Driver shafts Early/Mid release 105+ Swing speed

[N.Lesyshen]

Hello I had a post about golf ball selections which turned into me posting numbers I was getting on my new SC300i. I've never had a LM before or known my specs but for 30 years knew I was always spinning ball too much off driver. So did a bunch of testing last few days only to find out my Dynamic Loft is high 17-22* and spin is in the 3200-3800 range using drivers set to 7* and low spin balls. Slow motion video shows I have a early to mid release with my wrists so must be the reason and need shaft ideas to try.

For years I've been using Stiff to X-stiff shafts cause that's what everything always said for Fast tempo fast swing and they say stiff tip. Until just this week never even knew about my release and how needed softer tip not Stiff tip which seems like reason my Launch and spins high.

Tried few different drivers but here is some stats and specs for you.

Mizuno STG220 Hzrdus Smoke RDX 6.5 shaft 60gr

Tried all lofts but even at 7* setting weights forward to lower launch getting

Srixon Z-Star XV ball in every swing

These are averages over 42 swings

264.8 carry

281.2 Total

105.2 SS

156.7 BS

17.4* Launch

1.49 Smash

152.7 Feet Apex

3662 rpm spin

 

I tried changing release yesterday to see if I coukd get some lag but after 30 years of golf and baseball can't change my release so it is what is and most repeatable for now.

 

I don't need a "new" shaft to try just would like some ideas of Stiff/xstiff shafts that have soft tips  made for fast tempo that I can look at used and see if they actually lower launch and spin. Don't have any fitters around for 6-8 hours 1 way so that's out of the question.

 

 

Can someone watch video to see if this is early or mid release cause I know my hands don't pass ball and I flip over at contact. Doesn't happen with irons and my hands are ahead of ball with launch well below static Loft so no idea why I can't do that with driver

[Stuart_G]

It's not an early release.

 

Dynamic loft (and spin) is high because of how far behind the ball your hands and upper body are at impact.   That's also likely causing the impact a bit low on the face which is increasing spin even more. 

 

You want impact to move up the face at least 1/4" if not a full 1/2".  That alone can drop the spin quite a bit. ~5-800 rpm. Maybe even a bit more.

 

This is a setup/swing issue - not an equipment issue and a shaft change is unlikely to help.  

 

Looks like you're hanging your body back in a attempt to hit up more on the ball.   If so, that's backfiring on you.   Yes you're AoA is up but the dynamic loft went up with it and therefor so did the spin.  With that release you'd likely be better of with a more neutral AoA.   You might try moving the ball back in the stance a bit and lowering the tee height - both could possibly encourage a delivery with lower AoA and (more importantly) less dynamic loft.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Stuart_G

[N.Lesyshen]

8 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

It's not an early release.

 

Dynamic loft (and spin) is high because of how far behind the ball your hands and upper body are at impact.   That's also likely causing the impact a bit low on the face which is increasing spin even more. 

 

You want impact to move up the face at least 1/4" if not a full 1/2".  That alone can drop the spin quite a bit. ~5-800 rpm. Maybe even a bit more.

 

This is a setup/swing issue - not an equipment issue and a shaft change is unlikely to help.  

 

Looks like you're hanging your body back in a attempt to hit up more on the ball.   If so, that's backfiring on you.   Yes you're AoA is up but the dynamic loft went up with it and therefor so did the spin.  With that release you'd likely be better of with a more neutral AoA.   You might try moving the ball back in the stance a bit and lowering the tee height - both could possibly encourage a delivery with lower AoA and (more importantly) less dynamic loft.

 

This was original video and yesterday after I had someone suggest moving back and teeing lower I lowered good inch and back 4" but same spin and same Launch angle. Did see lots of dead center or 1/4" up from center hits but spin still is 3200-3400 and launch still 16-18* I tried moving ball back to my 5 iron position which to me is middle stance and same numbers. This is why I read Tom Wishon say that could be a stiff tip issue and try softer tip then someone said I was releasing early so thats what I went by.

[Stuart_G]

19 minutes ago, N.Lesyshen said:

This was original video and yesterday after I had someone suggest moving back and teeing lower I lowered good inch and back 4" but same spin and same Launch angle. Did see lots of dead center or 1/4" up from center hits but spin still is 3200-3400 and launch still 16-18* I tried moving ball back to my 5 iron position which to me is middle stance and same numbers.

 

How low did you go with the tee height?

 

Sounds like your body is compensating for the different ball position to get back to the same position relative to the ball.  That's really the only way you'll still get those high dynamic loft numbers (and spin).   Are you still feeling like you're trying to hit the driver with an upward AoA?  If so, you really want to change that.

 

Also - not sure I'd trust the spin numbers from the SC300.  It doesn't really measure it directly.  It calculates it based on some assumptions about impact that may or may not be true for each individuals swing (especially with drivers - thanks to gear effect).

 

 

19 minutes ago, N.Lesyshen said:

This is why I read Tom Wishon say that could be a stiff tip issue and try softer tip then someone said I was releasing early so thats what I went by.

 

There are a couple ways one can interpret "early release."    More commonly in equipment fitting it refers to when one starts the release without any implications on the final impact position.  Think of a early - but slower release (Steve Striker) - not a a lot of late wrist motion.    But it can also mean an early but still quick release - which does effect impact.  More commonly referred to as "casting."

 

What happens with a shaft stiffness feel change can be very different for different individuals - so don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with playing around with different shafts to see what happens.   I just wouldn't have very high expectations that it will fix things for you.   Your natural sense of rhythm and timing is what it is and it's hard to change.   Yes there is a chance it might slow down the transition or release - but for others it can also make things worse.   It's just as common (if not more so) for softer shaft to increase the chances one will flip and over-close the face.  It's also possible that if it does help, it might not be a long term fix. You might revert back to your natural tendencies as you get more a more used to the new, softer feel.   Or it also can have some other negative side effects to consistency and shot shape control.  

 

So, again, while it doesn't hurt to give it a try (other than the cost of the shaft) you do need to watch out for those potential problems.

 

And any softer feeling shaft should help you determine if that might help - it doesn't necessarily have to be a soft tipped shaft.  If you can find a friend with a reg flex shaft or even senior flex that might be useful to see if it's worth pursuing that line of thought.

 

 

[N.Lesyshen]

16 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

How low did you go with the tee height?

 

Sounds like your body is compensating for the different ball position to get back to the same position relative to the ball.  That's really the only way you'll still get those high dynamic loft numbers (and spin).   Are you still feeling like you're trying to hit the driver with an upward AoA?  If so, you really want to change that.

 

Also - not sure I'd trust the spin numbers from the SC300.  It doesn't really measure it directly.  It calculates it based on some assumptions about impact that may or may not be true for each individuals swing (especially with drivers - thanks to gear effect).

 

 

 

There are a couple ways one can interpret "early release."    More commonly in equipment fitting it refers to when one starts the release without any implications on the final impact position.  Think of a early - but slower release (Steve Striker) - not a a lot of late wrist motion.    But it can also mean an early but still quick release - which does effect impact.  More commonly referred to as "casting."

 

What happens with a shaft stiffness feel change can be very different for different individuals - so don't get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with playing around with different shafts to see what happens.   I just wouldn't have very high expectations that it will fix things for you.   Your natural sense of rhythm and timing is what it is and it's hard to change.   Yes there is a chance it might slow down the transition or release - but for others it can also make things worse.   It's just as common (if not more so) for softer shaft to increase the chances one will flip and over-close the face.  It's also possible that if it does help, it might not be a long term fix. You might revert back to your natural tendencies as you get more a more used to the new, softer feel.   Or it also can have some other negative side effects to consistency and shot shape control.  

 

So, again, while it doesn't hurt to give it a try (other than the cost of the shaft) you do need to watch out for those potential problems.

 

And any softer feeling shaft should help you determine if that might help - it doesn't necessarily have to be a soft tipped shaft.  If you can find a friend with a reg flex shaft or even senior flex that might be useful to see if it's worth pursuing that line of thought.

 

 

I have a bunch of regular shafts as well so maybe I'll try one out to see what happens when my sleeves show up. I lowered ball to about 1/3-1/2 ball showing over topline. Ya my swing has always been like this and don't get me wrong I use to drive almost every FW and won few junior club championships first 2 years I played golf but since then started to read online where they say fast tempo and fast swing needed stiff tip and low torque so thats why I always bought those type of shafts. Ever since I get lots driver spin with no roll and my misses are always pull draw or pull hooks never ever fade or slice.

I've also always played 8.5* until they started making adjustable hosels and crazy I get those Apex numbers at 7* with shafts stated Low/Low so ya I must have upwards AofA. I'm going to get a Garmin R10 for the indoor season so get real numbers as well as dispersion and this was just a purchase to get some basic speed numbers and launch to see what I was doing.

[Stuart_G]

1 hour ago, N.Lesyshen said:

I have a bunch of regular shafts as well so maybe I'll try one out to see what happens when my sleeves show up. I lowered ball to about 1/3-1/2 ball showing over topline.

 

That's a good start but you could try even a bit lower. The point is to prevent the low point of the swing from getting too far behind the ball - without hitting the ground first - and still maintaining good center face impact.  That kind of forces you not to add too much dynamic loft - and the swing the driver more like your other clubs - which don't have the same problem.    Now if you do go that route - you may end up even needing more loft.

 

1 hour ago, N.Lesyshen said:

then started to read online where they say fast tempo and fast swing needed stiff tip and low torque so thats why I always bought those type of shafts.

 

Just like everything else - that's a rough generalization at best - not a true "need".   Good for starting the fitting process but not reliable enough to make a final decision just based on that.

 

 

1 hour ago, N.Lesyshen said:

Ever since I get lots driver spin with no roll and my misses are always pull draw or pull hooks never ever fade or slice.

 

That's potentially a good sign that going back might help - assuming the current motion hasn't become too ingrained.

 

 

 

[N.Lesyshen]

30 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

That's a good start but you could try even a bit lower. The point is to prevent the low point of the swing from getting too far behind the ball - without hitting the ground first - and still maintaining good center face impact.  That kind of forces you not to add too much dynamic loft - and the swing the driver more like your other clubs - which don't have the same problem.    Now if you do go that route - you may end up even needing more loft.

 

 

Just like everything else - that's a rough generalization at best - not a true "need".   Good for starting the fitting process but not reliable enough to make a final decision just based on that.

 

 

 

That's potentially a good sign that going back might help - assuming the current motion hasn't become too ingrained.

 

 

 

Thanks for all the insight I was really hoping someone could help direct me and you have given me some direction to try and see. I never even knew that I was mostly arms and no lower body till I showed a video of my swing and someone pointed out. Also never even knew I was swinging up at ball and adding loft but once I did start going longer tees I felt middle of the face way more and you can feel that crack compared to I was always hitting low on face before. Now just need to work on AoA to get that loft down to 12ish and gain those yards with the added lower spin

[Stuart_G]

51 minutes ago, N.Lesyshen said:

I never even knew that I was mostly arms and no lower body till I showed a video of my swing and someone pointed out.

 

I'm not a pro - but the way I see it, the problem isn't a lack of lower body action.   It might not be an ideal lower body motion and the sequencing between upper and lower bodies might not be the best.  Hard to say for sure from face on but likely even some early extension.   But while I can see what's happening,  I'm not qualified to figure out what the root cause of those problems might be from the perspective of the mechanics.   Usually (really almost always) there is a root cause that happens earlier in the swing that forces you to do that kind of (less than ideal) motion in order to make any kind of decent contact with the ball.   

 

Not saying this is the case with you but just one of hundreds of different examples, not being able to properly clear the hips can force a flip with the hands to make sure you release the club and get to impact before the hips get in the way and prevent you from being able to hit the ball.

 

 

But good luck.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Stuart_G

[N.Lesyshen]

9 minutes ago, Stuart_G said:

 

I'm not a pro - but the way I see it, the problem isn't a lack of lower body action.   It might not be an ideal lower body motion and the sequencing between upper and lower bodies might not be the best.  Hard to say for sure from face on but likely even some early extension.   But while I can see what's happening,  I'm not qualified to figure out what the root cause of those problems might be from the perspective of the mechanics.   Usually (really almost always) there is a root cause that happens earlier in the swing that forces you to do that kind of (less than ideal) motion in order to make any kind of decent contact with the ball.   

 

Not saying this is the case with you but just one of hundreds of different examples, not being able to properly clear the hips can force a flip with the hands to make sure you release the club and get to impact before the hips get in the way and prevent you from being able to hit the ball.

 

 

But good luck.

Ya I'm doing something majorly wrong and sure hope someone can see exactly what it is and if there is a cure. Whenever I watch videos on clearing hips or shifting weight or lag I can never make contact with the ball trying to replicate. Timing is so far off I give up

[Stuart_G]

6 minutes ago, N.Lesyshen said:

Ya I'm doing something majorly wrong and sure hope someone can see exactly what it is and if there is a cure. Whenever I watch videos on clearing hips or shifting weight or lag I can never make contact with the ball trying to replicate. Timing is so far off I give up

 

My suggestion would be to do an online video lesson with @MonteScheinblum.   After a lot of other unsuccessful attempts with other pros - he did a great job helping me with my horrible hip action.   Not saying he's the only one who can help you by any means - just that he's the one that I know and trust.

 

You can get plenty of suggestions just posting video (down the line and face on) in the instruction forum - but you can get overloaded with advice and it's not always easy to figure out who the best one to listen to might be.

 

Edited June 7, 2023 by Stuart_G

[Pepperturbo]

I am NOT a teacher.  When I watched the above vid, as your swing transitions, your upper body starts lifting, as you go into the ball.  That alone can lead to lower on the face.

 

I have a fast tempo and transition.  Over time that led me to Ventus Velo TR Blue, which has an ultra-stiff tip, stiff mid and firm handle which give me a relatively straight flight path.

 

Contact @MonteScheinblum to see if he can help.

Edited June 7, 2023 by Pepperturbo

[N.Lesyshen]

19 minutes ago, Pepperturbo said:

I am NOT a teacher.  When I watched the above vid, as your swing transitions, your upper body starts lifting, as you go into the ball.  That alone can lead to lower on the face.

 

I have a fast tempo and transition.  Over time that led me to Ventus Velo TR Blue, which has an ultra-stiff tip, stiff mid and firm handle which give me a relatively straight flight path.

 

Contact @MonteScheinblum to see if he can help.

I have 3 Hzrdus shafts all 6.0 or 6.5 and 1 Green 6.5 so super stiff which all have stiff tips and butts but I still hit low on face. I do see I lift up and maybe because I push off back foot. They always say try sitting on backswing then push on follow-through so maybe I mentally think that and try too much. I know I need to work on hips 100% and think that's one of the major things that puts everything off. I had bad left knee so that limited my turns cause ACLand MCL were tore before so think that pressure on the twist made me more hands and arms. 

[Pepperturbo]

25 minutes ago, N.Lesyshen said:

I have 3 Hzrdus shafts all 6.0 or 6.5 and 1 Green 6.5 so super stiff which all have stiff tips and butts but I still hit low on face. I do see I lift up and maybe because I push off back foot. They always say try sitting on backswing then push on follow-through so maybe I mentally think that and try too much. I know I need to work on hips 100% and think that's one of the major things that puts everything off. I had bad left knee so that limited my turns cause ACLand MCL were tore before so think that pressure on the twist made me more hands and arms. 

The optimum shaft profile can only do what your body and mechanics permits it to do.

 

Even pushing with the right, which I do (older), my upper body does NOT lift from where it was at address; it stays level so as not to influence the club head.  I tend to clear my hips too fast at times too, and cope with a tender inside left medial lateral and osteoarthritis in both knees and other joints.  During earlier years was an extreme activities and sports nut. LOL