Club Championship Cheat?

[maggot]

Here is the scenario that happened today in the group in front of me in our club championships.

 

Par 4 with water all the way down the left.

 

Player hits his first ball into the water directly in front of the tee. Goes to the end of the tee box to hit his next and puts it in the fairway.

 

The next shot is pulled into the water. next to the green. There is an old drop zone that has been crossed out with the new one next to it. He drops into the wrong drop zone and plays his next shot. His marker call him to play it again from the correct drop zone. He walks up to his ball on the green picks it up and throws it in the water. Goes back to his bag, pull out another ball and throws it into the correct drop zone from 10y away.

 

He then proceeds to chip onto the green and two putts.

 

I find out after the round he signed for an 8.

 

His marker did not say anything about it and allowed the card to be handed in.

 

Later in the day he was also seen standing with both feet together directly behind the ball in the rough and nothing was said.

 

I hate cheats.

[Dizz]

LOL what exactly is the ruling in that situation?

[Ty_Webb]

Off the top of my head, and I'm far from sure about this in most of the things he did.

 

One off the tee

Penalty

Shot to the fairway

Shot in the water

Drop (in the wrong place)

Plays from the wrong place (two shots???)

Corrects it, but makes an incorrect drop (one shot???)

Chips on

Putt

Putt

 

For 11. Having said that, I think DQ is probably the only real option for such blatant disregard for the rules (throwing his ball into the drop zone from ten yards away). NB I'm assuming that there is no penalty for throwing the ball away and using another one. It's possible that is another two shots for an incorrectly substituted ball, but I don't think so.

 

The 8 he signed for could only be correct if he took no penalty for playing from the wrong place and then subsequently no penalty for the incorrect drop, neither of which is correct, surely, so DQ is the right choice for signing for an incorrect score.

[maggot]

Off the top of my head, and I'm far from sure about this in most of the things he did.

 

One off the tee

Penalty

Shot to the fairway

Shot in the water

Drop (in the wrong place)

Plays from the wrong place (two shots???)

Corrects it, but makes an incorrect drop (one shot???)

Chips on

Putt

Putt

 

For 11. Having said that, I think DQ is probably the only real option for such blatant disregard for the rules (throwing his ball into the drop zone from ten yards away). NB I'm assuming that there is no penalty for throwing the ball away and using another one. It's possible that is another two shots for an incorrectly substituted ball, but I don't think so.

 

The 8 he signed for could only be correct if he took no penalty for playing from the wrong place and then subsequently no penalty for the incorrect drop, neither of which is correct, surely, so DQ is the right choice for signing for an incorrect score.

 

 

R&A Rules of Golf (Australia)

20-7. Playing from Wrong Place

a. General

A player has played from a wrong place if he makes a stroke at his

ball in play:

(i) on a part of the course where the Rules do not permit a stroke to

be played or a ball to be dropped or placed; or

(ii) when the Rules require a dropped ball to be re-dropped or a

moved ball to be replaced.

Note: For a ball played from outside the teeing ground or from a

wrong teeing ground – see Rule 11-4.

b. Match Play

If a player makes a stroke from a wrong place, he loses the hole.

c. Stroke Play

If a competitor makes a stroke from a wrong place, he incurs a penalty of

two strokes under the applicable Rule. He must play out the hole with the

ball played from the wrong place, without correcting his error, provided he

has not committed a serious breach (see Note 1).

If a competitor becomes aware that he has played from a wrong place and

believes that he may have committed a serious breach, he must, before

making a stroke on the next teeing ground, play out the hole with a second

ball played in accordance with the Rules. If the hole being played is the last

hole of the round, he must declare, before leaving the putting green, that he

will play out the hole with a second ball played in accordance with the

Rules.

If the competitor has played a second ball, he must report the facts to the

Committee before returning his score card; if he fails to do so,

he is disqualified.The Committee must determine whether the competitor

has committed a serious breach of the applicable Rule. If he has, the score

with the second ball counts and the competitor must add two penalty

strokes to his score with that ball. If the competitor has committed a serious

breach and has failed to correct it as outlined above, he is disqualified.

Note 1: A competitor is deemed to have committed a serious breach of

the applicable Rule if the Committee considers he has gained a significant

advantage as a result of playing from a wrong place.

Note 2: If a competitor plays a second ball under Rule 20-7c and it is

ruled not to count, strokes made with that ball and penalty strokes incurred

solely by playing that ball are disregarded. If the second ball is ruled to

count, the stroke made from the wrong place and any strokes subsequently

taken with the original ball including penalty strokes incurred solely by

playing that ball are disregarded.

Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong

place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not

permitted.

 

Substituted Ball;Wrong Ball

Rule 15

15-1. General

A player must hole out with the ball played from the teeing ground,

unless the ball is lost or out of bounds or the player substitutes another

ball, whether or not substitution is permitted (see Rule 15-2). If a

player plays a wrong ball, see Rule 15-3.

15-2. Substituted Ball

A player may substitute a ball when proceeding under a Rule that

permits the player to play, drop or place another ball in completing the

play of a hole.The substituted ball becomes the ball in play.

If a player substitutes a ball when not permitted to do so under the

Rules, that substituted ball is not a wrong ball; it becomes the ball in play.

If the mistake is not corrected as provided in Rule 20-6 and the player

makes a stroke at a wrongly substituted ball, he loses the hole in match

play or incurs a penalty of two strokes in stroke play under the

applicable Rule and, in stroke play, must play out the hole with the

substituted ball.

Exception: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a

wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when

not permitted.

(Playing from wrong place – see Rule 20-7)

15-3.Wrong Ball

a. Match Play

If a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball, he loses the hole.

If the wrong ball belongs to another player, its owner must place a ball

on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

If the player and opponent exchange balls during the play of a hole, the

first to make a stroke at a wrong ball loses the hole; when this cannot be

determined, the hole must be played out with the balls exchanged.

Exception: There is no penalty if a player makes a stroke at a wrong ball

that is moving in water in a water hazard. Any strokes made at a wrong

ball moving in water in a water hazard do not count in the player’s score.

The player must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or by

proceeding under the Rules.

76

Rule 15 / 16 77

b. Stroke Play

If a competitor makes a stroke or strokes at a wrong ball, he incurs a

penalty of two strokes.

The competitor must correct his mistake by playing the correct ball or

by proceeding under the Rules. If he fails to correct his mistake before

making a stroke on the next teeing ground or, in the case of the last

hole of the round, fails to declare his intention to correct his mistake

before leaving the putting green, he is disqualified.

Strokes made by a competitor with a wrong ball do not count in his

score. If the wrong ball belongs to another competitor, its owner must

place a ball on the spot from which the wrong ball was first played.

Exception: There is no penalty if a competitor makes a stroke at a

wrong ball that is moving in water in a water hazard. Any strokes made

at a wrong ball moving in water in a water hazard do not count in the

competitor’s score.

(Lie of ball to be placed or replaced altered – see Rule 20-3b)

(Spot not determinable – see Rule 20-3c)

 

I'm still confused LOL

[tjgus25]

sounds like your marker doesnt know the rules either from my understanding.

 

1 tee shot in water

2 drop

3 shot to water by green

4 drop

5 chip(from wrong drop)

6 penalty stroke

7 penalty stroke

8 (should have been played from where the ball lies) but he threw his ball and didnt play it from there so he should be DQ'ed

 

that is my interpritation of it.

[Ty_Webb]

maggot's post suggests that if he was in serious breach, then he should have played from the correct drop zone (which he did), but if it was not a serious breach (sounds very much like it wasn't) then he should have played it out. You could argue that when he redropped, he played from the wrong place again, incurring a further two stroke penalty. This seems harsh though. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but if the penalty is more severe for a non-serious breach than a serious breach, it feels like things aren't right.

 

That said, Decision 20-7c/2 specifically mentions a similar situation (this one's on a putting green, but I think it is still applicable:

 

Q: In stroke play, A mistakenly replaced his ball in front of B's

ball-marker (which was near A's ball-marker) and putted.

The ball came to rest about one foot from the hole. The

error was then discovered and A lifted his ball without

marking its position, placed it in front of his own ballmarker

and finished the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A: When A replaced his ball in front of B's ball-marker and

putted, he played from a wrong place and incurred a

penalty of two strokes; the ball was in play (Rule 20-7c).

When A then lifted his ball from where it lay about one

foot from the hole without marking its position and did not

replace it, he incurred the general penalty (two strokes) for a

breach of Rule 20-1 – see second paragraph of Rule 20-1.

Thus, A incurred a total penalty of four strokes. (Revised

– Formerly 20-7b/2)

 

So I think the answer is 13 (which incidentally isn't one of the poll options).

 

One off the tee

Penalty

Third to the fairway

Fourth in the lake

Penalty

Sixth from the wrong drop zone

Penalty

Penalty

Ninth from the right drop zone

Penalty

Penalty

Putt

Putt

 

For 13. Ouch. I assume that since he was playing from the wrong place the second time, it doesn't matter how the ball came to be in the wrong place, so the fact he threw it in there is not relevant (I think anyway).

[sdiver68]

Some leagues adopt a double par maximum rule. I'm not saying yours does or it's right, I'm just saying that would be an 8.

[golfismygame]

Some leagues adopt a double par maximum rule. I'm not saying yours does or it's right, I'm just saying that would be an 8.

 

If that had been the case, the OP would not have posted in the first lace, and would not have written "cheat"

[golfismygame]

The player does not have a score for the hole.

 

When he played a stroke from the wrong DZ, it didn't appear to be a serious breach ("There is an old drop zone that has been crossed out with the new one next to it.")

 

He should simply have played the ball as it lay on the putting green and should have played his 8'th stroke from there.

Instead he picked up his ball in play and played it from a wrong place (not the previous place) and because he did not replace the ball or play a stroke from the previous spot, he will be DQ'ed if he tee's off the next teeing ground.

[DaveyH]

Dq signing for an incorrect score.

Taking an incorrect drop.

Probably didnt declare the ball he was using after throwing his other in the water.

[Ty_Webb]

The player does not have a score for the hole.

 

When he played a stroke from the wrong DZ, it didn't appear to be a serious breach ("There is an old drop zone that has been crossed out with the new one next to it.")

 

He should simply have played the ball as it lay on the putting green and should have played his 8'th stroke from there.

Instead he picked up his ball in play and played it from a wrong place (not the previous place) and because he did not replace the ball or play a stroke from the previous spot, he will be DQ'ed if he tee's off the next teeing ground.

 

Unless the second one was a serious breach (highly unlikely since he played from a worse position) there shouldn't be a DQ at this point. DQ comes later for signing for an incorrect score

[Asleep]

Later in the day he was also seen standing with both feet together directly behind the ball in the rough and nothing was said.

 

I hate cheats.

I don't get this part.....???

 

edit: suggesting he tamped down the grass behind his ball?

[maggot]

Later in the day he was also seen standing with both feet together directly behind the ball in the rough and nothing was said.

 

I hate cheats.

I don't get this part.....???

 

edit: suggesting he tamped down the grass behind his ball?

 

 

Yep, improving his lie, the grass was way above the ball before he decided to stand there.

[maggot]

maggot's post suggests that if he was in serious breach, then he should have played from the correct drop zone (which he did), but if it was not a serious breach (sounds very much like it wasn't) then he should have played it out. You could argue that when he redropped, he played from the wrong place again, incurring a further two stroke penalty. This seems harsh though. Doesn't mean it's wrong, but if the penalty is more severe for a non-serious breach than a serious breach, it feels like things aren't right.

 

That said, Decision 20-7c/2 specifically mentions a similar situation (this one's on a putting green, but I think it is still applicable:

 

Q: In stroke play, A mistakenly replaced his ball in front of B's

ball-marker (which was near A's ball-marker) and putted.

The ball came to rest about one foot from the hole. The

error was then discovered and A lifted his ball without

marking its position, placed it in front of his own ballmarker

and finished the hole. What is the ruling?

 

A: When A replaced his ball in front of B's ball-marker and

putted, he played from a wrong place and incurred a

penalty of two strokes; the ball was in play (Rule 20-7c).

When A then lifted his ball from where it lay about one

foot from the hole without marking its position and did not

replace it, he incurred the general penalty (two strokes) for a

breach of Rule 20-1 – see second paragraph of Rule 20-1.

Thus, A incurred a total penalty of four strokes. (Revised

– Formerly 20-7b/2)

 

So I think the answer is 13 (which incidentally isn't one of the poll options).

 

One off the tee

Penalty

Third to the fairway

Fourth in the lake

Penalty

Sixth from the wrong drop zone

Penalty

Penalty

Ninth from the right drop zone

Penalty

Penalty

Putt

Putt

 

For 13. Ouch. I assume that since he was playing from the wrong place the second time, it doesn't matter how the ball came to be in the wrong place, so the fact he threw it in there is not relevant (I think anyway).

 

 

I think this is probably right. I would love a definitive answer though.

 

Being a 4 round club championship with both gross and nett results for A,B & C grades there is no maximum on a hole. This is the clubs second most prestigious event after the pro-am/tour event.

[goldwolf]

Only one way to stop him cheating, speak to the committee about what you saw asnd they'll keep and eye out for him. He'll come unstuck in the end as someonewho knows the rules inside out, and won't take any cheating, will play with him sooner of later.

[golfismygame]

The player does not have a score for the hole.

 

When he played a stroke from the wrong DZ, it didn't appear to be a serious breach ("There is an old drop zone that has been crossed out with the new one next to it.")

 

He should simply have played the ball as it lay on the putting green and should have played his 8'th stroke from there.

Instead he picked up his ball in play and played it from a wrong place (not the previous place) and because he did not replace the ball or play a stroke from the previous spot, he will be DQ'ed if he tee's off the next teeing ground.

 

Unless the second one was a serious breach (highly unlikely since he played from a worse position) there shouldn't be a DQ at this point. DQ comes later for signing for an incorrect score

 

I agree and stand corrected.

[jjj912]

Gee, I came up with 16 strokes. I'm assuming that there was not a serious breach of the rules because it doesn't appear that the player gained a significant advantage. Thus, there was no need for the player to hit from the correct drop zone. In any event, even if he thought he had committed a serious breach, he should have holded out with the first ball and played a second ball from the correct drop zone and let the Committee figure out which score to count.

 

1. tee shot into water

2. penalty for taking relief (26-1)

3. stroke onto fairway

4. stroke into water

5. penalty for taking relief (26-1)

6. stroke to green from old (i.e. incorrect) drop zone

7. penalty for playing from the wrong place (20-7)

8. penalty for playing from the wrong place

9. penalty for moving a ball at rest (18-2)

10. penalty for illegal substitution (15-2)

11. penalty for illegal substitution

12. stroke to green from new drop zone

13. penalty for playing from the wrong place (20-7)

14. penalty for playing from the wrong place

15. putt

16. putt

[Ty_Webb]

Gee, I came up with 16 strokes. I'm assuming that there was not a serious breach of the rules because it doesn't appear that the player gained a significant advantage. Thus, there was no need for the player to hit from the correct drop zone. In any event, even if he thought he had committed a serious breach, he should have holded out with the first ball and played a second ball from the correct drop zone and let the Committee figure out which score to count.

 

1. tee shot into water

2. penalty for taking relief (26-1)

3. stroke onto fairway

4. stroke into water

5. penalty for taking relief (26-1)

6. stroke to green from old (i.e. incorrect) drop zone

7. penalty for playing from the wrong place (20-7)

8. penalty for playing from the wrong place

9. penalty for moving a ball at rest (18-2)

10. penalty for illegal substitution (15-2)

11. penalty for illegal substitution

12. stroke to green from new drop zone

13. penalty for playing from the wrong place (20-7)

14. penalty for playing from the wrong place

15. putt

16. putt

 

I think the thing is that when you assign the penalty for playing from the wrong place (numbers 13 and 14 in your post), that expunges the penalty for illegal substitution and also for moving a ball at rest. At present, you have five penalty strokes for what was effectively one "error". See 20-7 Note 3, which states:

 

Note 3: If a player incurs a penalty for making a stroke from a wrong place, there is no additional penalty for substituting a ball when not permitted.

 

At least, this is where it says it in the R&A rules, I assume that the USGA one is identical. I think the same logic applies in the moving a ball at rest one. Once he picked that up, he should have replaced it under penalty of one stroke, but he didn't, he went and played it from the wrong place, so receives a two stroke penalty instead, not as well as. I think anyway.

[jjj912]

I thought about that, but a double snowman is more poetic than a 13. :) However, after reading the rules again, I do agree with not penalizing the player for the incorrect substitution. And I think you might be right about the one stroke penalty for moving the ball at rest.

[maggot]

Any rules officials on here to give a definite answer?

 

Thanks for the replies so far.

[DavePelz4]

Did he play the exact same ball type throughout the hole/round?

[mikec222]

Did he play the exact same ball type throughout the hole/round?

 

lol this isn't the tour i don't think the one ball rule would apply

[maggot]

:)