Sandbaggers in club tournaments

[manicgolf]

My solution has me very much at peace.

I refuse to make a "donation" to golfers that cheat.

I no longer enter tournament play, and for each upcoming tournament I let the club know that it is due to rampant sandbagging. In my opinion, incorrect score entry in the over 5 hdcp is at pandemic level.

Again this past weekend I looked at the scores posted at my home club for an open tourney (which only attracted about 45 players even though District points were available for gross scores) and I saw no less than 8 players shoot 8 under net for 18 holes. Does anyone else see a problem here?

 

I realize I am in the minority here. However, if enough people would engage in a like protest, then in 18 months the club system would have no choice but to properly address the problem due to lost revenue.

From what I see the average individual stroke play tournament entry level at area courses (200 mile radius) is down considerably from 10 years ago.

[CowtownTexas]

Thanks for all the replies as there are definitely some good ideas here. We do have a handicap committee, but I think it needs to be more effective. At this point, the only real decisions made by that committee dealt with the recent re-handicapping of our course after a remodel.

 

I like the idea of having a qualifying round or two, then flighting from there. Of course, it's not perfect either as I know we had a player this weekend lose his swing for two rounds, post two really high scores in the mid 90's, then follow it up with a score around 80 (which is closer to his normal scores, if not a bit below).

 

I've heard of one local club that has a handicap committee that is supposed to be secretive, but since I know who two members of that committee are and I'm not even a member there, I question it's abilities.

 

Someone described players that post every round, but lay-off strokes alot of the time. Those are the types of guys that are our biggest problem. The types who might turn some bogies into triples when they're out of a bet. Or "miss" some 4 footers when their partner has them covered. You know the type.

 

The argument that flight winners don't matter isn't valid on several levels. For one, even a 25 handicapper wants to win and the great thing about handicaps is that people can compete against guys of similar skill levels. As someone who has been everything from a 25 down to an 8 handicap, I know I liked the competitions at all levels. At the same time, I know a guy I'd consider a sandbagger who has a 0 handicap, but probably plays to a +3 or better. It can happen at all levels.

 

Also, we use our club championship as qualifying for some inter-club matches later in the year. Making this team is a pretty big deal as we have matches with some pretty well known clubs. Having been on one of those trips, I can tell you that it is a big motivating factor.

 

We have both a medal and match play championship. The medal was this past weekend and the match play will be later this summer. The flight winners of each tournament make the travelling squad for the inter-clubs.

 

With that in mind, I just wanted to make some suggestions to our handicap committee for possible solutions to our problems. Again, thank you all that offered opinions. Some good ideas here certainly.

[CowtownTexas]

My solution has me very much at peace.

I refuse to make a "donation" to golfers that cheat.

I no longer enter tournament play, and for each upcoming tournament I let the club know that it is due to rampant sandbagging. In my opinion, incorrect score entry in the over 5 hdcp is at pandemic level.

Again this past weekend I looked at the scores posted at my home club for an open tourney (which only attracted about 45 players even though District points were available for gross scores) and I saw no less than 8 players shoot 8 under net for 18 holes. Does anyone else see a problem here?

 

I realize I am in the minority here. However, if enough people would engage in a like protest, then in 18 months the club system would have no choice but to properly address the problem due to lost revenue.

From what I see the average individual stroke play tournament entry level at area courses (200 mile radius) is down considerably from 10 years ago.

 

That's what I see as well. At our course, we have a pretty high slope rating (139) and a very high course rating (75.2 with a par of 70). Even from the mid tees, we're at 72.0 with a slope of 133. That means someone shooting under their handicap for 3 rounds has really pulled off an amazing feat.

 

It's also funny to me that it tends to be the group with handicaps 12 and above that have the most issues, though I've seen it with lower handicaps as well. In several cases, the people I typically hear complain the most could possibly be upset they got out-cheated rather than cheated. I know I had that feeling a couple of times yesterday while enjoying my post-round beers.

 

Of course, there's always the old saying that it's much "better to be the one being complained about than the one complaining" (cleaned that up some for this family forum). I guess it's all a matter of perspective.

[takafam]

As a new tournament player I really have been discouraged by all the people complaining of sandbaggers as it seems to me people are all too willing to say sandbagger as if it is a general excuse of why they played bad. The people on the hdcp committee need to keep their comments to themselves and not let every little complaint be common knowledge about who they are looking into for possible sandbagging.

 

Don't get me wrong I know some people's handicaps do not really reflect their true ability and some people may or may not have created this on purpose. I just think that we as golfers need to be careful not to wrongly accuse others of sandbagging.

 

The hdcp committee needs to be smart enought to figure out who is sandbagging and who isn't. I think they should look at all the scores in each flight, but I think anything discussed in the committee should stay in the committee unless they are very confident about a violation. If a golfers handicap is questioned and it is determined there is nothing wrong then I also feel everyone should be informed and not just dropped allowing everyone in the clubhouse to continue thinking they are a cheat. I truly believe in INNOCENT UNTIL PROVEN QUILTY not when some sore losser gets beat.

 

I also think that everyone boycotting the tournaments as a point will do nothing for good for golf, its like the kid in grade school that gets mad and takes his football home cuz he got tackled and ruins the game for everyone.

[hbear]

Also, we use our club championship as qualifying for some inter-club matches later in the year. Making this team is a pretty big deal as we have matches with some pretty well known clubs. Having been on one of those trips, I can tell you that it is a big motivating factor.

 

We have both a medal and match play championship. The medal was this past weekend and the match play will be later this summer. The flight winners of each tournament make the travelling squad for the inter-clubs.

 

This is the first time I've heard of "interclub" competition with flights.

At our course (and course I've played at before) the interclub squad is a collection of the "best" golfers at the course and they play the "best" golfers at the other courses.

 

We determine our interclub team by placement in the previous year's club championship (top 3 low gross are excempt from qualifiying for the following year) and via a 2 day qualifier, where the rest of the team is selected from (top low gross scores until team is made).

 

Wouldn't rewarding "flight winners" a spot of the interclub team just make sandbagging more prevelant?

E.g. Bob is really a 2 but "manages his cap so that his cap is 8" then cleans up during the flight competition ensureing a spot of the squad.....where he then goes undefeated because he mops the floor against the other teams "8" cap?

 

But then again this whole discussion about sandbagging re-enforces why I ONLY compete in gross score competitions.

[fishlips723]

I could be wrong, but every single club I've been a member of only has ONE club champion, and that is the player with the lowest GROSS score.

 

Everything else is flighted according to handicap, and there are "flight winners".

So if you are playing in the 3rd flight...it doesn't matter how low you shoot, you are only competing against the 3rd flight players.

 

Only the first and championship flights are eligible to be club champ because those are the only groups teeing off from 7000 yards.

Thats awful,your club has no respect for the handicap system and lesser golfers and I find that reprehensible.

 

The handicap system is there to allow all golfers to compete and not allowing the high handicappers to participate is not a job of a golf club in my opinion. Having flighted tourneys are fine but the club must acknowledge every ones achievements and not just brand them as cheaters or second hand citizens.

 

We have three flights in our golf course,Championship flight, A flight and a B flight.Championship flight is all gross and everyone can participate in it.The A flight is from 0-14 and B is everything above that;its match-play after 36 holes of qualifying.

 

But we acknowledge ALL of our Champions and not just the pros's son or the local collage kid who shoots a 70 in his sleep because he hits it 325 and coming in with a half a PW on par 4s or a 7 iron to all the par 5s.

 

I am the prez of our Thursday night Menes league and ever since I took over we changed to "league only handicaps".In another words,we only keep your handicap based on what you shoot in the league.We dont care how you do on Fridays playing with your wife.

 

I am a true believer that every club should keep Tournament Only Handicaps.And not because I think some players necessarily cheat,but some people perform better and focus more when they are playing for something of importance then they are playing Friday afternoons with their wives.The reverse is also true,there are alot of people that dont play as well in a tourney as they do playing with their wives.

 

As I told everyone in our league,I dont care how you do anytime else,I am only concern with what you shoot in the league.

 

By the way,you would be surprised how many people went from being A and B players,to C or D divisions after they were rated by how they performed in the league.

[dpb5031]

We police our own also by maintaining our own point quotas based off of the Stableford scoring system for our regular "group" play. Like you, what a player shoots playing with his wife on Tuesday afternoon has no bearing. We average 5 of each player's 10 most recent Stableford scores to come up with the quota. It gets adjusted every week on Monday. If a player goes out and gives up (tanking their score) it gets adjusted to 80% of their current quota. This is our sandbagger protection clause.

 

The Stableford system works well to indicate a player's true ability because it measures their point production, with a value of zero for anything greater than a double bogie. There is no sandbagging benefit to the player for making big numbers.

 

What's interesting is that some players in our group have USGA handicaps of 13 or 14 but have quotas in our group of 26 points. This would be more reflective of a 10 handicap. I attribute this to the flaws (and easy manipulation) of equitable stroke control in the USGA system.

 

e.g. A 9 handicap and a 10 handicap could both go out and score 26 Stableford points but post entirely different scores. In an otherwise identical round the 9 handicap would have to post a 10 over par 81, (our course is par 71), and the 10 handicap would be able to post 91 due to ESC. (This is assuming both players made 7 on all 5 par 3s and par on every other hole.) (ESC allows the 10 HC or higher take a 7 on any hole.)

[CowtownTexas]

Also, we use our club championship as qualifying for some inter-club matches later in the year. Making this team is a pretty big deal as we have matches with some pretty well known clubs. Having been on one of those trips, I can tell you that it is a big motivating factor.

 

We have both a medal and match play championship. The medal was this past weekend and the match play will be later this summer. The flight winners of each tournament make the travelling squad for the inter-clubs.

 

This is the first time I've heard of "interclub" competition with flights.

At our course (and course I've played at before) the interclub squad is a collection of the "best" golfers at the course and they play the "best" golfers at the other courses.

 

We determine our interclub team by placement in the previous year's club championship (top 3 low gross are excempt from qualifiying for the following year) and via a 2 day qualifier, where the rest of the team is selected from (top low gross scores until team is made).

 

Wouldn't rewarding "flight winners" a spot of the interclub team just make sandbagging more prevelant?

E.g. Bob is really a 2 but "manages his cap so that his cap is 8" then cleans up during the flight competition ensureing a spot of the squad.....where he then goes undefeated because he mops the floor against the other teams "8" cap?

 

But then again this whole discussion about sandbagging re-enforces why I ONLY compete in gross score competitions.

 

 

We have both a gross and a net team when we play interclub tournaments. That's pretty common at most clubs I'm aware of.

 

Our flights basically broke down this way:

 

Gross

5-8 Handicaps

9-12

13-15

16-18

18+

 

One thing I don't like that we do is that you get strokes within your flight based on the lowest handicap. So a 12 is getting 3 strokes per day on a 9.

 

One thing I've thought would be a good idea is that any person that wins their flight would automatically have to move up a flight the next year, regardless of their handicap. Also, make everyone play gross within the flight. It would definitely make it tough for someone to win every year.

 

I would love to be able to play in the championship or gross flight. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work to get my game to that level and even if I did, I don't think I have the talent. The majority of the guys who finish well in our gross flight played college golf at the least and a few were pro's of different levels at some point in their lives.

[fishlips723]

I would love to be able to play in the championship or gross flight. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work to get my game to that level and even if I did, I don't think I have the talent. The majority of the guys who finish well in our gross flight played college golf at the least and a few were pro's of different levels at some point in their lives.

 

And thats why at Club Championships you must recognize all the winners in each flight and not just the Gross players who play the course at 7000 yards as the other post had mentioned.

Stafford point system does work very well and with all due respect to Dean Knuth ( the inventor of the handicap system for usga),I dont think he could have calculated in his formula that some people are less then honest.

[Williams5203]

My club uses only gross scores for 36 holes, then flights competitors based on those scores. All scores for all rounds are Gross. The only way to sandbag in this manner is to purposely play poorly to get into a lower flight, and in the past the pro has placed a good player (A Known 5) who shot an 85, into the second flight where he ends up down by 10 shots to start the day... so much for trying to sandbag. It's nice having a pro with a back bone

[hbear]

I would love to be able to play in the championship or gross flight. Unfortunately, I don't have the time to work to get my game to that level and even if I did, I don't think I have the talent. The majority of the guys who finish well in our gross flight played college golf at the least and a few were pro's of different levels at some point in their lives.

 

And thats why at Club Championships you must recognize all the winners in each flight and not just the Gross players who play the course at 7000 yards as the other post had mentioned.

Stafford point system does work very well and with all due respect to Dean Knuth ( the inventor of the handicap system for usga),I dont think he could have calculated in his formula that some people are less then honest.

 

We do recognize all flight winners...but you can't expect to have the 15 caps playing a par 71 from 7000 yards can you? How fun would that be for them....and to add HOW can you crown a "club champ" when somebody gets to play from a closer set of tees....

To add, what is the point of flighting if you allow somebody from the 3rd flight to "win" the second flight?

 

From my understanding, NO higher capper has complained that they do not get to play from 7000 yards.... and NO higher capper has suggested that our club champ be crowned by net score either....

 

Club champs are for the lowest total gross score over multiple days and played from the championship tees....I don't see what the problem is with that system?

[kurob]

It's nice having a pro with a back bone

This is really the answer. If the head pro has enough folks behind him (and any good one will), just about anything can be dealt with properly...specifically sandbagging and pace of play.

[fishlips723]

We do recognize all flight winners...but you can't expect to have the 15 caps playing a par 71 from 7000 yards can you? How fun would that be for them....and to add HOW can you crown a "club champ" when somebody gets to play from a closer set of tees....

To add, what is the point of flighting if you allow somebody from the 3rd flight to "win" the second flight?

 

From my understanding, NO higher capper has complained that they do not get to play from 7000 yards.... and NO higher capper has suggested that our club champ be crowned by net score either....

 

Club champs are for the lowest total gross score over multiple days and played from the championship tees....I don't see what the problem is with that system?

 

 

Not for a second did I say that mid to high handicappers should play from the 7000 yrd tees.I am actually against all these ridiculously difficult golf courses.I think they are damaging the game by turning people off to golf, but that's an argument for another day.What I am saying is simply this,most of us are just armatures and the handicap system is there for our enjoyment.Strokes are there so ever one can compete and not sit on the side lines when the big boys play.

 

At our golf course we have 3 flights as I had already mentioned in a earlier post and how they break down.So on the wall we have a plaque that credits all the winners:

 

In the Championship flight the winner is so and so

 

In the A flight the winner is so and so.

 

In the B flight is so and so

 

They all get the plaque and are recognized for their achievement.Of course the guy who wins the gross is recognized as the big fish but be honest with you,at our course,the guy who has won it 4 out of 5 years is so long that he is really playing to a par 68 right of the bat.We have 2 par 5s that are over 550 yards and he hits no more then a 5 iron on his second shot.

 

I think the other 2 divisions have it tough.Its usually is a tough battle that goes to 20,21st hole (again its match play after 36 hole qualifying).

 

Now you want to tell me that they dont deserve anything because they werent born with a club in their hands or after working 50 hours providing for their families, they dont have any time to practice.

[hbear]

WHERE did I mention "Flight winners should not be recognized?".....perhaps I missed that point in my own posts?

 

I SAID that we DO recognize flight winners....but 2nd, 3rd, etc. flight players aren't eligible for the big prize because they are playing from closer tees. To add, sandbagging isn't as prevelent because you are ONLY competing vs your flight. Some other posters mentioned "low net" champion...which in my opinion just opens the floodgates for sandbagging. Winning the all round "low net" is much more prestigious than winning the "3rd flight."

 

YOU are the one that said the following about our club.

"Thats awful,your club has no respect for the handicap system and lesser golfers and I find that reprehensible."

 

Yet here is what I actually posted.

I could be wrong, but every single club I've been a member of only has ONE club champion, and that is the player with the lowest GROSS score.

 

Everything else is flighted according to handicap, and there are "flight winners". So if you are playing in the 3rd flight...it doesn't matter how low you shoot, you are only competing against the 3rd flight players.

 

Only the first and championship flights are eligible to be club champ because those are the only groups teeing off from 7000 yards.

 

Again I still don't wee where the problem is.

I suppose it would be nice to include the 2nd and 3rd flights eligible for the big prize...but it's be stupid to ask them to tee off from 7000 yards. And lets be honest, how many 8+cappers do you know that can go out and shoot multiple sub par rounds from 7000 yards in tournament conditions? So it's really a non issue.

Perhaps our club is different than most as we have A LOT of VERY low cappers at our course. I guess easily 40 players that are sub 4 caps. With a number in the +3 to 1 range.

[fishlips723]

Perhaps our club is different than most as we have A LOT of VERY low cappers at our course. I guess easily 40 players that are sub 4 caps. With a number in the +3 to 1 range.

 

Lets agree to disagree,we can argue this point til the cows come home.

 

I am impressed that you guys have 40 players that are between +3 to 1 that participate in majority of tournaments.

 

As far as what the original post goes and getting rid of the sandbaggers,its a mute point and you will never get rid of them.I bet there were baggers 800 years ago in Scotland and there will be baggers in Scottland and every where else 800 years from now.

Why do you think the book on the rules of golf is thicker then the bible? :drinks: