Rake in bunker

cb_golfer · June 14, 2009

can't remove if ball in bunker?

Playing with a guy whose a stickler for rules and his ball ends up in bunker. Teeth of rake was resting on sand. He picks rakes up before his bunker shot. Penalty?

jaskanski · June 14, 2009

Nope.

cb_golfer · June 14, 2009

Thanks. Rake is not a loose impediment.

Hawaiianhacker · June 15, 2009

so what if the ball is resting against the rake and moving the rake would cause the ball to move?

jaskanski · June 15, 2009

The ball may be replaced without penalty.

Sawgrass · June 15, 2009

so what if the ball is resting against the rake and moving the rake would cause the ball to move?

Mark it. Pick up the rake. If the ball moves, attempt to replace it on its original spot. If it repeatedly fails to stay put, move it to the nearest spot no closer to the hole where it will stay. Note that you can get screwed in this instance given one possiblilty, and I have! If the rake is on an uphill section of the bunker furthest from the hole, and the ball won't stay put in that furthest from the hole location, and it continually rolls down hill closer to the hole, you may wish you never moved the rake. In this instance you have to take a one stroke penalty and drop outside the bunker, keeping that point between you and the hole, which is a tough deal given the fact that if the rake wasn't there in the first place you'd be fine.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a good argument as to why rakes should be left outside the bunkers, where replacing a ball that moves is relatively problem free. But that's opinion, not fact.

Hawaiianhacker · June 15, 2009

^^^i thought rakes were SUPPOSED to be left outside of the bunker? (that's how I was taught) i just assume that the whoever leaves the rake in the bunker is either lazy or forgot to remove the rake. i've had a few balls saved from going into the bunker, thanks to a rake left lying outside the bunker.

alittleoverpar · June 15, 2009

^^^i thought rakes were SUPPOSED to be left outside of the bunker? (that's how I was taught) i just assume that the whoever leaves the rake in the bunker is either lazy or forgot to remove the rake. i've had a few balls saved from going into the bunker, thanks to a rake left lying outside the bunker.

Some courses request that you leave them in the bunker so they don't have to move them to mow. Personally I think this is a bad idea and they should be left outside the bunker.

golfismygame · June 16, 2009

The ball may be replaced without penalty.

If the ball moves when a movable obstruction is removed, the ball must be replaced.

The player doesn't have a choice here.

atlanta golfer · June 16, 2009

so what if the ball is resting against the rake and moving the rake would cause the ball to move?

Mark it. Pick up the rake. If the ball moves, attempt to replace it on its original spot. If it repeatedly fails to stay put, move it to the nearest spot no closer to the hole where it will stay. Note that you can get screwed in this instance given one possiblilty, and I have! If the rake is on an uphill section of the bunker furthest from the hole, and the ball won't stay put in that furthest from the hole location, and it continually rolls down hill closer to the hole, you may wish you never moved the rake. In this instance you have to take a one stroke penalty and drop outside the bunker, keeping that point between you and the hole, which is a tough deal given the fact that if the rake wasn't there in the first place you'd be fine.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a good argument as to why rakes should be left outside the bunkers, where replacing a ball that moves is relatively problem free. But that's opinion, not fact.

That doesn't sound quite correct. Can you cite the rule or ruling that this comes from?

blade_man · June 16, 2009

rake...out, pine cone...in, coke can...out, rock...in (unfortunately), my ball...in

Note: If the ball lies in a hazard, the player must not touch or move any loose impediment lying in or touching the same hazard - see Rule 13-4c.

Rule 24-1

Ball Lying Against Rake in Bunker

Q. My ball lies against a rake in a bunker, am I entitled to relief?

A. Yes. A bunker rake is a movable obstruction (see Definition of "Obstuctions") which the player may remove in accordance with Rule 24-1.

If the ball is touching the sand in the bunker (or another part of the course) then the rake may be removed in accordance with Rule 24-1a.

If the ball is resting solely on the rake (i.e. not also touching a part of the course) then Rule 24-1b permits the player to lift the ball, remove the rake, and drop the ball as nearly as possible to the spot directly beneath where the ball lay on the rake (but not nearer the hole).

You may also wish to refer to Decisions 13/5, 20-3d/2, and Misc./2.

Sawgrass · June 16, 2009

so what if the ball is resting against the rake and moving the rake would cause the ball to move?

Mark it. Pick up the rake. If the ball moves, attempt to replace it on its original spot. If it repeatedly fails to stay put, move it to the nearest spot no closer to the hole where it will stay. Note that you can get screwed in this instance given one possiblilty, and I have! If the rake is on an uphill section of the bunker furthest from the hole, and the ball won't stay put in that furthest from the hole location, and it continually rolls down hill closer to the hole, you may wish you never moved the rake. In this instance you have to take a one stroke penalty and drop outside the bunker, keeping that point between you and the hole, which is a tough deal given the fact that if the rake wasn't there in the first place you'd be fine.

As far as I'm concerned, this is a good argument as to why rakes should be left outside the bunkers, where replacing a ball that moves is relatively problem free. But that's opinion, not fact.

That doesn't sound quite correct. Can you cite the rule or ruling that this comes from?

USGA Decision 20-3d/2 covers this exact situation:

20-3d/2 Ball in Bunker Moves Closer to Hole When Obstruction Removed and Ball Will Not Remain at Rest When

Replaced; All Other Parts of Bunker Are Nearer Hole

Q. A ball came to rest against a movable obstruction, a rake, in a bunker. When the rake was moved the ball rolled nearer the hole. According to Rule 24-1, the ball had to be replaced. Due to the slope and the fact that the sand was firm, the ball, when replaced, rolled closer to the hole.

Under Rule 20-3d, if a ball will not come to rest on the spot where it originally lay, it must be placed at the nearest spot not nearer the hole where it can be placed at rest. The spot where the ball originally lay was farther from the hole than any other part of the bunker. Thus, there was nowhere to place the ball at rest in the bunker that was not nearer the hole. What is the proper procedure if:

1. The only way the ball would remain at rest at the spot where it lay would be to press it lightly into the sand?

2. The sand is so hard that it is impossible to replace the ball?

A. There is nothing in the Rules permitting a player to press his ball lightly into the sand or ground to make it remain at rest. Accordingly, in either case, since the player could not place the ball in conformity with the Rules, he should proceed under the stroke-and-distance option of the unplayable ball Rule (Rule 28a) or, in equity (Rule 1-4), drop the ball, under penalty of one stroke, outside the bunker, keeping the point where the ball lay directly between the hole and the spot on which the ball is dropped.

The same principle would apply if a player is proceeding under any Rule and the ball will not come to rest in the bunker at a spot not nearer to the hole than the appropriate reference point.

atlanta golfer · June 16, 2009

The "equity" rule 1-4 is what got me. I guess that covers just about anything that is not in the rules, that people believe is fair.

Because an unplayable ball in a bunker cannot be dropped outside the bunker, unless it goes back to the original place it was played and you take stroke and distance.

Just this past weekend, I got stuck under the back lip of a bunker, within a foot of a high back lip, which made it impossible to take a good swing at the ball. I ended up blading the ball way over the green. I couldn't play backwards out of the bunker because there was a hazard directly behind me. I would have taken an unplayable but there really was no place else in the bunker to go, that was not nearer the hole. In retrospect, I probably should have taken stroke and distance instead of trying for the miracle shot, which turned out badly. Or else just wasted a stroke and somehow chipped it to a more central place in the bunker where I could take a normal swing.

bigred90gt · June 16, 2009

^^^i thought rakes were SUPPOSED to be left outside of the bunker? (that's how I was taught) i just assume that the whoever leaves the rake in the bunker is either lazy or forgot to remove the rake. i've had a few balls saved from going into the bunker, thanks to a rake left lying outside the bunker.

I was taught just the opposite, and have seen alot of courses with notes in the carts stating to leave the rakes in the bunkers.

Sawgrass · June 16, 2009

^^^i thought rakes were SUPPOSED to be left outside of the bunker? (that's how I was taught) i just assume that the whoever leaves the rake in the bunker is either lazy or forgot to remove the rake. i've had a few balls saved from going into the bunker, thanks to a rake left lying outside the bunker.

I was taught just the opposite, and have seen alot of courses with notes in the carts stating to leave the rakes in the bunkers.

Not only are we not clear on how this should be done, the USGA isn't particularly definitive either -- even in its decision:

Misc./2 Whether Rakes Should Be Placed In or Outside Bunkers

Q. Should rakes be placed in or outside bunkers?

A. There is not a perfect answer for the position of rakes, but on balance it is felt there is less likelihood of an advantage or disadvantage to the player if rakes are placed outside of bunkers.

It may be argued that there is more likelihood of a ball being deflected into or kept out of a bunker if the rake is placed outside the bunker. It could also be argued that if the rake is in the bunker it is most unlikely that the ball will be deflected out of the bunker.

However, in practice, players who leave rakes in bunkers frequently leave them at the side which tends to stop a ball rolling into the flat part of the bunker, resulting in a much more difficult shot than would otherwise have been the case. This is most prevalent at a course where the bunkers are small. When the ball comes to rest on or against a rake in the bunker and the player must proceed under Rule 24-1, it may not be possible to replace the ball on the same spot or find a spot in the bunker which is not nearer the hole — see Decision 20-3d/2.

If rakes are left in the middle of the bunker, the only way to position them is to throw them into the bunker and this causes damage to the surface. Also, if a rake is in the middle of a large bunker, it is either not used or the player is obliged to rake a large area of the bunker, resulting in unnecessary delay.

Therefore, after considering all these aspects, it is recommended that rakes should be left outside bunkers in areas where they are least likely to affect the movement of the ball.

Ultimately, it is a matter for the Committee to decide where it wishes rakes to be placed.

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Ah, the Committee. I'd like to meet those guys!