Shaft lean vs delofting vs ball then turf vs control bottom of arc vs negative angle of attack vs descending blow vs divot in front of ball

[Chunkitgood]

One hears the words used in the post title to describe a proper golf swing (except sometimes for the driver and chipping or pitching or specialty shots).  Are they all necessary?  Any of them?  Are they all the same thing or results of the same thing?  Can any of them be produced without the entire preceding swing being sound?  Are efforts to work on producing any of them in isolation of any use?  When discussing the swing can the use of one of the words or phrases stand in as shorthand for the rest of them?

 

Personally I tend to view all of them as necessary attributes for a proper normal strike under normal conditions.  And that proper body action is a necessary if not sufficient cause of all of them, so that trying to produce any of them without first learning proper body action will merely ingrain an error (that is, if you learn to have shaft lean with your arms and hands with your body out of position, when your body is in the proper position that use of the arms and hands will be wrong).  But I am a humble student, a grasshopper, not an expert or teacher, and am trying to recognize how my preconceptions may be standing in my way.

 

Any thoughts would be appreciated.

[SNIPERBBB]

Hard to move the low point in your swing farther in front of the ball without a good swing.

[iacas]

59 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Hard to move the low point in your swing farther in front of the ball without a good swing.

 

Leave your arms up, turn hard, and chop down in front of your front foot. Horrible swing, low point two feet in front of the ball.

 

It's very easy to move the low point forward while making a horrible swing. Which is why you see so many over-the-top moves from amateurs… they're trying to hit the ball somewhat solidly, which they can't (tend to) do very well when they swing from the inside.

 

That, and the instinct to counter-act an open face.

Edited July 2, 2023 by iacas

[SNIPERBBB]

1 minute ago, iacas said:

 

Leave your arms up, turn hard, and chop down in front of your front foot. Horrible swing, low point two feet in front of the ball.

sure but you missed the ball.

[iacas]

12 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

sure but you missed the ball.

 

Okay, but…

 

14 minutes ago, iacas said:

It's very easy to move the low point forward while making a horrible swing. Which is why you see so many over-the-top moves from amateurs… they're trying to hit the ball somewhat solidly, which they can't (tend to) do very well when they swing from the inside.

 

Also, missing the ball is a pretty bad swing. 😉 

Edited July 2, 2023 by iacas

[ShortGolfer]

I recall last week in which the winner was told repeatedly by his caddie to just be an athlete.

In other words, don't think. Just do.

Studying terminology may not help your golf swing.

[SNIPERBBB]

49 minutes ago, iacas said:

 

Leave your arms up, turn hard, and chop down in front of your front foot. Horrible swing, low point two feet in front of the ball.

 

It's very easy to move the low point forward while making a horrible swing. Which is why you see so many over-the-top moves from amateurs… they're trying to hit the ball somewhat solidly, which they can't (tend to) do very well when they swing from the inside.

 

That, and the instinct to counter-act an open face.

 

Doing and trying are different things.

[iacas]

44 minutes ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Doing and trying are different things.

 

I mean, I wasn't being super serious before, but…

 

2 hours ago, SNIPERBBB said:

Hard to move the low point in your swing farther in front of the ball without a good swing.

 

It's clearly not hard, because most regular golfers do exactly this: they move their low point forward (so they have a chance of catching the ball first) by leaving their arms up and rotating out of sequence. They aren't "good swings."

 

As for the OP:

 

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

One hears the words used in the post title to describe a proper golf swing (except sometimes for the driver and chipping or pitching or specialty shots). Are they all necessary? Any of them?  Are they all the same thing or results of the same thing?

 

What's it hurt?

 

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Can any of them be produced without the entire preceding swing being sound?

 

Yes.

 

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

Are efforts to work on producing any of them in isolation of any use?

 

Occasionally, but probably less often than people think.

 

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

When discussing the swing can the use of one of the words or phrases stand in as shorthand for the rest of them?

 

Maybe, but again… why? Plus, they're different.

• Shaft lean is similar to
• delofting which is related to but quite different than
• ball then turf which isn't exactly the same as
• control bottom of arc which is influenced but not the same as
• negative angle of attack is almost the same as
• descending blow which is needed if you want
• divot in front of ball.

AoA and shaft lean are related, but they're not the same as each other. They're not synonyms. And you can obviously increase your "control of the bottom of your arc" while having a shallower OR steeper AoA, and/or moving your low point forward or back.

 

I think more often they're a "result" and not something you work on directly, but there are times you work on one of them pretty directly, too.

[Chunkitgood]

A belated thanks for the replies.

 

I tend to persist in my preconception as stated above.

 

The reason I am interested in this topic is that I (and probably it’s only me) have come to the opinion that people should not play golf on a golf course until they have a certain degrees of expertise.  The reason is that when people (adults at least) do play actual golf before they know how to play golf, they learn (in my experience) a “controlling” loft adding arm swing which they then tend to keep until…well, forever.  This was me but not just me.

 

I was interested in whether there was a possible sine qua non of a good swing that would tell a person he is ready for the course, such as one of the things in the title.

 

In retrospect I wish I had learned to get those first blades up in the air before I ever went on the course.

 

 

[virtuoso]

They’re going to scoop at it regardless of whether you quarantine them to the range, or let them play golf…..so we might as well let them play golf.