Been trying to switch to the rotary action...

[Diesel]

Here's a few swing vids...

just looking for advice from Slice and others of his school of thought...

SW

SW

8I

8I

Driver

Driver

I really hate my driver swing... it;s like i'm not getting through the ball at all... it looks like i'm stuck behind it... even though the 2 shots here were actually nice ball flights, and decent distances...

any tips for practicing...?

I can also see i really need to work on my alignment... even with my sticks laid down i still setup to my target somewhat closed... IDIOT...! :)

[Diesel]

not sure what's up with the vids, they seem to be still being finalized... dunno...

[dfw1500]

Your problem starts in the 1st move where you fan the club face imediately open and have the club working to the outside losing all of your connection with the arms from the body this is in part due to your forward press and the loss of angle in you left wrist.....on the way down you are firing your lower body which is then causing you to flip the wrists at the last moment and you end up with an incomplete finish....it looks like you are stuck behind it with the driver bcause the lower body has slid so far out ahead of the shot the head is out too far back and underneath the shot and you cannot relesae the club effectively.

 

Work on your 1st move back and try to maintain the angle formed in the left wrist at address you can place a block of wood behind the club head and feel that the body starts the turn away and that the clubhead is lagging behind the hands and that the angle in the left wrist increases......I would hit balls with your feet together to help rid yourself of the leg drive and get the feeling of rotating the torso coming through as the butt of the club goes low and left......I would also hit balls with a coat hanger attatched to a rod put this in the ground and have it sit on your left hip now hit balls with ot there concentrating on keeping the left hip touching it into the backswing and feeling the left lat stretch then turn through the shot with the hip working around the hanger and not into it.

 

Hope this helps.

 

Cheers Dan

[chris87]

driver swing looks like a flip with the left wrist breaking down. Left wrist looks better with the irons. I see a big stall in the downswing. You will never be able to have a good rotary swing if you stall your body and throw your arms out like you are doing. Proof of this is in the driver swing from behind; At impact your shoulders are not open at all. At impact you are standing straight up and have lost all of your spine angle. I think it is also possible that your right arm straightens too soon which induces a flip and the need to lose your spine angle.

[UTGolf73]

I'm doing the exact same thing on my first move. Is it correct that the club face should travel down the target line for the first few feet in the back swing?

[cmb71]

Observations only... I notice things in your setup and posture from the down the line views... it appears your weight is favoring your heels rather than the balls of your feet, and that you are standing a bit too far away from the ball. In order to compress the ball, you have to be more on top of it. There appears to be a significant gap between the butt end of the club and your thighs at address, especially with the SW and 8I (although it is a bit hard to tell from the camera angle because it appears you are setup a bit closed, as you say.) It is also hard to tell, but is your right leg maintaining its flex on the backswing? Overall, it appear the hands and arms are controlling the swing (i.e. a lot of manipulation.) I would advise standing a little closer to the ball and bend from the hips trying to achieve a slightly more athletic position. And as others have said, rotate through the ball, don't stall. Take it all with a grain of salt because hey, what do I know?

[PurePursuit]

dfw gave some good advice...I think thats whats causing you to be so flat and to roll the wrists. It doesn't look like you ever fully set the club (could be because your trying to maintain a perfectly flat left wrist). Do the towel/nerf ball slices under the armpit dril, coupled with a ton of 9/3's where you really feel you release the club merely by pulling the butt end down with the left side. Its going to feel so uncomfortable, stick with it though.

[dfvxc]

the takeaway is not too flat, actually it's too upright for a rotational swing imo. Maybe it's the cam angles tho.

I second dfw1500's comment about too outside takeaway, very important.

 

The downswing is 2 plane and not 1 plane/ rotational. You lose the spine tilt and the plane is too upright if a rotational swing is the goal.

[dfw1500]

the takeaway is DEFINATELY not too UPRIGHT it is DEFINATELY too shallow but with an outside disconnected 1st move in the swing......if it were to be too steep the club would be way above the right forearm in the DTL view and a line drawn from the butt of the club would be nearer to the toe line.....as it is the club is disconnected in the 1st move overly rotated with the wrists which sees the club go way under and behind the elbow with the clubface open and then the club is taken too the top.....due to this over rotation of the club and the forearms the club has to be shallowed by the driving of the legs and the club has to be released via a flip or the clubface would be so far open it would result in huge pushes.

 

The idea of a glove under the left armpit is a great one to aid the connection but the angle in the left wrist along with this staying connected is the key as the hands fan the club and the arm rotates along with this and becomes disconnected.....I would also lie an old box or shaft along the toe of the club and have you concentrate on the toe of the club staying along the box as the butt of the club works closer to you and you miantain the angle in the left wrist (this will feel like you are increasing it) and also allow the left armpit to stay connected and the club can be set much easier and more naturally.

 

From here you can let it all go left with the body rotation.

 

Cheers Dan

[dfvxc]

Hmm, I think I might be confused about the definition of takeaway.

Is it just the early stages of the backswing? I think I erroneous*ly*(edit) equated takeaway and backswing.

What I meant to say about too being upright is at the late stage of the backswing. But again, I'm not experienced watching at an off-angle.

[Diesel]

lots of info in there for me to assimilate...

 

i know i have alot of work to do to make this change, coming from a 2 plane swing... i've always had an arms release, that's what i was taught... i guess it's a good thing i've only been playing for 2 years, so the changes will not be as hard as opposed to having been playing for a much longer time...

 

i'm just not sure what the first move is in the takeaway then... is it simply a turn of the body...? at some point don't the arms have to do their thing on the backswing...? i wish someone had some screenshots with the positions we are trying to acheive for this type of swing...

[cmb71]

My first move thoughts might be different than some, but here's what I concentrate on... I have a very strong left hand grip with a "long thumb" so I have to consciously think of rotating my left forearm slightly and hinging my right wrist to open the face just a little while simultaneously rotating my upperbody. I "set" the club very early in the backswing, but careful not to get the club behind me... have to keep it in front of my body. I think of it as trying to point the toe of the club up to the sky, being careful not to overdo it. If I don't have this forearm rotation thought, I end up a little shut at the top. For me after I get into this position it's all about rotating the upperbody with no thought about the hands and arms after that point at all. If I achieve this position early in the backswing, then it's just about rotating back, pulling the butt end of the club, and rotating through to the left.

[Diesel]

i do understand the concept of not manipulating the hands during the downswing, and let the body release the club left, but what's the concept of getting your hands and arms to the top of the swing...

 

you say that you want to keep the club in front of your body, but i'm not sure exactly what you mean by that...

[juansky]

One thing I noticed that was missing was the tilt of the upper body away from the target. When you tilt properly your shoulders are closed to the target slightly. One other thing you should do is to pull down with the arms into the impact zone.....it will feel as if you're going to slice the ball but the trunk rotation will square the club for you and it will feel very solid. :) Just trust the feel. :black eye:

[Diesel]

are you referring to all shots with the tilt...?

 

i was under the assumption that the spin tilt should be vertical for wedges and shorter irons and increase the tilt as the clubs got longer... i know i conciously tilt to the right with my driver setup, with the weight favoring my right side...

 

wedges i have been setting up with my weight favoring the left side, but then have to force myself to keep my spine tilt vertical or i end up tilting towards the target, which is not a good thing...

[dfvxc]

I've pondered that as well, and with some experimentation + some theory from posters, the best guidline for me (for the later stage of the backswing) is a backswing where the shaft plane is always perpendicular (or close to) to spine, with minimal shift of this plane. It's prbly best to rehearse in front of a mirror so u get instant feedback.

 

there are many swings on youtube to look at, hogan, chad campbell, etc., e.g.:http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YJHRn9W6FQM&fmt=18

 

Also, you must make your initial takeaway to the inside. Follow dfw1500's post. Personally I just make sure I don't move my hands parallel to the target line, but takes it inside. For instance Hogan.

[cmb71]

For me, it's all about being in the right position when the club is parallel to the ground on the takeaway. The club shaft should be close to parallel to the intended target line when the hands are at hip height, in my case the clubhead appears to be very slightly outside the line my hands are on in the down the line view. If I am in the proper posture at the start (bent from the hips, arms hanging from my shoulders) and get into the position I described, it's all about continuing to rotate the upper body into the inside of my right thigh, keeping the flex in my right knee. The arms and hands end up in the proper position almost by default. When I talk about keeping my arms in front of me (as in not trapped behind me), it could also be described as being in sync with my rotation, staying connected... not separating. My right elbow never gets trapped. Does this help explain?

 

By the way, I am not trying to thread jack here... I respect everyone's views here, but if my comments are not welcomed, let me know... I'll mind my own business and go back to observing only. Peace dudes!

[Diesel]

that's helpful... i've been taught to take it away down the target line, but with this swing i want to take it away inside...

[juansky]

that's helpful... i've been taught to take it away down the target line, but with this swing i want to take it away inside...

 

I actually tilt for all my clubs and it works great.

 

As to taking the club inside...it seems you take it too much inside. I've already tried that inside move but I kept getting stuck and it was very awckward for me to rotate from that much of an inside....it's too shallow of swing too.

 

When I do my take away I make sure the club face is open slightly and I try to keep the toe of the club down the line of my target. How far inside you take the club depends on your set up. The set up should look like a reverse K when viewing face on. It's a much simpler move than one thinks.

[Diesel]

what makes up the reverse K... i didn't understand that concept when i first read it...

[Andariego]

check this out.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pu-wDdY8-g4

 

Jeff Ritter has a great Hardy inspired OPS. Compare your posture and swing to his. Check it frame for frame against yours. I used this video a lot when making the switch to OPS. Simple as it gets.

 

ps- Diesel thanks for the great video quality :)

[juansky]

what makes up the reverse K... i didn't understand that concept when i first read it...

 

Reverse k setup.

[Diesel]

ahh, ok...

 

the reverse K setup stands for short irons as well...?

[Boonie]

ahh, ok...

 

the reverse K setup stands for short irons as well...?

 

Yep. The main difference is the weight distribution (60% left 40% right for a wedge) and the hand position. The spine tilt is still there through all the clubs.

 

IMO the best drill to keep your arms 'connected' on the takeaway is the 'glove under the armpit'. Do that with your 9-3 drill and work up to fuller swings. If you can keep the glove under the armpit on the takeaway, while keeping your right knee flex, it will make a huge difference.

 

Sounds like it's a bit early for you to be too worried about manipulating the clubface open. Don't think about that at this stage.

[Andariego]

what makes up the reverse K... i didn't understand that concept when i first read it...

 

Reverse k setup.

I'm not an instructor that's for sure, but does a reverse K setup work for a rotary swing? I don't see how you could execute a one plane takeaway with your spine tilted away from the target.

[Andariego]

driver swing looks like a flip with the left wrist breaking down. Left wrist looks better with the irons. I see a big stall in the downswing. You will never be able to have a good rotary swing if you stall your body and throw your arms out like you are doing. Proof of this is in the driver swing from behind; At impact your shoulders are not open at all. At impact you are standing straight up and have lost all of your spine angle. I think it is also possible that your right arm straightens too soon which induces a flip and the need to lose your spine angle.

Speaking from a OPS student perspective, Chris87 has it right. You are standing up at impact because when the body stalls, the arms keep going. The arms become disconnected from the body before impact, and you must stand up to make room for the club to get thru the ball..voila a flip. You need to retain your spine angle throughout the takeaway, downswing and impact. The left arm needs to stay against the left chest throughout the takeaway and down swing. It only comes off the chest when the left arm begins to fold just after impact. Thats what Chris is saying about your shoulders at impact. Your shoulders will be open at impact if the arms have stayed connected to the core. btw if you're really switching to a rotary swing you need to be very careful about your instruction. Respectfully, most local teachers only know one way to teach the golf swing. It can be really confusing.

[rok78]

what makes up the reverse K... i didn't understand that concept when i first read it...

 

Reverse k setup.

I'm not an instructor that's for sure, but does a reverse K setup work for a rotary swing? I don't see how you could execute a one plane takeaway with your spine tilted away from the target.

 

Reverse K does work. Hardy doesn't want you to do it at address, but Hardy's way is not the only way :) . Think about pivot points on the downswing and you can see why it may be beneficial. All the reverse K set up does, is pre-set that pivot point at address to reduce lateral movement during the transition.

[rok78]

that's helpful... i've been taught to take it away down the target line, but with this swing i want to take it away inside...

 

Hands can go inside to a degree, just don't let the right elbow get behind you. But the clubhead MUST stay outside your hands at the takeaway. The angles and relationship of your left arm and club (think in 3-D terms) should stay the same for the first part of the swing at least. This keeps the clubhead outside your hands.

 

Another way to feel it is to feel a little lag in your takeaway, so your shoulder, arms, hands start back before the clubhead. You should feel a little lag.

 

Another feel (can you tell I've had this problem :)) is to try and move the clubhead at the same speed as your hands, the only way for the clubhead to move faster is if you manipulate it with your hands/wrists.

 

One last one is the box takeaway drill that Slice and DFW have posted a bunch of times.

[dfw1500]

The hands will move inside a touch especially if they are fully in synch with the turn the hands and arms are reacting to and moving with the turning action of the body.......a great way to get the sensation of the correct takeaway is to use the belly button drill where you will get the feeling for everything moving away as a unit and you will see that you have the club head outside the hands and that the butt of the club will arc inwards..........a great feeling toi help stop it going outside is to feel that you turn the right shoulder backwards and that the toe of the club stays near to the target line you can use this sensation great with the box drill.