The Wipe Movement - right or wrong?

[Duffer Mark]

A recent AMG video talks about a wipe movement and how it is not what they see in good golf swings. 
 

But Tyler Ferrell reaches what he calls the wipe movement. 
 

Are Ferrell and AMG talking about the same move or different moves? Is this a desirable move to do or not?

 

AMG

 

Ferrell

 

 

[goobers80]

Depends. Is it 1 ply or 2 ?

[Three_Jack]

Tyler is wrong here. He specifically mentions they wipe across your body.. which they dont, they basically stay on your trail hip.

 

Your hips turn so they appear in 2D to be "wiping across", but they aren't. Your turn is providing that illusion.

[glk]

Tyler is clear from the start that the wipe is rotational and not linear and doing it incorrectly the body stalls and then the arms will attempt to "wipe" as AMG as discusses as incorrect.   Tyler and AMG are in agreement.

 

He also is clear on this movement in his seated release video where he demonstrates that the release is the arms extending and not moving across the body.

 

Agree that the term wipe could be changed as it can be a source of confusion in Tyler's videos.

Edited August 3, 2023 by glk

[slytown]

Yes and no. There are two types of wipe. One is the chicken wing. The other is what AMG and Tyler are referring to, which is the movement of the hands in front of the body.  

Edited August 3, 2023 by slytown

[Duffer Mark]

@glk I forgot about Tyler teaching the wipe is rotational. I've been working some on getting my trail arm in front of my body/not getting stuck on the downswing. When I do it right (I think), it works really well, but it has been difficult to ingrain into my swing. So, when I say the recent two AMG videos, I wondered about the two 'wipe' approaches in question.

[i*windows]

check out these guys, about 9 minutes 

 

[Simpsonia]

1 hour ago, glk said:

Tyler is clear from the start that the wipe is rotational and not linear and doing it incorrectly the body stalls and then the arms will attempt to "wipe" as AMG as discusses as incorrect.   Tyler and AMG are in agreement.

 

He also is clear on this movement in his seated release video where he demonstrates that the release is the arms extending and not moving across the body.

 

Agree that the term wipe could be changed as it can be a source of confusion in Tyler's videos.

 

 

As I understand it, a linear wipe move that both Tyler and AMG would disagree with, it primarily caused by shoulder movement (lead shoulder girdle retracts, trail shoulder protracts), which would move the arms and club ahead independent of the torso rotation (thus leading to stalling). Keeping the wipe movement rotational is another way of saying to keep the shoulders passive or quiet while you rotate. Keeping the shoulders quiet from the top of the backswing is also another way of stating the old adage of keeping your shoulders closed (back to the target) as long as possible into the downswing. 

[Hilts1969]

 

[Zitlow]

The downswing is so quick there is no way to micro manage it. Trying to make a change once it starts would be like trying to grab a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun. 

 

 

[iacas]

5 hours ago, Zitlow said:

The downswing is so quick there is no way to micro manage it. Trying to make a change once it starts would be like trying to grab a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun. 

 

This is inaccurate. You can "make a change" during the early part of the downswing. You have to start them by about P5, but pretending that everything after P4 is pre-determined is silly.

[RoyalTroon]

1 hour ago, iacas said:

This is inaccurate. You can "make a change" during the early part of the downswing. 

 

Such as?

 

1 hour ago, iacas said:

 You have to start them by about P5, but pretending that everything after P4 is pre-determined is silly.

 

"about P5" seems a little vague, where is "about" located within our 3D space to swing. 

Edited August 3, 2023 by BALLYBUNION

[Hilts1969]

6 hours ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

Such as?

 

 

"about P5" seems a little vague, where is "about" located within our 3D space to swing. 

It's not vague at all unless you think a move has to happen exactly say 4.2

 

No No no said the coach i said you do it at 4.2 not 4.1. Jeez man that's why its gone in the car park:-)

[blades_are_life]

I personally find the wipe visualization technique works a hell of a lot better for tennis than it does for golf.

[johnrobison]

18 hours ago, Zitlow said:

The downswing is so quick there is no way to micro manage it. Trying to make a change once it starts would be like trying to grab a bullet leaving the barrel of a gun. 

 

 

Nonsense. You keep saying this but it conflates when one decides to do something with the time the action is actually performed. And, as I've responded in the past, I can absolutely change my downswing motion from one swing to the next.

[Zitlow]

1 hour ago, johnrobison said:

Nonsense. You keep saying this but it conflates when one decides to do something with the time the action is actually performed. And, as I've responded in the past, I can absolutely change my downswing motion from one swing to the next.

 

Let me ask you this, how many things can you think about in a second? How about a quarter of a second? 

 

I'm saying the downswing if done correctly should be a reflexive action, once it's triggered it's over in a flash. It's so quick all you can do is go along for the ride. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

21 minutes ago, Zitlow said:

 

Let me ask you this, how many things can you think about in a second? How about a quarter of a second? 

 

I'm saying the downswing if done correctly should be a reflexive action, once it's triggered it's over in a flash. It's so quick all you can do is go along for the ride. 

Don't think your views are that conflicting... seems that you are both saying that your intent as to be prior or at the latest once the downswing start, since our reaction time from intent to action is about as long as the downswing itself... unless I'm misunderstanding what you're both saying

[RoyalTroon]

4 hours ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Don't think your views are that conflicting... seems that you are both saying that your intent as to be prior or at the latest once the downswing start, since our reaction time from intent to action is about as long as the downswing itself... unless I'm misunderstanding what you're both saying

 

The intent is from the bag forward.   Varry you should know this, your Harry cousin was all over it.  Talking about the master teacher, a cleek, and the rest of the bag, the gist of what he said was: 

 

It is a club with which you must hit unfalteringly.  That, indeed, is true of any implement in the golfer's kit, for to try and regulate the strength of the shot at the instant of impact is nearly sure to be fatal.  No matter what club you are using, once you have reached the stage when you feel that the up-swing should stop and have started to come down, then you have laid the foundation of the shot for better or for worse, and you must go through with it; the pace of the club-head increasing at it nears the ball so that you are ever conscious that it is leading- that it is having its own way- and that  you are merely guiding it, content to let it hit the ball with all the vim that it has gathered during the down-swing.   1922   

 

 

[PracticeSwinger]

6 minutes ago, BALLYBUNION said:

 

The intent is from the bag forward.   Varry you should know this, your Harry cousin was all over it.  Talking about the master teacher, a cleek, and the rest of the bag, the gist of what he said was: 

 

It is a club with which you must hit unfalteringly.  That, indeed, is true of any implement in the golfer's kit, for to try and regulate the strength of the shot at the instant of impact is nearly sure to be fatal.  No matter what club you are using, once you have reached the stage when you feel that the up-swing should stop and have started to come down, then you have laid the foundation of the shot for better or for worse, and you must go through with it; the pace of the club-head increasing at it nears the ball so that you are ever conscious that it is leading- that it is having its own way- and that  you are merely guiding it, content to let it hit the ball with all the vim that it has gathered during the down-swing.   1922   

 

 

Very good, well yeah, Harry was the better player in our family

[johnrobison]

7 hours ago, Zitlow said:

 

Let me ask you this, how many things can you think about in a second? How about a quarter of a second? 

 

I'm saying the downswing if done correctly should be a reflexive action, once it's triggered it's over in a flash. It's so quick all you can do is go along for the ride. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don't go along for the ride. I'm not the passenger - I'm the driver.

[iacas]

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

Let me ask you this, how many things can you think about in a second? How about a quarter of a second?

 

> 0.

 

I teach a lot of backswing stuff (and setup stuff) to people, but I teach more than zero "downswing" stuff to people. Your left knee flexes a little during the early part of the downswing (for a righty), then extends. That's one thing people can do during the downswing. The lead wrist can do what I call "twist and roll" (palmar flexion is the twist). That's one thing you can do on the downswing. There are plenty more.

 

8 hours ago, Zitlow said:

I'm saying the downswing if done correctly should be a reflexive action, once it's triggered it's over in a flash. It's so quick all you can do is go along for the ride.

 

What is "if done correctly"? I once had to play a tournament holding off the face so it felt like it was 45° open at impact. That was my swing thought or feel on EVERY full swing downswing. I hit 14 GIR. Was it perfect? No, probably not. But it was better than if I just tried to be a passenger and "let it happen" reflexively.

 

I'm with @johnrobison: I'm driving, not a passenger.

[MPStrat]

Some of these backswing, transition downswing debates are people saying similar things but having a different sense of when those things are happening. 

[ANimz]

I found that I was doing some of the arm swing myths they spoke about in that video.  I have been working on this since the video came out, and I am just starting to get used to in.  I was hooking a lot early, but recently (past 2 rounds) found a feel of unbending the trail arm in transition vs the thought of pulling the club away from my body.  It has worked wonders. 

 

The first round with the unbending thought, I shot 1 over par through 9.  I couldn't finish the round because my son was with me and was getting bored.  I told my wife....I have to go again tomorrow(3rd day in a row 😂).  She was understanding about it.  I played a much more difficult course the next day, and shot 81...decent for me.  I have shot better, but I thought the swing was a lot better.  I just made some aggressive shots, and was getting used to more distance as my strike was more centered.