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The classical swing, a force and loading analysis


chipa

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2 hours ago, hammersia said:

I say that because it must be very different to your driver swing, which is a considerably positive AofA.

 

 

 

I posted my 4 iron swing in the other thread. I hit my irons well I just don't hit them that far compared to many nowadays. They are '99 962 DCI's and I got them because of the looks and reviews plus they help me hit the ball high with spin, which is what I need for my home course.

 

My driver swing is the most aggressive partly because I don't have to bend over so much which is more comfortable, just enough to ensure the weight is on the balls of my feet, which is imo essential to achieving Hogans "active leg tension" fairly easily.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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Easy technique to feel the legs loading like the pros

 

There is a very easy technique to feel what the pros feel when they start their backswing. Stand ready at address and have someone stand to the left of you and have them push your left shoulder straight back away from  the target. Initially only a slight force applied to the shoulder may cause one to lose their balance based on my experience with my friend Javier. However, with very little practice one learns to adjust the legs accordingly and push back against the hand pushing the left shoulder.

 

Pros like Freddy Couples and Matthew Wolff would have the same sensation in the legs as both resist initially with the hips before the left shoulder pulls the left hip back.

 

However, the majority of pros do turn their left hips early in the backswing and this is a complicated move, the most difficult move in golf to master in my opinion. What I have personally felt when I have this move right is that the left hip turns in and the left leg extends at the same time and along with the left shoulder adducting down both the left leg and shoulder actively push against the right leg, hip and lower back that in response load immediately.

 

What I have found is that for the most part the lower back must be more flexible for this to work, which in my particular case hurts my surgically repaired back. Holding the legs, hips and lower back still initially like Couples and Wolff protect my lower back. With the delayed left shoulder adduction the legs and hips and lower back are allowed to stay under flexible tension and take the load of the left shoulder adducting as a whole, thus stressing each member less as the force is distributed over more of the body, hence less pain for those with weak backs.

 

As a consequence of the legs hips and backs actively resisting using more parts of the body their is more force available to generate clubhead speed without having to turn the shoulders vigorously through the ball.

Edited by chipa

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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33 minutes ago, chipa said:

Easy technique to feel the legs loading like the pros

 

There is a very easy technique to feel what the pros feel when they start their backswing.


Buddy… c’mon man. I’ve pushed back a little. Sample size. Poor measurements. Etc. But this may be the worst yet. Both “easy” and “feel.”

 

And that’s ignoring the rest.

 

You don’t know what they feel. Nor do you know what someone else will feel when they do that.

 

i’ve given lessons back to back before and students relayed entirely opposite feels for the same mechanics.

 

Feels are weird. Many things aren’t easy, or are really easy for some but oddly difficult for others.

 

You’re not doing yourself any favors here.

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Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 29. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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5 minutes ago, iacas said:


Buddy… c’mon man. I’ve pushed back a little. Sample size. Poor measurements. Etc. But this may be the worst yet. Both “easy” and “feel.”

 

And that’s ignoring the rest.

 

You don’t know what they feel. Nor do you know what someone else will feel when they do that.

 

i’ve given lessons back to back before and students relayed entirely opposite feels for the same mechanics.

 

Feels are weird. Many things aren’t easy, or are really easy for some but oddly difficult for others.

 

You’re not doing yourself any favors here.

 

This practice technique has worked for myself and Javier as well.

 

Also, I have been weightraining since 1986 and categorizing "feels" is common among weightlifters, and quite effective. It is also common in other sports as well. While it may not work for you I would ask that you keep an open mind and not discourage others to not try it please.

Edited by chipa
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"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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Golfwrx article "Swing efficiency: How ugly golf swings win"

 

"The fact of the matter is that all great ball-strikers begin by generating speed from their lower body and transferring that speed through their torso into their arms and then into the club. What style they use to complete this signature is completely unique to each player."

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/52501/swing-efficiency-how-ugly-golf-swings-win/

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, chipa said:

Golfwrx article "Swing efficiency: How ugly golf swings win"

 

"The fact of the matter is that all great ball-strikers begin by generating speed from their lower body and transferring that speed through their torso into their arms and then into the club. What style they use to complete this signature is completely unique to each player."

 

https://www.golfwrx.com/52501/swing-efficiency-how-ugly-golf-swings-win/

Which means stop trying to sell an “ugly” golf swing as “the” prescription for other golfers, especially when you really don’t know what does or doesn’t work in any golf swing that does work. 
 

Works for you, that’s great, it really is. All the rest isn’t really groundbreaking (nor makes sense). 

Edited by Hawkeye77
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Just now, Hawkeye77 said:

Which means stop trying to sell an ugly golf swing as “the” prescription for other golfers, especially when you really don’t know what does or doesn’t work in any golf swing that does work. 
 

Works for you, that’s great, it really is. All the rest isn’t really groundbreaking (nor makes sense). 

 

The technique I have proposed works for my friend Javier as well.

 

Also, as I've mentioned numerous times my technique is the same one employed by Freddy Couples the only difference is my left arm is bent at address and I do a forward press. I hope you at the very least recognize that Freddy Couple's technique is valid. Take care.

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"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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6 hours ago, chipa said:

This practice technique has worked for myself and Javier as well.

 

Define "worked." Because I can stand flat-footed and swing a SuperSpeed stick 125. Doesn't mean it's a good golf swing.

 

None of what you posted addressed the sample size (it's still just two of you) or the poor measurements (you basically don't even have any. Those you do have are just a swing speed radar).

 

6 hours ago, chipa said:

Also, I have been weightraining since 1986 and categorizing "feels" is common among weightlifters, and quite effective.

 

It's not in golf.

 

6 hours ago, chipa said:

It is also common in other sports as well.

 

This is my job, you know, right? I'm not moonlighting as a guy kinda sorta studying the golf swing.

 

6 hours ago, chipa said:

While it may not work for you I would ask that you keep an open mind and not discourage others to not try it please.

 

It's got nothing to do with having an open mind. And I'm not even sure you know what "it" is You haven't even recorded your swing from down the line, IIRC, and you haven't measured much of anything.

 

5 hours ago, Hawkeye77 said:

Which means stop trying to sell an “ugly” golf swing as “the” prescription for other golfers, especially when you really don’t know what does or doesn’t work in any golf swing that does work. 
 

Works for you, that’s great, it really is. All the rest isn’t really groundbreaking (nor makes sense). 

 

Yep. To all of that.

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 29. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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9 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Define "worked." Because I can stand flat-footed and swing a SuperSpeed stick 125. Doesn't mean it's a good golf swing.

 

None of what you posted addressed the sample size (it's still just two of you) or the poor measurements (you basically don't even have any. Those you do have are just a swing speed radar).

 

 

It's not in golf.

 

 

This is my job, you know, right? I'm not moonlighting as a guy kinda sorta studying the golf swing.

 

 

It's got nothing to do with having an open mind. And I'm not even sure you know what "it" is You haven't even recorded your swing from down the line, IIRC, and you haven't measured much of anything.

 

 

Yep. To all of that.

Just a reminder you're spending a lot of effort debating either an excellent troll or someone delusional

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2 minutes ago, Trippels said:

Just a reminder you're spending a lot of effort debating either an excellent troll or someone delusional

 

Ha ha ha. I type quickly. But yeah, you're probably right. 😄 

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 29. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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7 hours ago, chipa said:

 

 

Big Couples fan here chipa.  

 

Freddy misspoke a little when saying he tried to hit the ball as hard as he could, that was the effect.    He did that by getting the shaft to his left shoulder as quickly as possible from the top , which resulted in a pretty hard crunch.  

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I swung out from underneath myself, from the lower part of my body.   Byron Nelson

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1 hour ago, hammersia said:

Please be careful playing in tennis shoes, young lad I know slipped walking off a tee box and had bad ankle ligament damage. 

your buddy didn’t hurt himself playing golf, he hurt himself walking lol. 

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2 hours ago, hammersia said:

Very astute observation, although doesn't appertain to my point. 

sure it does. playing in sneakers is fine as long as you aren’t a klutz. 

Edited by ChipStrokes
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TM SIM2 7W 21º | Fujikura Ventus Black 10X
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On 5/18/2023 at 10:07 PM, iacas said:

 

I didn't say "at impact." I said "I'd really, really push back hard on the left knee being bent late in the follow-through…".

 

 

Good luck. I think if what you were doing was a "good" way to go, Tour players with bad backs would have adopted it. Instead, you don't really see it at all.

 

 

Now look at players from this century. There are reasons we moved away from the big reverse C type finish. One of those reasons: they're not great for your back.

 

Again, good luck, man. Stay healthy.

 

Regarding your comment about the reverse C finish, I am not promoting this, in fact please notice that I finish standing tall a lot like Walter Hagen. I believe Hagen resisted initially with both legs given that his upper left arm goes out initially looking from the rear and as a consequence of having both legs, hips and lower back resist the force of releasing this tension keeps the back straight and tall at the finish.

 

The goal of our swing method is to play without pain well into old age. It turns out the legs are capable of generating a lot of power with adequate hand and arm mechanics, which we copied from Mike Austin and John Daly.

"Shirtsleeve" swing technique:

1. Setup: Elbows bent forearms pressed together against shaft slightly forward of center with "Hogan" "active/flexed" leg tension left foot turned out slightly and the right leg slightly farther to the right - weight mostly on balls of feet butt of left hands sits on the top of the grip with very light grip.

2. Swing - W/o disturbing weight distribution of legs and feet lower hands while doing a forward press "swing trigger" then the left upper arm takes over on the backswing, it needs to go out in front of the body then back in front of the chest as the hands trace down initially then up to over the right shoulder "Torres". The goal is to not disturb the pressure of the feet during the initial takeaway.

 

Notes:

1. Only swing thought after swing trigger - extend left arm at shirt sleeve when reaching left hand over right shoulder "Shirtsleeve technique".

2. The upper left arm move "Shirtsleeve technique" can be practiced independently without a club, sitting down for instance

3. The correct feet tension can be felt by doing very short hops on the balls of the feet then holding the same feeling of pressure on the front of the feet and then taking three practice swings with the grip very loose in order to not disturb the same pressure on the feet and on the 3rd swing actively do the "Shirtsleeve" move. From there the swing should be done within a matter of seconds to not lose the feel of the legs resisting, this way this is not a learned technique as much as it is a setup technique.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, chipa said:

Regarding your comment about the reverse C finish, I am not promoting this

 

I didn't say you did. The point I was making is that golf largely moved away from the front knee still being bent in the follow-through:

 

image.jpeg.23309db96627eda5ebcc357316c19962.jpeg

 

I mean, this was pretty obvious, IMO, as the comment to which I directly responded to with that was "Add Moe Norman, Jack Nicklaus  and Tom Weiskopf to the number of world class players that had their left leg bent noticeably at impact."

 

We've moved away from that to front knees straightening, extending, jumping FAST.

 

Beyond that… again… good luck.

  • Like 1

Erik J. Barzeski | Erie, PA

GEARS • GCQuad MAX/FlightScope • SwingCatalyst/BodiTrak

I like the truth and facts. I don't deal in magic grits: 29. #FeelAintReal

 

"Golf is the only game in which a precise knowledge of the rules can earn one a reputation for bad sportsmanship." — Pat Campbell

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