UK - In a lateral water hazard.

[Maharishi]

Me & two friends were playing a friendly round yesterday morning & we come to the 7th hole a drivable par 4 of 322yards, my friend hits a cracking drive which looks to be pin high but just left of the green, when we get up there we find out the ball has rolled into the hazard on the left, there is a river that runs the whole length of the hole on the left, due to the weather its a little dried out at the moment so he gets in there & says there is no way i can hit it & im going to take a penalty drop for 3, however he has a practice swing & a leaf falls from a stinging nettle, anyway he drops for 3, hits his pitch shot onto the green & two putts for a bogey 5.

 

My question is was that the correct penalty or not? i thought it was and marked his card with a bogey 5? there was no money on the game as we are all close friends & play for fun, im just curious, thats all.

 

Thanks in advance for any info guys.

[villa]

Firstly, as long as he dropped the ball in the right place, he's fine. It must be on a direct line between the tee and where the ball finished (you can't just drop it out to the side). He can go back as far as he wants as long as he sticks to that line. As for the penalty, he would then be playing his 3rd shot.

 

At what point did he have a practice swing and knock a leaf off? Did he have the swing and then decide it was unplayable? If it's the latter, it's another 2 stroke penalty I'm afraid.

 

Stupid rule and as long as it was just a game for fun and your scores weren't going towards your handicaps, it's all good.

[Maharishi]

Villa, thanks for the info.

 

Yeah, he dropped it in the correct position, line of entry & no closer to the pin.

 

He decided it was unplayable, told me & my other friend that he was going to take a drop, but before he picked the ball up, he had a practice swing & the leaf fell?

 

So is it another 2 shot penalty?

[villa]

Villa, thanks for the info.

 

Yeah, he dropped it in the correct position, line of entry & no closer to the pin.

 

He decided it was unplayable, told me & my other friend that he was going to take a drop, but before he picked the ball up, he had a practice swing & the leaf fell?

 

So is it another 2 shot penalty?

I see mate, that's a tricky one.

 

That rule is there because you're deemed to be improving your lie or area of intended swing. If he'd already decided to drop elsewhere then I'd say there was no penalty.

 

You may want to double check that with others but I think it's right.

[Maharishi]

Yeah, he had already made it clear to us that he was going to take a penalty drop.

 

I knew that if the leaf had dropped & he had intended to play it from where it was i was a 2 shot penalty (improving ones lie) but he didnt intend to play it from there & made his intentions clear before he took a practice swing, this is the area where i am confused also, ha ha.

 

Hopefully others will post to confirm what you have posted already.

 

Cheers Villa.

[jjj912]

I'm struggling to understand what happened. First, you can not take an unplayable lie in a water hazard. You must proceed under the Water Hazard Rule. A water hazard is a water hazard regardless of whether or not it contains water. Second, based on your description of the hole, it sounds like he hit into a lateral water hazard, but the relief procedure described is generally only used for "normal" water hazards. Furthermore, the relief procedure itself doesn't sound correct. You don't drop on the line of entry. You drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

[DaveyH]

if he moved the leaf whilst practicing to try and get at the ball to see if he had a line to swing.

Its a 2 shot penalty.

[villa]

I'm struggling to understand what happened. First, you can not take an unplayable lie in a water hazard. You must proceed under the Water Hazard Rule. A water hazard is a water hazard regardless of whether or not it contains water. Second, based on your description of the hole, it sounds like he hit into a lateral water hazard, but the relief procedure described is generally only used for "normal" water hazards. Furthermore, the relief procedure itself doesn't sound correct. You don't drop on the line of entry. You drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

What's the difference?

 

I'm not very clued up on these things but as far as I know, he's free to deem the ball as unplayable if he wants. He then drops the ball on the line of entry no nearer the hole. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that from a lateral hazard he also has the option of dropping 2 club lengths away no nearer the hole?

if he moved the leaf whilst practicing to try and get at the ball to see if he had a line to swing.

Its a 2 shot penalty.

The OP stated that his playing partner had already said he was going to drop so it wasn't really a practice swing.

[jjj912]

What's the difference?

 

I'm not very clued up on these things but as far as I know, he's free to deem the ball as unplayable if he wants. He then drops the ball on the line of entry no nearer the hole. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that from a lateral hazard he also has the option of dropping 2 club lengths away no nearer the hole?

 

For a shot that goes straight along a line to the hole, there is no difference. However, if the shot is hooked or sliced and you drop along the line of entry, the ball would be dropped to the left of right of the point where it last crossed the margin in the hazard instead of directly behind that point.

 

The unplayable ball rule specifically states that you can't declare a ball unplayable in a water hazard.

 

If it is a lateral hazard, then you are right and he can drop within 2 clublengths. However, it is not clear that the hazard is a lateral hazard. The description of the hole makes it sound like a lateral hazard, but the talk about dropping on the line of entry makes it sound like a "normal" water hazard. A water hazard is a lateral water hazard when the water hazard so situated that it is not possible to drop a ball behind the water hazard. So if it was a lateral water hazard, I would have expected the OP to have made some comment about it, such as dropping within 2 club lengths or a remark about red stakes. That said, I suppose it is possible to have situation where a hazard is marked as a lateral hazard, but it still be possible to drop behind it.

[Maharishi]

I'm struggling to understand what happened. First, you can not take an unplayable lie in a water hazard. You must proceed under the Water Hazard Rule. A water hazard is a water hazard regardless of whether or not it contains water. Second, based on your description of the hole, it sounds like he hit into a lateral water hazard, but the relief procedure described is generally only used for "normal" water hazards. Furthermore, the relief procedure itself doesn't sound correct. You don't drop on the line of entry. You drop a ball behind the water hazard, keeping the point at which the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped, with no limit to how far behind the water hazard the ball may be dropped.

 

Thanks for your reply JJJ

 

Hi, there is no way you could drop behind the Water Hazard, the river runs the whole length of the hole, my friend hits his drive with a Draw Ball flight, its hit the fairway left of the green & rolled down the slope in to the Lateral Water Hazard (Red Stakes) which is a river in the winter but its been very dry in the Uk, so the level of water has dropped by 2-3 feet, he then takes a penalty drop on where we all agree the Ball entered the Hazard, no closer to the hole.

 

Anymore info JJJ would be great, thank you.

 

 

What's the difference?

 

I'm not very clued up on these things but as far as I know, he's free to deem the ball as unplayable if he wants. He then drops the ball on the line of entry no nearer the hole. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that from a lateral hazard he also has the option of dropping 2 club lengths away no nearer the hole?

 

For a shot that goes straight along a line to the hole, there is no difference. However, if the shot is hooked or sliced and you drop along the line of entry, the ball would be dropped to the left of right of the point where it last crossed the margin in the hazard instead of directly behind that point.

 

The unplayable ball rule specifically states that you can't declare a ball unplayable in a water hazard.

 

If it is a lateral hazard, then you are right and he can drop within 2 clublengths. However, it is not clear that the hazard is a lateral hazard. The description of the hole makes it sound like a lateral hazard, but the talk about dropping on the line of entry makes it sound like a "normal" water hazard. A water hazard is a lateral water hazard when the water hazard so situated that it is not possible to drop a ball behind the water hazard. So if it was a lateral water hazard, I would have expected the OP to have made some comment about it, such as dropping within 2 club lengths or a remark about red stakes. That said, I suppose it is possible to have situation where a hazard is marked as a lateral hazard, but it still be possible to drop behind it.

 

 

My Bad JJJ, his drive had a Draw Ball Flight, also the fairway is a little bumpy, is not uncomman to hit a dead straight drive & have it bounce a few yards left or right on landing. The River is a Lateral Water Hazard & marked with Red Stakes the whole length of the river.

[jjj912]

...

 

Hi, there is no way you could drop behind the Water Hazard, the river runs the whole length of the hole, my friend hits his drive with a Draw Ball flight, its hit the fairway left of the green & rolled down the slope in to the Lateral Water Hazard (Red Stakes) which is a river in the winter but its been very dry in the Uk, so the level of water has dropped by 2-3 feet, he then takes a penalty drop on where we all agree the Ball entered the Hazard, no closer to the hole.

...

 

Thanks for the clarification. Since he hit into a lateral water hazard, his options were to rehit or drop a ball within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard.

[Maharishi]

...

 

Hi, there is no way you could drop behind the Water Hazard, the river runs the whole length of the hole, my friend hits his drive with a Draw Ball flight, its hit the fairway left of the green & rolled down the slope in to the Lateral Water Hazard (Red Stakes) which is a river in the winter but its been very dry in the Uk, so the level of water has dropped by 2-3 feet, he then takes a penalty drop on where we all agree the Ball entered the Hazard, no closer to the hole.

...

 

Thanks for the clarification. Since he hit into a lateral water hazard, his options were to rehit or drop a ball within two club-lengths of and not nearer the hole than the point where the original ball last crossed the margin of the water hazard.

 

Thanks JJJ, much appreciated

 

Any knowledge on the leaf falling?

 

Thanks.

[jjj912]

Thanks JJJ, much appreciated

 

Any knowledge on the leaf falling?

 

Thanks.

 

On the surface, breaking the leaf of the tree is a violation of Rule 13-2. However, Decision 13-2/22 says maybe not. Since the player was dropping outside of the hazard, the leaf would not have affected the lie of his next stroke. So, I say no penalty.

 

13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing

 

Q. A player’s ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

 

A. The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.

 

If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

[KevCarter]

Thanks JJJ, much appreciated

 

Any knowledge on the leaf falling?

 

Thanks.

 

On the surface, breaking the leaf of the tree is a violation of Rule 13-2. However, Decision 13-2/22 says maybe not. Since the player was dropping outside of the hazard, the leaf would not have affected the lie of his next stroke. So, I say no penalty.

 

13-2/22 Knocking Down Leaves with Practice Swing

 

Q. A player’s ball lies near a tree or bush. The player takes a practice swing near his ball and knocks down leaves in the area of his intended swing. Is this a breach of Rule 13-2?

 

A. The answer depends on whether the area of the intended swing is improved. In some cases, the knocking down of a number of leaves would not improve the area of the intended swing as the player still has to swing through a number of remaining leaves when making his stroke. In such circumstances, there would be no breach of the Rules. In other cases, the knocking down of one leaf might improve the area of the intended swing, in which case there would be a breach of Rule 13-2.

 

If a player has improved the area of his intended swing by knocking down a leaf or a number of leaves, he cannot avoid penalty under Rule 13-2 by subsequently changing the area of his swing when he actually makes the stroke.

 

jjj912,

 

I believe it to be a 13-4 issue, rather than 13-2. I am not certain of which way I am going with it yet...

 

Kevin

[KevCarter]

Here is the closest decision I could find:

 

13-4/17 Loose Impediment Removed from Water Hazard; Player Then Decides Not to Play from Hazard

 

Q. A player whose ball was in a water hazard removed a loose impediment from the hazard. He then decided not to play from the hazard. He proceeded under Rule 26-1. Was the player absolved from the penalty incurred under Rule 13-4 for removing the loose impediment in view of the fact that he subsequently invoked Rule 26-1 and did not play his ball from the hazard?

 

A. No.

 

The principle is the same as the ruling we are discussing, even though this speaks of a loose impediment rather than testing.

 

Did the fact that the player said he was invoking rule 26-1 matter? He could have changed his mind...

 

I'm not sure about this one.

 

Kevin

[jjj912]

In the original post it sounded to me like the player broke a leaf off of a plant. Since the leaf was attached to the plant, then it was not a loose impediment.

 

It also sounded like the player made it clear that he intended to drop out side of the hazard for his next shot before he cause the leaf to move. If the leaf was a loose impediment then I think I would say no penalty because the leaf would not have affected the area where the player intended to take his next stroke. I'm using the logic in Decisions 13-4/13 and 13-4/13.5.

 

If the leaf was a loose impediment and the player moved it prior to announcing his intention to play from outside the hazard, then I'd agree with you.

 

13-4/13 Accidentally Moving Loose Impediment in Hazard

 

Q. A player accidentally moves a loose impediment in a hazard. Does the player incur a penalty?

 

A. No, provided the loose impediment was not moved in making the backswing and the lie of the ball or area of the intended stance or swing was not improved.

 

13-4/13.5 Player Moves Loose Impediments When Approaching Ball in Hazard

 

Q. A player’s ball lies in a bunker that is covered with many loose twigs and leaves. In approaching the ball and taking his stance, the player touches and moves loose impediments with his feet. Does he incur a penalty?

 

A. There is no penalty provided the lie of the ball or area of intended stance or swing is not improved.

[KevCarter]

jjj912,

 

I'm not disagreeing, but I think you missed the point of my post and the decision I felt to be relevant in principle...

 

Kevin

[villa]

What's the difference?

 

I'm not very clued up on these things but as far as I know, he's free to deem the ball as unplayable if he wants. He then drops the ball on the line of entry no nearer the hole. In fact, I think I'm right in saying that from a lateral hazard he also has the option of dropping 2 club lengths away no nearer the hole?

 

For a shot that goes straight along a line to the hole, there is no difference. However, if the shot is hooked or sliced and you drop along the line of entry, the ball would be dropped to the left of right of the point where it last crossed the margin in the hazard instead of directly behind that point.

 

The unplayable ball rule specifically states that you can't declare a ball unplayable in a water hazard.

 

If it is a lateral hazard, then you are right and he can drop within 2 clublengths. However, it is not clear that the hazard is a lateral hazard. The description of the hole makes it sound like a lateral hazard, but the talk about dropping on the line of entry makes it sound like a "normal" water hazard. A water hazard is a lateral water hazard when the water hazard so situated that it is not possible to drop a ball behind the water hazard. So if it was a lateral water hazard, I would have expected the OP to have made some comment about it, such as dropping within 2 club lengths or a remark about red stakes. That said, I suppose it is possible to have situation where a hazard is marked as a lateral hazard, but it still be possible to drop behind it.

Makes sense mate, thanks for clearing it up.

 

You guys put me to shame when it comes to the rules. My only form of reference is a dog-eared water-stained rule book hidden somewhere in my bag!

[Maharishi]

Villa, JJJ & Kev Carter, i thank you all for your positive input :tup:

 

I have learnt a bunch of new rules

 

And it looks as thought my buddy was within the rules too, so thats cool

 

Cheers guys.