Shoulder tilt. Am I on to Something?

[Ethan DelGrosso]

Been struggling a ton lately. This past year I would take the club away massively inside and get my arms way across the body leading to inconsistency. Ive tried to learn to work the hands more up in front of the body but struggle a ton with cupping and overall uncomfortable feelings. Its very hard for me to start the backswing and I’ve tried to use the Pro Sender but I don’t know how much it really works or helps. In reviewing my latest session I noticed a substantial amount of shoulder tilt in comparison to my “blueprint” Adam Scott. Probably not the same club but at left arm parallel theres 14 degrees difference in shoulder plane. I feel like this could be one of those “fix this to fix that“ type things. I included picture of left arm parallel in both backswing and downswing of Adam and I as well as a video of my swing.

Edited March 18 by Ethan DelGrosso

[Ethan DelGrosso]

1 minute ago, stevesteven1 said:

I’ve found the more shoulder tilt the more you will swing upright as opposed to sucking it inside. Your first photo looks fine surely if you flattened your shoulders it would be the fault you are trying to avoid?

The club you are using will make a big difference to the angle you are measuring by the way 

I agree with you on the tilt making the swing more upright. My fear is that I’m still not showing good arm mechanics just tilting so much it looks like the club is at a good angle but then I cant rotating well and come over the top.

[virtuoso]

Alex Noren drill.......1000 times.

Edited March 18 by virtuoso

[MonteScheinblum]

3 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Alex Noren drill.......1000 times.

lol, I was about to say the same thing.

 

[Ethan DelGrosso]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

Alex Noren drill.......1000 times.

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Alex Noren the feel vs reel king. Is there a specific drill you’re referencing lol?

[virtuoso]

Just now, MonteScheinblum said:

lol, I was about to say the same thing.

 

he is going to think we are kidding...we are serious as a heart attack.

[Ethan DelGrosso]

1 minute ago, virtuoso said:

he is going to think we are kidding...we are serious as a heart attack.

Trust me I’m familiar with the members much smarter than me. Your words are as good as gold. Could you link the specific drill?.

[virtuoso]

4 minutes ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

Correct me if I’m wrong but isn’t Alex Noren the feel vs reel king. Is there a specific drill you’re referencing lol?

[LCP]

Notice that you both have your shoulders tilted at an angle that lets you hit the ball.  Scott appears to be standing 4-5 inches further away from the ball than you. If that's the case, unless his club is a lot shorter, he's going to have to swing flatter than you, or he's going to miss the ball.  If you change your shoulder angle, what else do you have to change to still be able to hit the ball?  I'm sure mine's different for every club, because they have different lengths, just like length to the ball, and the overall height of my stance is different depending on the club.

[GungHoGolf]

38 minutes ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

Trust me I’m familiar with the members much smarter than me. Your words are as good as gold. Could you link the specific drill?.

A couple of in-depth reviews of his drill/pre-shot routine:

 

 

 

 

[Jeselnik]

Yes you are on to something.

 

 

JNIK

[Ethan DelGrosso]

2 hours ago, Jeselnik said:

Yes you are on to something.

 

 

JNIK

I haven’t gotten to take a full swing yet but feeling a flatter rotation makes my back swing so much easier and cleaner. Then the Alex Noren drill should help on the downswing. Gonna give it all a shot today.

[Ethan DelGrosso]

19 hours ago, virtuoso said:

Alex Noren drill.......1000 times.

Got to work the drill a bit today. Definitely seems like it’ll help but will need to work it for a little. I included a video of me doing the drill and also two swings from today. One with pro sender and one without. 

[virtuoso]

3 hours ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

Got to work the drill a bit today. Definitely seems like it’ll help but will need to work it for a little. I included a video of me doing the drill and also two swings from today. One with pro sender and one without. 

IMG_0463.MOV IMG_0464.MOV FullSizeRender.MOV

You're doing the drill perfectly, but then you go full speed on the swing and the feel vanishes. Hit little 1/2 shots really slow trying to hit the ball with the exact same feel as the drill. Hit an 8 iron 100 yards and try to make P6 look like the drill position. You will drop kick quite a few but get the timing of it. At impact, you will feel like your chest is only 2 feet off the mat.

Edited March 19 by virtuoso

[virtuoso]

We want you here at P7.5:

 

Not here:

[Ethan DelGrosso]

29 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

You're doing the drill perfectly, but then you go full speed on the swing and the feel vanishes. Hit little 1/2 shots really slow trying to hit the ball with the exact same feel as the drill. Hit an 8 iron 100 yards and try to make P6 look like the drill position. You will drop kick quite a few but get the timing of it. At impact, you will feel like your chest is only 2 feet off the mat.

That makes perfect sense I find my absolute worst characteristic in golf is I try to do a slow swing and end up changing my mind at the top and going full speed. I really appreciate you letting me know about the drop kicks too. I remember having my first lesson last year and leaving the face wide open when I changed set up but I would’ve just given up on my own if the coach didn’t tell me that was perfectly normal. 

[virtuoso]

15 minutes ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

That makes perfect sense I find my absolute worst characteristic in golf is I try to do a slow swing and end up changing my mind at the top and going full speed. I really appreciate you letting me know about the drop kicks too. I remember having my first lesson last year and leaving the face wide open when I changed set up but I would’ve just given up on my own if the coach didn’t tell me that was perfectly normal. 

Yeah, you throw the club out to widen the radius so you can reach the ball while you stay closed with the shoulders and stand up.....so....when you stay down in your angles longer, you will then want to unhinge the club into the mat. The Noren drill works to pull those things together--open shoulders, as you stay down, butt back, club feels more hinged and dragged behind you.

Edited March 19 by virtuoso

[Ethan DelGrosso]

2 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

Yeah, you throw the club out to widen the radius so you can reach the ball while you stay closed with the shoulders and stand up.....so....when you stay down in your angles longer, you will then want to unhinge the club into the mat. The Noren drill works to pull those things together--open shoulders, as you stay down, butt back, club feels more hinged and dragged behind you.

That definitely tracks with some of my bad feels. I don’t even hit past 3 iron anymore (or ever if I’m not playing really well) and I always wonder how I can swing a driver the same lengths as much shorter guys and need to stand up to not hit the ground. Can’t wait to grind this drill more. Thanks!

[virtuoso]

19 minutes ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

That makes perfect sense I find my absolute worst characteristic in golf is I try to do a slow swing and end up changing my mind at the top and going full speed. I really appreciate you letting me know about the drop kicks too. I remember having my first lesson last year and leaving the face wide open when I changed set up but I would’ve just given up on my own if the coach didn’t tell me that was perfectly normal. 

Look at Adam Scott's knee flex.......maintained...yours is gone.

[virtuoso]

1 minute ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

That definitely tracks with some of my bad feels. I don’t even hit past 3 iron anymore (or ever if I’m not playing really well) and I always wonder how I can swing a driver the same lengths as much shorter guys and need to stand up to not hit the ground. Can’t wait to grind this drill more. Thanks!

As a cheat on the drill, choke up to the steel and hover the club a foot above the ball. Then do a slow swing where you have to dive into Noren land to make contact. Then you don't have to sit into the angles and hold the club back and hinged at the same time.

[Ethan DelGrosso]

6 minutes ago, virtuoso said:

As a cheat on the drill, choke up to the steel and hover the club a foot above the ball. Then do a slow swing where you have to dive into Noren land to make contact. Then you don't have to sit into the angles and hold the club back and hinged at the same time.

I was just thinking about that one from a youtube video I watched a while ago. Glad you think it will help. 

[virtuoso]

18 hours ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

I was just thinking about that one from a youtube video I watched a while ago. Glad you think it will help. 

 

[CSagan]

1 hour ago, virtuoso said:

 

 

You reminded me of this scene in the beginning there lol

 

 

Edited March 20 by CSagan

[virtuoso]

3 minutes ago, CSagan said:

 

You reminded me of this scene in the beginning there lol

 

 

....and that's how my clients look and react when I'm working with them.

[Daniel Eason]

If you have trouble starting the swing do some Dr Kwon related protocol, you're probably finding your arm biased in the downswing. 

 

 

[Valtiel]

21 hours ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

That makes perfect sense I find my absolute worst characteristic in golf is I try to do a slow swing and end up changing my mind at the top and going full speed.

This is directly tied to what we discussed in your previous thread about your habitual upper body over-swinging. You get yourself into a position where you *can't* get back down in time, and you're still doing it here:

 

Drill swing position on the left vs. your "real" swing on the right, and look at how far away your right arm/elbow has traveled. I can also tell you're again *well* beyond 90* of shoulder rotation. You can't get to the ball in sequence from here without big compensations, period. If you keep swinging this long you will keep having the same problems and you'll never be able to perform what @virtuoso is suggesting. And I want to emphasize:
 

Quote

...end up changing my mind at the top and going full speed.

This isn't what is happening. You aren't changing your mind, your mind is automatically reacting to the scenario you've setup and going "right, here is what needs to happen now if we want to hit that thing on the ground" and you are forced to go "full speed" because your hands and arms are jumping state lines and you couldn't make impact if you didn't, especially given what you actually do in transition:



Scheffler gets into a similar "flying right elbow" position at the top, but look at the drastic difference in what his hands and arms do when I sync your hip rotations. He is rapidly getting his hands and arms back out in front to stay in sequence with his lower body, and you're actively resisting that by leaving them up seemingly as long as possible, which leads to this:



Stall + jump to allow your arms to catch up. This is the same basic pattern as every video you shared from your previous thread and it will remain the same pattern until you stop overswinging and/or you start accelerating your hands WAY earlier in transition.

@virtuoso Not to intentionally contradict what you're trying to get across here, but at 5:30 onwards in your video you mention how his "subconscious will be more comfortable settling back into these angles" if he chokes up to artificially shorten the overall arc of the swing. I'd argue that based on previous content and discussion that the shortening of the overall arc might need to be far more consciously forced here because even when prompted and highlighted that it's a problem, it hasn't gotten any shorter. Not sure how you feel about that, but I think we can agree that the massive width/length of the backswing + leaving the arms up high and stuck is the main problem here, i'm just concerned that anything intended to automatically stop this without conscious effort....won't. 😅

Edited March 20 by Valtiel

[Ethan DelGrosso]

3 hours ago, virtuoso said:

 

I’ve watched videos and thought “wow this was made for me” but a video actually being made for me is incredible. Thank you so much that is extremely helpful. 

[Ethan DelGrosso]

36 minutes ago, Valtiel said:

This is directly tied to what we discussed in your previous thread about your habitual upper body over-swinging. You get yourself into a position where you *can't* get back down in time, and you're still doing it here:

 

Drill swing position on the left vs. your "real" swing on the right, and look at how far away your right arm/elbow has traveled. I can also tell you're again *well* beyond 90* of shoulder rotation. You can't get to the ball in sequence from here without big compensations, period. If you keep swinging this long you will keep having the same problems and you'll never be able to perform what @virtuoso is suggesting. And I want to emphasize:
 

This isn't what is happening. You aren't changing your mind, your mind is automatically reacting to the scenario you've setup and going "right, here is what needs to happen now if we want to hit that thing on the ground" and you are forced to go "full speed" because your hands and arms are jumping state lines and you couldn't make impact if you didn't, especially given what you actually do in transition:



Scheffler gets into a similar "flying right elbow" position at the top, but look at the drastic difference in what his hands and arms do when I sync your hip rotations. He is rapidly getting his hands and arms back out in front to stay in sequence with his lower body, and you're actively resisting that by leaving them up seemingly as long as possible, which leads to this:



Stall + jump to allow your arms to catch up. This is the same basic pattern as every video you shared from your previous thread and it will remain the same pattern until you stop overswinging and/or you start accelerating your hands WAY earlier in transition.

@virtuoso Not to intentionally contradict what you're trying to get across here, but at 5:30 onwards in your video you mention how his "subconscious will be more comfortable settling back into these angles" if he chokes up to artificially shorten the overall arc of the swing. I'd argue that based on previous content and discussion that the shortening of the overall arc might need to be far more consciously forced here because even when prompted and highlighted that it's a problem, it hasn't gotten any shorter. Not sure how you feel about that, but I think we can agree that the massive width/length of the backswing + leaving the arms up high and stuck is the main problem here, i'm just concerned that anything intended to automatically stop this without conscious effort....won't. 😅

I definitely thought about that upon seeing the choking down drill but my understanding was that using the pro sender might actually be useful as I can force my self to stay on it the whole way to the ball. I actually tried the drill today but didn’t have time to film and it seemed to help well as long as I was aware of holding the angle. 
 

As for the over-swing I am definitely still aware of the issue and working on some feels/ fixes for when I do these swings to keep the arms from going to far. 

[Valtiel]

10 minutes ago, Ethan DelGrosso said:

I definitely thought about that upon seeing the choking down drill but my understanding was that using the pro sender might actually be useful as I can force my self to stay on it the whole way to the ball. I actually tried the drill today but didn’t have time to film and it seemed to help well as long as I was aware of holding the angle. 
 

As for the over-swing I am definitely still aware of the issue and working on some feels/ fixes for when I do these swings to keep the arms from going to far. 

Keeping yourself "on it" is no guarantee that anything will arrive in time though, as you can see given that the training aid did nothing to correct your sequence. 

Regarding the second sentence, consider what you actually mean when you say "working on some feels/fixes". All you need to do here is commit to making a smaller backswing by not rotating so far and extending your arms so high/away from your body, there is no feel or fix for this, you just do it and check on video if your feel and real lineup and it's *actually* shorter. I want to encourage this approach because there is a good chance what you mean by "feels/fixes" is that you're looking for something to create the change for you and/or something that makes it feel right/correct, and this is what gets you down bad rabbit holes. Changing movement patterns almost never feels comfortable initially and there are no shortcuts. Putting a training aid between your arms and then making the same swing you made before isn't going to improve anything, and in this case it isn't even a training aid designed to address your problem directly anyway. 

[virtuoso]

1 hour ago, Valtiel said:

@virtuoso Not to intentionally contradict what you're trying to get across here, but at 5:30 onwards in your video you mention how his "subconscious will be more comfortable settling back into these angles" if he chokes up to artificially shorten the overall arc of the swing. I'd argue that based on previous content and discussion that the shortening of the overall arc might need to be far more consciously forced here because even when prompted and highlighted that it's a problem, it hasn't gotten any shorter. Not sure how you feel about that, but I think we can agree that the massive width/length of the backswing + leaving the arms up high and stuck is the main problem here, i'm just concerned that anything intended to automatically stop this without conscious effort....won't. 😅

I got no issues with that. Anything in the tranny that would advance the the chest and arms down sooner (relative to he hip spin) would help him do the stuff I mentioned.