Say the body was a robot and pivoted the same way each swing...

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, teddyironboy said:

 

Where are you recommending to hesitate rotation early? You mean like focusing on the weight shift to the front foot first before rotating the hips? Kind of like the feel when lifting the left heel and stomping it down in transition?

During the second half of the transition, as you are using the right elbow to take the slack out, you will fall back to the left with no rotation of the pelvis. Left shoulder will stay down and pressure moves to the ball of the left foot. Once that left foot gets pressured up and the slack is out and your pelvis has been displaced left a few inches, then you have the green light to rotate your torso has hard as you can. Pressure will start moving aggressively into the left heel. If you set the stage that way, you will easily have time to get the body very open by impact.

 

Please note, if you start rotation too early, you will spin your left hip behind you, and because you don’t have joints aligned to support rotation, your left arm will fly off your chest too soon anyway as you try to jam the handle forward. Hands will be going forward while pelvis and body cg are going backwards, thus the disconnection. You can kinda make this work if you have a very strong left hand grip….but not the ideal biomechanical scenario.

 

The method: during the tranny, both femurs stay in internal rotation; the thighs are both squeezing the pelvis as you fall back to the left. Left leg only goes external after ball of left foot is pressured up.

 

 Super advanced: at the beginning of the fall back, the left hip tries to back up even farther around the right hip. This is the final intent that keeps the hip joints hyper wound at zero forward rotation. The pelvis is now ready for hyper unwind once the sole of the left foot has enough friction from downward pressure to support the upstairs rotation without slipping or spinning.

Edited August 10, 2023 by virtuoso

[fjk]

Since nobody seems to be asnwering you - the answer is yes - if your body were literally a robot then the hands/arms etc. if passive would react the same way.

 

But isnt that obvious? What reason would they have to react differently if all variables are kept constant.

 

But what's the utility of the question being asked...

 

Edited August 10, 2023 by fjk

[teddyironboy]

48 minutes ago, fjk said:

Since nobody seems to be asnwering you - the answer is yes - if your body were literally a robot then the hands/arms etc. if passive would react the same way.

 

But isnt that obvious? What reason would they have to react differently if all variables are kept constant.

 

But what's the utility of the question being asked...

 

 

If the pivot can get the arms in a good position by P5, it should be a much more consistent swing than one that requires an active lowering or roll of the arms. Taking out variables.

[fjk]

14 minutes ago, teddyironboy said:

 

If the pivot can get the arms in a good position by P5, it should be a much more consistent swing than one that requires an active lowering or roll of the arms. Taking out variables.

The pivot supports what the arms/hands are doing to the club. Focusing on the pivot works for some people but it’s suboptimal for most. 
 

you need to pivot to throw a ball well but you don’t just try to pivot to throw a ball. 
 

holding onto the club and trying to pivot can hit a ball, but it’s never going to do much or have a very high ceiling. 
 

some days I work on pivot and some days work on hands and arms. Feels change and evolve. It ALL matters. Can’t try to eliminate one and use the other. 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, teddyironboy said:

 

If the pivot can get the arms in a good position by P5, it should be a much more consistent swing than one that requires an active lowering or roll of the arms. Taking out variables.

The arms are going to drop and roll no matter what. You don't want dead arms; you want good synchronization.

[virtuoso]

Like this...Hogan Tranny Magic:

 

[PracticeSwinger]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

Like this...Hogan Tranny Magic:

 

Out of left field question on lead foot pressure. We always read that amateurs are late compared to pros and the intent on getting to the lead side has to come as early as P2. We can see Hogan foot stomping the ground getting to the top, would this be considered late (by todays standard)? Or is it that your early intent has to be on displacing your pelvis (recentering, unweighting) towards the target and pressuring the ground only happens at the tranny ?

[Soloman1]

It can be distilled down sequencing, whether a robot or a human.

 

The robot depends on what kind of person is being modeled. What strengths and weaknesses in legs, pelvis, back, arms, hands, body section measurements, etc.

 

There is a flaw in all 3D systems in measuring COM movements. They are all based on skeletal COM and not on actual body COM.

 

People have a variety of body mass for different segments, e.g., upper torso, arms, stomach, pelvis area , legs, etc.

 

So each body type needs different forces to move the individual mass of the segments. Muscle groups may not be optimum for each.

 

Standard models only work with standard people. And that is why golf is so hard to teach well.

 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Varry_Hardon said:

Out of left field question on lead foot pressure. We always read that amateurs are late compared to pros and the intent on getting to the lead side has to come as early as P2. We can see Hogan foot stomping the ground getting to the top, would this be considered late (by todays standard)? Or is it that your early intent has to be on displacing your pelvis (recentering, unweighting) towards the target and pressuring the ground only happens at the tranny ?

I would say Mr H is starting the counterfall around P3 ish. He has set the right leg and hip up to run out of joint range of motion and that is what triggers the fall back. At the beginning of the fall he holds internal rotation of the left hip and still tries to wind the right hip even more around the back of the left hip, which ends up actually being zero rotation...so full wind maintained as left foot pressure builds up. And then rotation starts setting in very fast.

[Nels55]

During my last long set of lessons my instructor was always working to help me to drive the swing with my body.  I would get something working and I would be swinging my 6 iron at 75 mph on flightscope or something like that and then I would do an arm swing and hit 85 mph hour or more no sweat.  My instructor would say that the body swing is more consistent and that the speed would pick up once I learned it.  So, I sorta know how to make a body driven swing and also an arm driven swing.  To this day the arm swing is always faster at least until my arms get tired and I get really slow LOL.  

 

I can make the arm swing on the course and play pretty well until there is any pressure and then I will hit random massive hooks along with some complete miss-hits that will cause me to lose a lot of golf balls and and lose whatever competition I am playing in.  The body driven sort of swing is better under pressure so that is what I work on most of the time.

 

The reason I am bringing this up is that it seems to me that the pro swing that AMG teaches and possibly Monte also is one where the arms get moving early and then the pivot takes the club through the hitting area until the point where the arms release and go past the body.  Is that about right?  Or completely wrong?   

[virtuoso]

10 minutes ago, Nels55 said:

During my last long set of lessons my instructor was always working to help me to drive the swing with my body.  I would get something working and I would be swinging my 6 iron at 75 mph on flightscope or something like that and then I would do an arm swing and hit 85 mph hour or more no sweat.  My instructor would say that the body swing is more consistent and that the speed would pick up once I learned it.  So, I sorta know how to make a body driven swing and also an arm driven swing.  To this day the arm swing is always faster at least until my arms get tired and I get really slow LOL.  

 

I can make the arm swing on the course and play pretty well until there is any pressure and then I will hit random massive hooks along with some complete miss-hits that will cause me to lose a lot of golf balls and and lose whatever competition I am playing in.  The body driven sort of swing is better under pressure so that is what I work on most of the time.

 

The reason I am bringing this up is that it seems to me that the pro swing that AMG teaches and possibly Monte also is one where the arms get moving early and then the pivot takes the club through the hitting area until the point where the arms release and go past the body.  Is that about right?  Or completely wrong?   

The arm swing essentially travels up the right side of the torso, then down the right side of the torso, then up the left side of the torso. It looks like a v shaped motion. The bottom of the V is just to the right of the belly button, which is roughly impact and just past. At that bottom of the V is it where the arms will feel like they are the most synchronized with the rotation of the pivot. That would align with what you said above.

[Chunkitgood]

There was some doubt but apparently experiment has demonstrated that quantum uncertainty applies on the macro as well as the micro,  so there is a very slight chance that a different cause (movement of the body) on this level will produce a difference effect (movement of the arms).  Slight meaning on a level never yet observed in the history of the universe.

 

You have to remember that what you would have is the club head (assuming your robot was holding a club) and the body rotating around each other, so that the motion of the body would be affected by the force exerted by the club, and the club tends to rotate itself as force is applied to it, so what you would get with passive arms would not be what you wanted.  Just for example, so called centrifugal force tends to straighten the angle between the arms and the club.  This needs to be accounted for so that at impact you get “shaft lean” not just in the direction of the target but in the direction of the golfer as well.

 

I think the guys who wrote the book How to Swing Like a Pro said it best (paraphrasing):

 

He who teaches a swing in which the arms lead is doing a great disservice to his students.

 

 

[Nels55]

2 hours ago, Chunkitgood said:

I think the guys who wrote the book How to Swing Like a Pro said it best (paraphrasing):

 

He who teaches a swing in which the arms lead is doing a great disservice to his students.

 

 

Manuel de la Torre did pretty well teaching arms leading. 

 

There is no one correct swing method that works for everyone.  For that matter there is no one swing focus that works best for everyone.  There is a best way to swing for each golfer and that way may be wildly different from another gofers best way.  All of the genius gurus on youtube who teach a fixed method are correct or close enough for some percentage of students but miss the boat entirely for others.  I am quite certain of this...

Edited August 13, 2023 by Nels55
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