perception by chipa does not seem to support your suggestion that "nothing about what you are on about is what most pros do at all", because it is something. 

Edited May 19, 2023 by BALLYBUNION
clarity

[Zitlow]

This is what I would consider a classical takeaway. Also he has a bent left arm at the top which is bad according to some "experts". 

 

Walter Hagen. @hartman29 he was born in Rochester.

 

 

 

[chipa]

2 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Not wild on hovering the club, or forward pressing to the degree you've shown,  but leaving the hands alone is a good thing, keep going- in a good sequence the hands will know what to do very late.  

 

Yes, that is what I have learned first starting with Bobby Jones and then later purposely adducting the left shoulder. The release is automatic. BTW, I learned to hover the club from Walter Hagen, I learned this keeps the pressure on the feet the same(a little more on the right side) until I'm ready to swing. This enables the legs to have the "active leg tension" Hogan discussed.

 

 

 

Edited May 19, 2023 by chipa

[slytown]

Back pain in the modern golf swing comes from horizontal hips and excessive shoulder tilt. If the differential between the two axes is too small, all of the weight of the upper body and force is put into the lower back and spine. This is why most older or poor golfers simply swing OTT. It's easier on the back to swing with level shoulders and hips. I wish teachers taught away from this stack and tilt that has kind of seeped into traditional swing instruction. A slide is fine and a horizontal shoulder is fine, so long as the path of the club is correct and the rotation is late. 

[Hawkeye77]

5 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

The only time I was able to find the words "most pros" was here:

 

 

Could use more clarity,  but this particular perception by chipa does not seem to support your suggestion that "nothing about what you are on about is what most pros do at all", because it is something. 

 

I quoted it, so should be pretty easy to find, lol.  You're off base.

[RoyalTroon]

46 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

I quoted it, so should be pretty easy to find, lol.  You're off base.

 

It was easy to find thanks to 'find in page' technology to see if the words "most pros" was used by chipa in more than one area of a swing, or used in more than one of his posts within the thread-  such as most pros do this about the feet,  or most pros do this about the arms, or most pros do this about the legs, etc., for example.      As it turned out it appears chipa used the phrase as it relates to a left, or lead side, shoulder-arm area adduction.   It appears to be a common element with elite players so it seems chipa was on to 'something' and your comment to him stating "nothing about what you are on is what most pros do at all" is not accurate.    Not off base at all.    Just my opinion, as always.

[hammersia]

I'm not convinced any of this thread is really "golf" as such.

OP any idea what your angle of attack is with an 8 iron for example? Serious question.

[RoyalTroon]

2 hours ago, slytown said:

I wish teachers taught away from this stack and tilt that has kind of seeped into traditional swing instruction.

 

It's not difficult finding agreement with this.  Weight transferring through the strike is a better, and easier on the body, way to go in the opinion of many. 

 

 

[Hawkeye77]

1 hour ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

It was easy to find thanks to 'find in page' technology to see if the words "most pros" was used by chipa in more than one area of a swing, or used in more than one of his posts within the thread-  such as most pros do this about the feet,  or most pros do this about the arms, or most pros do this about the legs, etc., for example.      As it turned out it appears chipa used the phrase as it relates to a left, or lead side, shoulder-arm area adduction.   It appears to be a common element with elite players so it seems chipa was on to 'something' and your comment to him stating "nothing about what you are on is what most pros do at all" is not accurate.    Not off base at all.    Just my opinion, as always.

Oh brother.

 

Once again, I quoted it, so it would be staring you in the face.  And no, it wasn't in relation to any kind of adduction, it was a suggestion that most pros employ a one piece takeaway.

 

So again:  "The Classical swing I am referring to is the one piece takeaway that most pros employ."  That's what was quoted and can be seen now a few times without resort to some search function.

 

And again, and accurate, he's wrong and you are still off base with the remarks. 

 

 

[RoyalTroon]

@Hawkeye77

 

I see where the fork in the road probably sits.    I was referring to the definition basis chipa established in his original OP- 3rd paragraph, 2nd line,  and it appears you were quoting in post #18 for reference how he labeled that process.       In his opening remarks he defines part of the load properties coming from the lead side, that most pros use, which would also fall under his definition, or labeling, but a load can be quantified, the labeling is subjective.  So I still see a discussion that could be held but for now I'll continue following and discuss as it may.  Thanks for the patience and clarification.   Off base?......lol.

Edited May 19, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[Hawkeye77]

40 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

@Hawkeye77

 

I see where the fork in the road probably sits.    I was referring to the definition basis chipa established in his original OP- 3rd paragraph, 2nd line,  and it appears you were quoting in post #18 for reference how he labeled that process.       In his opening remarks he defines part of the load properties coming from the lead side, that most pros use, which would also fall under his definition, or labeling, but a load can be quantified, the labeling is subjective.  So I still see a discussion that could be held but for now I'll continue following and discuss as it may.  Thanks for the patience and clarification.   Off base?......lol.

 

 

No fork - I don't care why you couldn't stop getting something wrong that just required reading a post you claimed couldn't exist even when you were told how to find it.  

Carry on with the "engineer" . . .

 

 

[RoyalTroon]

44 minutes ago, Hawkeye77 said:

No fork - I don't care why you couldn't stop getting something wrong that just required reading a post you claimed couldn't exist even when you were told how to find it.  

 

Carry on with the "engineer" . . .

 

Simply coming from a different place and perspective from not seeing that you quoted chipa in post #18 about the one piece takeaway and the "most pros" tag.       I'm not sure why the software 'find on page' didn't pick up the quote on the first run through but it might have been user error on my part.   That's what it is. 

 

What I like about reading chipa's posts is he's mostly trying to learn a swing from the roots of his own diligence and not necessarily relying on other friends or experts to force feed, or present,  a solution to him.    That's a truer path to ownership in my opinion because no one can give you a golf swing, it's something you have to manufacture for yourself.   Carry on with whatever you have planned.

Edited May 20, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[chipa]

6 hours ago, hammersia said:

I'm not convinced any of this thread is really "golf" as such.

OP any idea what your angle of attack is with an 8 iron for example? Serious question.

 

I've never video'ed my swing from the rear. I play DCI's 962's and my 8 iron goes about 150 with a draw. The longer the club is the farther I hit it, no doubt due to the fact the metal rods in my back prevent me from bending over with the lower part of my spine. I also only take 3/4 swings with my irons.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, chipa said:

I've never video'ed my swing from the rear.

What’s that have to do with AoA of an 8I?

[PracticeSwinger]

7 minutes ago, iacas said:

What’s that have to do with AoA of an 8I?

So we don’t see the ball never leaving ground with a +6* AoA for a 8i?… haha let’s move along

[chipa]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

What’s that have to do with AoA of an 8I?

 

I misread my apologies - I hit down on my short and mid irons.

[iacas]

1 hour ago, chipa said:

I misread my apologies - I hit down on my short and mid irons.

That’s not a number. If you want to lend some validity to some of the things you’re saying you would go beyond a video and your feels and get on a launch monitor, a 3D system, etc.

 

Even some good slow mo video from multiple angles would help your case.

[jmevox]

Besides fast swing speed on an entry level launch monitor. Why would anyone adopt this swing? Your handicap is over 10 and your friend who uses the same swing is worse. You say its to swing pain free but in one of your other posts you say you can’t practice much cause your back and knees are injured…

[chipa]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

That’s not a number. If you want to lend some validity to some of the things you’re saying you would go beyond a video and your feels and get on a launch monitor, a 3D system, etc.

 

Even some good slow mo video from multiple angles would help your case.

 

I appreciate your advice. However, I have two daughters in college and one in a private high school and I cover all of their living expenses. I am an engineer and just about everything I make is used up in living expenses. I buy used and component clubs and all I could afford was a the Atlas radar. I am also not asking for money for any of what I have learned. Given the fact that my doctor told me at 21 to be careful and never lift more than 30 lbs for the rest of my life and here I am at 57 playing golf and working out well I feel very fortunate and would like to share what I've learned with others with no string attached.

 

I would like to add that you as a pro should recognize that no amount of strength can substitute for adequate technique and that high clubhead speeds are not attainable no matter what the strength of the individual person is if their technique is poor. Based on this and the fact that I'm 57 with 3 fused vertebrae and weak knees should be evidence that I'm on to something. While I am very disciplined regarding fitness as might be expected given my precarious health condition I would have to be honest and tell you that all the years I have been weightraining since the 80's that while I have been on the stronger side I was nothing exceptional in any area. Currently, I could probably do 70 good pushups, 18 pullups, 35 dips, a couple of front squats to 90 deg. with 255 pounds(to protect my knees). I'm sure my routine has helped me but since I stumbled onto this loading scenario my clubhead speed has jumped 10 mph with less effort.

Edited May 20, 2023 by chipa

[chipa]

58 minutes ago, jmevox said:

Besides fast swing speed on an entry level launch monitor. Why would anyone adopt this swing? Your handicap is over 10 and your friend who uses the same swing is worse. You say its to swing pain free but in one of your other posts you say you can’t practice much cause your back and knees are injured…

 

My prior swing based on the Classical Takeaway method was much worse on my back. This technique doesn't hurt me, what hurts me is sitting all day at my desk working and walking. My back is fused twisted so my hips are pointed to the left which hurts my knees. I'm almost 60 as well.

 

Golf isn't that important to me that's why I limit myself to 10 swings at home at no more than 40 at the range.

[Zitlow]

@chipaI took lessons from Mike Austin who would have been ridiculed off the forum in no time for not conforming to the "group think" mentality prevalent here.

 

 

[chipa]

Just now, Zitlow said:

@chipaI took lessons from Mike Austin who would have been ridiculed off the forum in no time for not conforming to the "group think" mentality prevalent here.

 

 

 

I learned a great deal from Mike Austin's videos. Specifically, his videos about the right side release and later how to grip the club with the left hand. It would been a blessing to be able to meet him in person, you have been quite fortunate.

[Zitlow]

[RoyalTroon]

@chipa

 

No need listening to noise coming from those within an echo chamber preoccupied by their own footsteps.      Like I said before, keep looking, keep evaluating, keep questioning, keep trying- it's your time not theirs, it's your back not theirs, and it's your ultimate ownership, right or wrong, not theirs, and that is a wonderful place to be.  

Edited May 20, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[Albatross Dreamer]

7 hours ago, chipa said:

 

My prior swing based on the Classical Takeaway method was much worse on my back. This technique doesn't hurt me, what hurts me is sitting all day at my desk working and walking. My back is fused twisted so my hips are pointed to the left which hurts my knees. I'm almost 60 as well.

 

Golf isn't that important to me that's why I limit myself to 10 swings at home at no more than 40 at the range.

Maybe you'd have better luck if you stopped saying "golf isn't that important to me" when you've done detailed research on golf swings and have made multiple threads on this topic. It's ok to say "I love golf and am trying to play pain free as long as I can, even if I don't get to play it as much as I'd like".

 

The fact that you have a fused back, rotated pelvis and get pain from walking automatically means what works for you isn't necessarily applicable to others. The main thing you're possibly showing is that the swing changes MIGHT work for a very specific set of limitations (I'll leave out whether or not I'd argue it's the best way of achieving it and/or if it might have downstream repercussions due to other places having to compensate). So far it seems your primary retort has been "it's working for me right now so it must be right why won't you agree". Your way might be right for you, but others may be correct in their concerns with it too.

[chipa]

1 hour ago, Albatross Dreamer said:

Maybe you'd have better luck if you stopped saying "golf isn't that important to me" when you've done detailed research on golf swings and have made multiple threads on this topic. It's ok to say "I love golf and am trying to play pain free as long as I can, even if I don't get to play it as much as I'd like".

 

The fact that you have a fused back, rotated pelvis and get pain from walking automatically means what works for you isn't necessarily applicable to others. The main thing you're possibly showing is that the swing changes MIGHT work for a very specific set of limitations (I'll leave out whether or not I'd argue it's the best way of achieving it and/or if it might have downstream repercussions due to other places having to compensate). So far it seems your primary retort has been "it's working for me right now so it must be right why won't you agree". Your way might be right for you, but others may be correct in their concerns with it too.

 

Keep in mind this swing has worked for my friend Javier as well. His back also is much better. He doesn't drop his right shoulder like me nor does he have the same leg action nor does he train as hard as I do in the gym. Yet he can reach 105 mph with his 45" driver.

 

There are other pros that resist initially with their legs like Couples, Furyk and Wolff, which is really the main premise of our technique. We added a forward press because we both pull our right hand and shoulder back initially, which is difficult to do with a forward press because the right hand and arm go forward initially. Many good players have used(use) a forward press as well like Bobby Jones, Mike Austin, John Daly, Ernie Els, DJ Johnson, Matt Wolff and Henrik Stenson.

[PracticeSwinger]

10 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Believe me I’m not coming from an echo chamber, I’ve got an open mind and will listen actively to try and better myself, but isn’t what you just quoted the same as saying that those who teach ‘new swing theories’ successfully to the vast majority of guys on Tour nowadays, that they have rendered the Mike Austin, Steve Elkington swing thoughts model obsolete?