Number of strokes on these two holes...

[777twist]

I played with two of my buddies this weekend and this one guy just doesn't seem to know the rules at all. And he never gives himself enough penalty strokes. What really makes me mad is the fact that he's really trying hard to score and do well. I go out and try to perform pro shots that fail big time...I just think I can pull off that power fade under a tree and over a pond.

 

 

Anyway, on a par 5, he does a layup shot that must have been hit thinned or skulled as it went straight toward the woods. Now there was a couple of trees and a big-leafed bush about 30 - 40 yards in front of the woods. As we go over there, he can't find his ball... ok, he says it must be stuck in this bush. So he takes a drop on the other side of the bush (because a tree is on the side he would have gone in) and has a good shot at the green.

 

Now first off, in another thread I thought they said to take a unplayable lie, you have to identify your ball in the bush, otherwise you treat it as a lost ball. Also, lets just say he could identify it, wouldn't he (cuz I doubt it would cut through to the back side of the bush, if it was even in there) have to drop on the side it went in...or does that not matter (and he can take a drop anywhere around the bush no closer to the hole)? I think he gave himself an 8...and I'm sure that's only with 1 penalty stroke.

 

 

Now on 18, he hits a drive that's in the fairway, the next shot is over a kind of marsh. There's no cut through or any bailout, you have to make it over the marsh or your ball is in it. So he hits and it looks like he doesn't make it to me...but it's close enough that he could have. But I tell him to hit a provisional, he then CHUNKS ONES 2 INCHES, and then HITS ONE RIGHT INTO THE HAZARD. So, now he doesn't wnat to hit any more and wants to check his first ball. So we drive all the way around and can't find anything. Then he drops a ball on that side of the hazard and hits a sideways squibber, then chips up the fringe of the green...then on the green and I think a 3 putt.

 

How should that hole be counted? I mean, if you count all his strokes, it seems as though that would be like 15 (with a 2 stroke breach of the hazard rule, 2 strokes for playing from wrong place). But do you count those provisionals if he didn't find his ball and took a drop? If so, that's 3 strokes plus the penalities. BTW, the hazard messes with your mind, but it's not that deep... it's only about 60 yards.

 

There isn't a rule where he can go drop on the other side of the hazard is there? I didn't see a drop zone or anything.

 

BTW, this isn't any tournament or even playing for money. It's just the principle of the matter. Especially when after the round he asks what's the final score...just annoying.

 

Twist

[dbignar]

Your friend is either a cheater or just plain dumb, I have a similar situation with a playing partner who has to improve his lie before every shot, which if thats your thing well so be it, but dont brag about your score after 18. But I do get joy out of letting him know that his score was B S***

[jjj912]

...

 

Anyway, on a par 5, he does a layup shot that must have been hit thinned or skulled as it went straight toward the woods. Now there was a couple of trees and a big-leafed bush about 30 - 40 yards in front of the woods. As we go over there, he can't find his ball... ok, he says it must be stuck in this bush. So he takes a drop on the other side of the bush (because a tree is on the side he would have gone in) and has a good shot at the green.

 

Now first off, in another thread I thought they said to take a unplayable lie, you have to identify your ball in the bush, otherwise you treat it as a lost ball. Also, lets just say he could identify it, wouldn't he (cuz I doubt it would cut through to the back side of the bush, if it was even in there) have to drop on the side it went in...or does that not matter (and he can take a drop anywhere around the bush no closer to the hole)? I think he gave himself an 8...and I'm sure that's only with 1 penalty stroke.

 

 

If you can't find the ball, you have to go back and rehit again from the previous spot.

 

If he was able to find and identify the ball as his, his options under the ball unplayable rule are:

1. Rehit again from the previous spot.

2. Drop within 2 club lengths, not nearer the hole.

3. Drop a ball behind the point where the original ball lay, keeping that point directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit as to how far away the ball may be dropped.

 

All of these options carry a one stroke penalty.

 

As it was, your friend incurred a three stroke penalty. One for the stroke and distance penalty under the lost ball rule and two for breaching the lost ball rule.

 

Now on 18, he hits a drive that's in the fairway, the next shot is over a kind of marsh. There's no cut through or any bailout, you have to make it over the marsh or your ball is in it. So he hits and it looks like he doesn't make it to me...but it's close enough that he could have. But I tell him to hit a provisional, he then CHUNKS ONES 2 INCHES, and then HITS ONE RIGHT INTO THE HAZARD. So, now he doesn't wnat to hit any more and wants to check his first ball. So we drive all the way around and can't find anything. Then he drops a ball on that side of the hazard and hits a sideways squibber, then chips up the fringe of the green...then on the green and I think a 3 putt.

 

How should that hole be counted? I mean, if you count all his strokes, it seems as though that would be like 15 (with a 2 stroke breach of the hazard rule, 2 strokes for playing from wrong place). But do you count those provisionals if he didn't find his ball and took a drop? If so, that's 3 strokes plus the penalities. BTW, the hazard messes with your mind, but it's not that deep... it's only about 60 yards.

 

There isn't a rule where he can go drop on the other side of the hazard is there? I didn't see a drop zone or anything.

 

...

 

 

First of all, you can't hit a provisional ball unless the ball may be lost outside of a water hazard or is out of bounds.

 

Absent a dropping area, all your friend could do was keep hitting from the teeing ground until he hit a ball that cleared the hazard. Each time he would have taken a stroke and distance penalty. If it was possible, your friend could have gone to the point where the ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard and hit from there. From what you've described, it doesn't sound like the kind of hole where that's doable.

 

Assuming for a minute that he could have hit provisional balls. I think he would have incurred a penalty similar to the one above. One for the stroke and distance penalty under the water hazard rule and two for breaching the water hazard rule.

[777twist]

Assuming for a minute that he could have hit provisional balls. I think he would have incurred a penalty similar to the one above. One for the stroke and distance penalty under the water hazard rule and two for breaching the water hazard rule.

 

 

Well, if you are't sure if the ball went into the hazard or whether it made it to the other side (but we may not be able to find it) you can hit a provisional in that case right?

 

Also, in another thread they said breaching the lost ball rule carries at least a 4 stroke penalty... 2 for breaching the lost ball rule, and 2 for hitting from the wrong place (after you dropped).... so after you lose a ball, you would drop and be hitting 6...

 

Granted, some others have said that could be considered a serious breach of the rules and you should take an "X" but screw that... I play on muni's and other courses with lots of people on them. I can't go back and hit...taking a 4 stroke penalty is plenty of a penalty. It's not my fault the rules don't account for a crowed golf course.

 

Anyway, sorry about that little rant...

[KevCarter]

Assuming for a minute that he could have hit provisional balls. I think he would have incurred a penalty similar to the one above. One for the stroke and distance penalty under the water hazard rule and two for breaching the water hazard rule.

 

 

Well, if you are't sure if the ball went into the hazard or whether it made it to the other side (but we may not be able to find it) you can hit a provisional in that case right?

 

Also, in another thread they said breaching the lost ball rule carries at least a 4 stroke penalty... 2 for breaching the lost ball rule, and 2 for hitting from the wrong place (after you dropped).... so after you lose a ball, you would drop and be hitting 6...

 

Granted, some others have said that could be considered a serious breach of the rules and you should take an "X" but screw that... I play on muni's and other courses with lots of people on them. I can't go back and hit...taking a 4 stroke penalty is plenty of a penalty. It's not my fault the rules don't account for a crowed golf course.

 

Anyway, sorry about that little rant...

 

 

No, the ball you hit becomes the ball in play regardless of whether you find the first ball outside the hazard.

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

 

Getting ready for the next rules rant that I will not participate in... :rolleyes:

 

Kevin

[777twist]

 

Well, if you are't sure if the ball went into the hazard or whether it made it to the other side (but we may not be able to find it) you can hit a provisional in that case right?

 

 

No, the ball you hit becomes the ball in play regardless of whether you find the first ball outside the hazard.

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

 

Getting ready for the next rules rant that I will not participate in... :rolleyes:

 

Kevin

 

So wait... you are saying that if this guy thought he made it over...and maybe I should clarify that this swampy/weeded area we have to hit over has an opening before the green, not much only about 5 - 6 yards...but toward the right there is a little more space, about 10 - 15 yards...then next to that is woods. Unless this course is counting those woods as being part of that swampy hazard, then wouldn't they be considered normal woods? Where if your ball went in, it would be considered LOST?

 

Or maybe I just don't get what's considered what... Like at this course I'm talking about, they don't lable anything...no stakes, no lines... Hole 1, has a forrest of trees to the left, but is that OB, Lateral, what???? Early on, we treated all wooded areas like that as OB even if they weren't marked. But then we ran into some courses that would treat those as laterals.

 

What do you do when something isn't marked?

 

And back to my original question... so if this guy hits to that area (we can't really tell if the ball made it over or not, it was just too damn close) ...and if it made it over, it may have gone into that wooded area (as it was really tight over there), or it may have come up short in the hazard. Is there some logic that you have to see it hit land to say it didn't drop in the hazard? Or could he hit a provisional ...and if he finds his ball over the hazard on land, he then plays that (it's back in play). I'm just not sure why he couldn't hit a provisional? Again it's not a provisional whether he made it over or not, it's a provisional in case he made it over...

 

hold on a second... I think I may be getting this on my own here (well not on my own, but with help from you all)... So when hitting over a hazard, the only issue is did the ball make it or not? If you are unsure, you hit a 2nd ball and no matter what that ball becomes in play? I guess I get that, but that doesn't seem right, why does the provisional rule not apply if you can't see your ball hit the hazard? And I thought they change the rules this past year to make it vague ....

 

Without It Being Known or Virtually Certain Ball in Hazard;

 

Anyway, so if it wasn't known or virtually certain, how would he proceed? If he goes up and then drops (after he made the statement that he thinks he made it over) would he be in breach of the LOST ball rule? As he can't be in breach of the Hazard rule because it wasn't "known or virtually certain" that the ball went in the hazard.

 

So, he gets over to his ball and he would at the very least have to take the 4 stroke penalty (2 for breaching lost ball, and 2 for breaching playing from wrong place), but really should go back and rehit.

 

I don't know... my head hurts now.

[KevCarter]

 

Well, if you are't sure if the ball went into the hazard or whether it made it to the other side (but we may not be able to find it) you can hit a provisional in that case right?

 

 

No, the ball you hit becomes the ball in play regardless of whether you find the first ball outside the hazard.

 

27-2. Provisional Ball

 

a. Procedure

 

If a ball may be lost outside a water hazard or may be out of bounds, to save time the player may play another ball provisionally in accordance with Rule 27-1. The player must inform his opponent in match play or his marker or a fellow-competitor in stroke play that he intends to play a provisional ball, and he must play it before he or his partner goes forward to search for the original ball.

 

Getting ready for the next rules rant that I will not participate in... :rolleyes:

 

Kevin

 

So wait... you are saying that if this guy thought he made it over...and maybe I should clarify that this swampy/weeded area we have to hit over has an opening before the green, not much only about 5 - 6 yards...but toward the right there is a little more space, about 10 - 15 yards...then next to that is woods. Unless this course is counting those woods as being part of that swampy hazard, then wouldn't they be considered normal woods? Where if your ball went in, it would be considered LOST?

 

Or maybe I just don't get what's considered what... Like at this course I'm talking about, they don't lable anything...no stakes, no lines... Hole 1, has a forrest of trees to the left, but is that OB, Lateral, what???? Early on, we treated all wooded areas like that as OB even if they weren't marked. But then we ran into some courses that would treat those as laterals.

 

What do you do when something isn't marked?

 

And back to my original question... so if this guy hits to that area (we can't really tell if the ball made it over or not, it was just too damn close) ...and if it made it over, it may have gone into that wooded area (as it was really tight over there), or it may have come up short in the hazard. Is there some logic that you have to see it hit land to say it didn't drop in the hazard? Or could he hit a provisional ...and if he finds his ball over the hazard on land, he then plays that (it's back in play). I'm just not sure why he couldn't hit a provisional? Again it's not a provisional whether he made it over or not, it's a provisional in case he made it over...

 

hold on a second... I think I may be getting this on my own here (well not on my own, but with help from you all)... So when hitting over a hazard, the only issue is did the ball make it or not? If you are unsure, you hit a 2nd ball and no matter what that ball becomes in play? I guess I get that, but that doesn't seem right, why does the provisional rule not apply if you can't see your ball hit the hazard? And I thought they change the rules this past year to make it vague ....

 

Without It Being Known or Virtually Certain Ball in Hazard;

 

Anyway, so if it wasn't known or virtually certain, how would he proceed? If he goes up and then drops (after he made the statement that he thinks he made it over) would he be in breach of the LOST ball rule? As he can't be in breach of the Hazard rule because it wasn't "known or virtually certain" that the ball went in the hazard.

 

So, he gets over to his ball and he would at the very least have to take the 4 stroke penalty (2 for breaching lost ball, and 2 for breaching playing from wrong place), but really should go back and rehit.

 

I don't know... my head hurts now.

 

Twist,

 

The question I was answering was a provisional ball being played for a ball lost in a hazard. This post opened up an entirely diferent can of worms. Perhaps this decision will help for a ball that may me lost in a hazard, as well as may be lost outside a hazard:

 

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q. If a player’s original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

 

Kevin

[777twist]

Twist,

 

The question I was answering was a provisional ball being played for a ball lost in a hazard. This post opened up an entirely diferent can of worms. Perhaps this decision will help for a ball that may me lost in a hazard, as well as may be lost outside a hazard:

 

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

 

Kevin

 

 

Ooh, yeah that helps a lot...

 

I was just doing a photoshop of the situation...

 

Well, as long as I finished that, can you take a look at it and let me know what all those trees outside of the yellow hazard would be considered. Again, there is no markings, no posts, nothing telling me. Are they all an extension of the hazard, and in that case, would they be laterals up to the yellow, and the yellow would be a normal? Or is all this considered OB. I'm just confused. I have never posted a picture, so hopefully I do this right.

 

 

 

Thanks for that rule though, that confirms what I thought... But just for the sake of "getting it" He drives to the fairway, hits his approach in that area thought to be ok (but again, may not have cleared the hazard), I tell him to do a provisional, in case we can't find his ball, since we arn't sure it went into the hazard, he duffs one about 10 inches, then hits another into the hazard... he now says "screw it" I want to see if my original is good...he gets over there and it's no where to be found...he drops and hits 5 more to hole out. Now by my count, that's 15 strokes (using another thread's 4 strokes for failure to do LOST ball correctly)... Forgetting the fact, that some say to take an "X" for a serious breach.

[KevCarter]

Are there stakes marking the yellow area as a hazard?

 

Nice picture btw, that will be a big help in us getting through this!

 

Kevin

[KevCarter]

Twist,

 

The question I was answering was a provisional ball being played for a ball lost in a hazard. This post opened up an entirely diferent can of worms. Perhaps this decision will help for a ball that may me lost in a hazard, as well as may be lost outside a hazard:

 

27-2a/2.2 Possibility That Original Ball Is in Water Hazard May Not Preclude Play of Provisional Ball

 

Q. If a player's original ball may have come to rest in a water hazard, is he precluded from playing a provisional ball?

 

A. No. Even though the original ball may be in a water hazard, the player is entitled to play a provisional ball if the original ball might also be lost outside the water hazard or out of bounds. In such a case, if the original ball is found in the water hazard, the provisional ball must be abandoned — Rule 27-2c (Formerly 27-2c/1)

 

Kevin

 

Thanks for that rule though, that confirms what I thought... But just for the sake of "getting it" He drives to the fairway, hits his approach in that area thought to be ok (but again, may not have cleared the hazard), I tell him to do a provisional, in case we can't find his ball, since we arn't sure it went into the hazard, he duffs one about 10 inches, then hits another into the hazard... he now says "screw it" I want to see if my original is good...he gets over there and it's no where to be found...he drops and hits 5 more to hole out. Now by my count, that's 15 strokes (using another thread's 4 strokes for failure to do LOST ball correctly)... Forgetting the fact, that some say to take an "X" for a serious breach.

 

Twist,

 

By your wording in the bolded area of your quote, I would say the provisional immediately became the ball in play as the player was playing a provisional ball for the sole reason that the original ball did not cross the hazard.

 

Kevin

[777twist]

Are there stakes marking the yellow area as a hazard?

 

Nice picture btw, that will be a big help in us getting through this!

 

Kevin

 

 

No... and maybe that's another problem, I maybe assuming that's a hazard and it may not be. What would something like that yellow area be considered if it wasn't marked as anything???

 

And what are those surrounding tree areas considered? OB? Hazards (lateral)? I just don't know. If my tee shot went into those trees, I would have treated it as OB most likely, but there are no stakes or lines saying it's OB?

 

 

 

In other words, in absance of any markings or stakes, what would wooded areas be considered?

[hbear]

Without stakes the wooded areas are considered wooded areas, not hazards.

If you hit into it and can't find you ball, it's a lost ball. Stroke and distance.

 

No different than any other wooded area.

 

It would not be considered OB, as OB is marked with white stakes.

It would also not be considered OB because if you were to find your ball, you would have the option of playing it, or taking an unplayable....neither of which is an option to you for OB.

[KevCarter]

Without stakes the wooded areas are considered wooded areas, not hazards.

If you hit into it and can't find you ball, it's a lost ball. Stroke and distance.

 

No different than any other wooded area.

 

It would not be considered OB, as OB is marked with white stakes.

It would also not be considered OB because if you were to find your ball, you would have the option of playing it, or taking an unplayable....neither of which is an option to you for OB.

 

hbear is 100% correct.

[BILL12x]

To answer your original question, his scores would be 12, and 14 on the respective holes, if he can even card a score at all. He would be DQ'd from a tournament for either of these.

 

On the 1st hole, the par 5, you said he took an 8. With the 1 stroke penalty he gave himself, he took 6 shots to hole it from the trees. 1. Drive; 2, 3 and 4 Stroke and distance and penalty for not doing it right. 5,6 for illegal drop. 6 more from there for a 12.

 

The next hole - 1. Drive. 2 hazard, 3 drop, 4 topped, 5 hazard. 6,7, 8 drop plus 2 stroke for illegal drop, 9 sideways, 10 to fringe, 11 onto green, 3 putt for a 14.

 

Please, GOD, don't let me play behind you guys!

[jjj912]

...

Thanks for that rule though, that confirms what I thought... But just for the sake of "getting it" He drives to the fairway, hits his approach in that area thought to be ok (but again, may not have cleared the hazard), I tell him to do a provisional, in case we can't find his ball, since we arn't sure it went into the hazard, he duffs one about 10 inches, then hits another into the hazard... he now says "screw it" I want to see if my original is good...he gets over there and it's no where to be found...he drops and hits 5 more to hole out. Now by my count, that's 15 strokes (using another thread's 4 strokes for failure to do LOST ball correctly)... Forgetting the fact, that some say to take an "X" for a serious breach.

 

Let me clarify the four stroke thingy. It's a stroke due to a swing, a one stroke penalty under a Rule, and a two stroke penalty for breaching that Rule. It is not a pair of two stroke penalties. So if you hit a shot into the hazard, drop illegally, and hit again, that's a total of 5 strokes.

1. Stroke from first swing.

2. Peanlty for hitting OB, or into water hazard, or losing ball.

3. Two stroke penalty for breaching the applicable Rule.

4. Two stroke penalty for breaching the applicable Rule.

5. Stroke from second swing.

 

So, I think your friend would have taken a 10 on the hole with the water hazard:

1. Drive

2. Hits into hazard

3. Penalty under Water Hazard Rule.

4. Two stroke penalty for breaching the Water Hazard Rule.

5. Two stroke penalty for breaching the Water Hazard Rule.

6. 1 of 5 shots to hole out.

7. 2 of 5 shots to hole out.

8. 3 of 5 shots to hole out.

9. 4 of 5 shots to hole out.

10. Holes out

 

Since he was entitiled under Decision 27-2a/2.2 to hit a provisional ball (Good work Kev) I don't think we count those strokes.

 

Thinking about it, a key question is did he hit one or two provisional balls? If he duffed the first one and then hit that same ball again, he should be ok. If he duffed the first one, dropped another ball and hit again, then we might have to add some more strokes to his score depending on the status of the duffed ball (e.g. lost, OB, etc).

[hbear]

I just know I wouldn't want to be the one keeping his scorecard in a tournament!

:rolleyes:

 

But to add, if he duffed his first, then just dropped and rehit, the second ball (one he just rehit) would be in play, as the first would be considered abandoned since he didn't declare his second to be a provisional.

[Justin_Ellis]

Your friend is either a cheater or just plain dumb, I have a similar situation with a playing partner who has to improve his lie before every shot, which if thats your thing well so be it, but dont brag about your score after 18. But I do get joy out of letting him know that his score was B S***

Not to be start an argument but why does this sort of thing really bother people so much? If they are posting scores for handicap so be it they are doing you more a favor than anything else when it comes to rounds that really count. Secondly I learned a long time ago that 99.99% of people play this game for fun and they stink at it. I just let them enjoy themselves because in the end its not hurting anyone.

Justin

 

Edit: If your friend has an established handicap equitable stroke control would have come into play on both of these holes anyways unless it was a tournament.

[777twist]

Please, GOD, don't let me play behind you guys!

 

 

No you do not!!! But the guy who scores the best probably takes the longest. Either way, yeah...don't get behind us.

 

Although, we will let you play through. I play pretty fast, but that ends up costing me strokes...too much of a hurry.

[777twist]

Your friend is either a cheater or just plain dumb, I have a similar situation with a playing partner who has to improve his lie before every shot, which if thats your thing well so be it, but dont brag about your score after 18. But I do get joy out of letting him know that his score was B S***

Not to be start an argument but why does this sort of thing really bother people so much? If they are posting scores for handicap so be it they are doing you more a favor than anything else when it comes to rounds that really count. Secondly I learned a long time ago that 99.99% of people play this game for fun and they stink at it. I just let them enjoy themselves because in the end its not hurting anyone.

Justin

 

Edit: If your friend has an established handicap equitable stroke control would have come into play on both of these holes anyways unless it was a tournament.

 

 

I personally could care less if he wanted to go out and have fun. I wouldn't even care if he kept some sort of "cheater score"... What bothers me is when the round is over when the guy asks how everyone did and he says he did this. I'm sorry, but that deflates my score and what I worked to do on the course. And yes, when we play for money, I will probably take all of his, because if we play by the RULES or by some form of rules he likes (as long as we both play by them) then I will probably end up 5 strokes better than him.

 

No, this guy doesn't keep a handicap yet.

[777twist]

Let me clarify the four stroke thingy. It's a stroke due to a swing, a one stroke penalty under a Rule, and a two stroke penalty for breaching that Rule. It is not a pair of two stroke penalties. So if you hit a shot into the hazard, drop illegally, and hit again, that's a total of 5 strokes.

1. Stroke from first swing.

2. Peanlty for hitting OB, or into water hazard, or losing ball.

3. Two stroke penalty for breaching the applicable Rule.

4. Two stroke penalty for breaching the applicable Rule.

5. Stroke from second swing.

 

So, I think your friend would have taken a 10 on the hole with the water hazard:

1. Drive

2. Hits into hazard

3. Penalty under Water Hazard Rule.

4. Two stroke penalty for breaching the Water Hazard Rule.

5. Two stroke penalty for breaching the Water Hazard Rule.

6. 1 of 5 shots to hole out.

7. 2 of 5 shots to hole out.

8. 3 of 5 shots to hole out.

9. 4 of 5 shots to hole out.

10. Holes out

 

Since he was entitiled under Decision 27-2a/2.2 to hit a provisional ball (Good work Kev) I don't think we count those strokes.

 

Thinking about it, a key question is did he hit one or two provisional balls? If he duffed the first one and then hit that same ball again, he should be ok. If he duffed the first one, dropped another ball and hit again, then we might have to add some more strokes to his score depending on the status of the duffed ball (e.g. lost, OB, etc).

 

 

So wait... you don't get a "Playing from Wrong Place" penalty? I'm confused on how penalties are stacked and is there a maximum?

 

 

So, lets take a simple example:

 

I tee off and hit the ball and it hits in the deep rough. I walk over and look for it in the area I think it should be...but can't find it. I can't go back to the tee as another group is approaching. So I say screw it (I'm not taking an "X" BTW, I think that's bullxxxx for public courses, I don't have the advantages tounament players have with time and spotters, etc...) and I drop a ball in that area I though mine was lost. I hit to the fairway.

 

So right now, my next shot will be 6?

 

STROKE1 - from Tee

STROKE2 - Penalty for LOST Ball

STROKE3 - Penalty for Breach of Distance part of "lost ball" rule

STROKE4 - Penalty for Breach of Distance part of "lost ball" rule

STROKE5 - Shot to fairway

STROKE6 - ....next shot

 

So "playing from wrong place" doesn't come into play, is that right?

[jjj912]

The penalty for playing from the wrong place is "...two strokes under the applicable Rule." So, playing from the wrong place doesn't have a penalty per se. Simply speaking, to play the wrong place you have to play from a spot where the rules do not permit you to play.

 

Maybe it's more accurate in the situation you've postulated to describe it this way:

 

1. Drive.

2. Penalty for lost ball under the lost ball rule.

3. Stroke to the fairway.

4. Two strokes for playing from the wrong place, which is actually two strokes for breaching the lost ball rule because the penalty for playing from the wrong place is two strokes under the applicable Rule.

5. The second stroke of that two stroke penalty.

6. Next shot.

[Titleist1455]

I just hope you're not adding up his scores to figure out whether or not you won the hole!! :rolleyes:

[777twist]

The penalty for playing from the wrong place is "...two strokes under the applicable Rule." So, playing from the wrong place doesn't have a penalty per se. Simply speaking, to play the wrong place you have to play from a spot where the rules do not permit you to play.

 

Maybe it's more accurate in the situation you've postulated to describe it this way:

 

1. Drive.

2. Penalty for lost ball under the lost ball rule.

3. Stroke to the fairway.

4. Two strokes for playing from the wrong place, which is actually two strokes for breaching the lost ball rule because the penalty for playing from the wrong place is two strokes under the applicable Rule.

5. The second stroke of that two stroke penalty.

6. Next shot.

 

 

Is there a maximum number of penalties... in other words, can penalties stack, or does the worst offense the one you go with?

[777twist]

I just hope you're not adding up his scores to figure out whether or not you won the hole!! :rolleyes:

 

 

No, I won't play him for money or anything like that yet. He needs to understand the rules better before we get into that. Plus when we do, I will make sure we are playing by the same rules (even if they aren't the USGA approved ones) and I will keep his score.

 

I just hate when guys talk about their score after a round when they don't count all the strokes they should. If I don't know a rule, I normally side toward the worse lie or the more strokes. I would rather be incorrect to the negative than to the positive.

[jjj912]

[...

 

Is there a maximum number of penalties... in other words, can penalties stack, or does the worst offense the one you go with?

 

If a single acts results in breaching two rules with different penalties, you apply the most severe penalty. Decisions 1-4/12 through 1-4/15 layout how to apply the penalties under various scenarios. I've pasted Decision 1-4/12 below. It covers the issue of stacking penalties. Most of the time, you will be only penalized one time, though there are situations where the penalties will stack.

 

1-4/12 Player Breaches Rules More Than Once Prior to Stroke; Whether Multiple Penalties Applied

 

Prior to making a stroke, there may be circumstances where a player breaches a Rule more than once, or breaches different Rules and it would seem that a penalty should be applied to each separate breach. However, in the majority of cases and based on equity (Rule 1-4), it would not be appropriate to apply multiple penalties.

 

For the purpose of applying the principles in this Decision, Rules 4-3a, 4-3b, 4-3c, 13-4a, 13-4b, 13-4c, 14-2a, 14-2b, 17-3a, 17-3b, 17-3c, 18-2a and 18-2b should be considered as separate Rules.

 

Below are the specific principles to be applied when determining whether multiple penalties are appropriate when more than one breach has occurred prior to a player making a stroke:

 

1. Single Act Results in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Single Penalty Applied

 

Example: In stroke play, a competitor’s ball on the putting green strikes a fellow-competitor’s ball in breach of Rule 19-5 and then strikes another fellow-competitor’s ball, also in breach of Rule 19-5. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty (see Decision 19-5/3).

 

2. Single Act Results in Two Rules Being Breached — Single Penalty Applied

 

Example: In stroke play, a competitor is considering putting his ball from a bunker and rakes a footprint in the bunker on his line of play. Both Rule 13-2 and Rule 13-4a have been breached. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

 

3. Multiple Occurrences of the Same or Similar Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Single Penalty Applied

 

Example 1: In stroke play, a competitor takes several practice swings in a hazard, touching the ground each time. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty (see Decision 13-4/3).

 

Example 2: In stroke play, a player removes sand on his line of play through the green and presses down a replaced divot which is also on his line of play. The ruling would be a single two-stroke penalty.

 

4. Different Acts Result in Two Rules Being Breached, but Breach of Second Rule Is a Direct Consequence of the Initial Breach — Single Penalty Applied

 

Example: In stroke play, a competitor’s ball moves prior to address and while it is in motion it is accidentally stopped by the competitor’s club in breach of Rule 19-2. The competitor then moves the club and, therefore, moves his ball, normally a penalty stroke under Rule 18-2a. This would result in a single one-stroke penalty under Rule 19-2 (see Decision 19-2/1.5). If the ball is not replaced before the competitor makes his next stroke, the failure to replace the ball is considered a separate act and he incurs an additional penalty of two strokes under Rule 18-2a.

 

5. Different Acts Result in Two Rules Being Breached — Multiple Penalties Applied

 

Example: In stroke play, a competitor (1) touches the ground in a hazard with his club while taking practice swings in a hazard and (2) improves his line of play by bending a shrub with his hand. The ruling would be a two-stroke penalty under Rule 13-4 (touching the ground in a hazard with his club) and a further penalty of two strokes under Rule 13-2 (improving his line of play by moving something growing), giving a total penalty of four strokes (see Decision 13-4/28).

 

6. Different Acts Result in One Rule Being Breached More Than Once — Multiple Penalties Applied

 

Example: In stroke play, a competitor (1) purposely steps on another player’s line of putt with the intention of improving the line, and then (2) purposely stops his own ball in motion after it began moving without apparent cause before address. The ruling would be two separate penalties, each of two strokes, for breaches of Rule 1-2, giving a total penalty of four strokes.

[777twist]

The penalty for playing from the wrong place is "...two strokes under the applicable Rule." So, playing from the wrong place doesn't have a penalty per se. Simply speaking, to play the wrong place you have to play from a spot where the rules do not permit you to play.

 

Maybe it's more accurate in the situation you've postulated to describe it this way:

 

1. Drive.

2. Penalty for lost ball under the lost ball rule.

3. Stroke to the fairway.

4. Two strokes for playing from the wrong place, which is actually two strokes for breaching the lost ball rule because the penalty for playing from the wrong place is two strokes under the applicable Rule.

5. The second stroke of that two stroke penalty.

6. Next shot.

 

 

So based on the Multiple Penalties vs Single Penalty for multiple infractions rule you just posted, then how come it isn't a two stroke penalty for breaching the LOST/OB rule (stroke and distance) when you don't go back and hit from your previous spot... and then how come it isn't two more strokes for "Playing from Wrong Place"

 

 

The rules give examples, but not the reason WHY, those can stack versus those that can't.

 

 

I'm not saying right or wrong, I'm just trying to wrap my mind around this... Also, how does most people score this (forgetting those that count it as an "X", I just won't do that, on muni course where I can't go back and hit, I think that's bullsh!t)?

[jjj912]

I've asked myself that same question. If you ever get a chance to talk with a rules official, this would be a great question to ask him or her. He or she should be able to explain it much better than I can.

 

I think the way it works is that when you are penalized for playing from the wrong place, the penalty is general penalty for breaching the Rule that you were supposed to follow. There isn't a penalty for playing from the wrong place and a penalty for breaching a rule. There is just one penalty, breaching the relevant rule. The way I see it, the playing from the wrong place rule is redundant from a penalty standpoint. All it does is clarify that you take a penalty for breaking the applicable rule. The applicabe rule in this case is the lost ball rule.

 

With regards to the multiple penalty versus single penalty issue, lets assume for a minute that the playing from the wrong place rule carries its own separate two stroke penalty. In our situation you breached two rules: You played from the wrong place and you broke the lost ball rule. You broke both rules with a single act: You made a stroke near where the ball was lost instead of going back to the prevous spot. Since you broke two rules with a single act, only one penalty is applied.

[KevCarter]

I've asked myself that same question. If you ever get a chance to talk with a rules official, this would be a great question to ask him or her. He or she should be able to explain it much better than I can.

 

I think the way it works is that when you are penalized for playing from the wrong place, the penalty is general penalty for breaching the Rule that you were supposed to follow. There isn't a penalty for playing from the wrong place and a penalty for breaching a rule. There is just one penalty, breaching the relevant rule. The way I see it, the playing from the wrong place rule is redundant from a penalty standpoint. All it does is clarify that you take a penalty for breaking the applicable rule. The applicabe rule in this case is the lost ball rule.

 

With regards to the multiple penalty versus single penalty issue, lets assume for a minute that the playing from the wrong place rule carries its own separate two stroke penalty. In our situation you breached two rules: You played from the wrong place and you broke the lost ball rule. You broke both rules with a single act: You made a stroke near where the ball was lost instead of going back to the prevous spot. Since you broke two rules with a single act, only one penalty is applied.

 

There are two decisions making the stacking of penalties in this situation moot in my opinion. As I have said in the past, proceeding in this manner is a serious breach that must be corrected. If you take he extraneous outside agency out of both these decisions, you come to the same conclusion in principle due to the last 2 paragraphs in each decision.

 

 

20-7/1 Ball Played from Spot Where Original Ball Deflected Out of Bounds by Maintenance Vehicle

Q. A player’s tee shot travels about 175 yards and, while still in motion, is deflected out of bounds by a golf course maintenance vehicle. The player, claiming the vehicle should not have been there, dropped a ball near the spot where the vehicle deflected the original ball, completed play of the hole and stated that he had incurred no penalty. Was the player correct?

 

A. No. A maintenance vehicle is an outside agency. The original ball would have been played as it lay, without penalty, if it had been in bounds — Rule 19-1. Since the ball was out of bounds, the player was obliged to proceed under Rule 27-1.

 

The player, in dropping a ball near where the original ball was deflected and playing it, played from a wrong place.

 

In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole — Rule 20-7b.

 

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. Since the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as prescribed in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c.

 

 

27-1/2.5 Lost Ball Treated as Moved by Outside Agency in Absence of Knowledge or Virtual Certainty to That Effect

Q. A player who is unable to find his ball treats it as moved by an outside agency, rather than lost, in the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty to that effect. Accordingly, he drops a ball where he thinks his original ball came to rest (Rule 18-1) and plays it, rather than taking the stroke-and-distance penalty for a lost ball (Rule 27-1). What is the ruling?

 

A. In the absence of knowledge or virtual certainty that the ball had been moved by an outside agency, the player was required to put another ball into play under Rule 27-1. In playing the ball dropped under Rule 18-1, the player played from a wrong place.

 

In match play, he incurred a penalty of loss of hole (Rule 20-7b).

 

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c. (Revised)

[777twist]

In stroke play, he incurred the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule (Rule 20-7c). Because the breach was a serious one, he was subject to disqualification unless he corrected the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c. (Revised)

 

 

This is what I was looking for Kev, it pretty much explains what everyone else has been talking around. I just wanted some decisions that were close enough to make sense and both of these work.

 

I do agree with the whole "serious breach" aspect, but my contention (even though wrong, and not following the rules) is it's not practical for us to go back when we can't find a ball. Again, OB will almost never be an issue, as I will hit provisionals. I have even started hitting provisionals if I end up in deep rough. I don't waste 5 min looking for my balls, I think that's just too long, especially when you could have multiple people looking for balls on each hole. I look for about a minute or two tops and then drop. Now, if the tee behind me is clear, I'm in a cart and can get back and hit without pissing everyone off, I will do so. But again, I don't think it's reasonable to ask us to do that when our courses are full.

 

Also, your two examples say those are serious breaches, but I thought in the rules I read that the Committee has to determine if playing in that way gave too much advantage and thus was a serious breach. Did I read that wrong? Is just the mere fact that I broke the rule a serious breach?

 

Maybe what I will do is just put an X at the top of my score card so I don't record those as accurate scores...but it still gives me a score for the day that I can track my progress (with an astrix).

 

Anyway, thanks for the info... please remember, I'm not trying to get away with something, I'm trying to get my partners to play as close as we can to the official rules... so a 3 stroke penalty for dropping where we thought a lost ball was supposed to be is a lot closer than 1 stroke that most of these jokers have been doing. Not perfect, just closer.

 

Again, thanks for the info to everyone... especially to you Kev for those last two decisions, they helped a lot.

 

Twist

[jjj912]

This is the decision that directly addresses playing from where a ball was lost. Same logic as in the decisions post by Kev.

 

27-1/3 Ball Dropped in Area Where Original Ball Lost; Ball Then Played

 

Q. A player, unable to find his ball, drops another ball in the area where his original ball was lost and plays that ball. What is the ruling?

 

A. In match play, the player loses the hole — Rule 20-7b.

 

In stroke play, the player incurs the stroke-and-distance penalty prescribed by Rule 27-1 and an additional penalty of two strokes for a breach of that Rule. If the breach was a serious one, he must rectify the error as provided in the second paragraph of Rule 20-7c; otherwise, he is disqualified.