Posting Match Play T Scores

[DaveLeeNC]

How to do it equitably - how do others do it

Our Men's Golf Association Match Play tourney is coming up and the issue of posting Match Play as T-scores will most certainly raise its head again (our practice is for the 'Committee' to post the scores).

But this is not a straight-forward question since you might well (for example) be conceded a number of 5 foot putts (because you are putting for par and your opponent is lying 6 buried in a bunker). It isn't reasonable (for most golfers in our group) to 'assume' that all of these mythical 5 footers were holed out. And, of course, it goes beyond just short/conceded putts.

But our (relatively large - over 600 golfers) group doesn't have a uniform understanding of the USGA Handicap Rules for 'scores on holes started but not completed' (unfinished holes and conceded strokes - Handicap Rule 4-1). We try to explain it in the instructions to the competitors, but it is often not understood or followed (it would appear to me based on arguments that I have heard in the past).

I'm curious as to how other 'tournament committees' running Match Play tournaments deal with this issue. I have always felt that posting Match Play results as T-scores was iffy at best, given how often you don't generate a 'real score', but I am clearly in the minority on this.

Thanks.

dave

[Sawgrass]

I completely understand your concern. All I have to offer is that I've played in several match play tournaments at a prominent club in which the head pro decided not to have people post their match play scores. And this is a club where the pros take the unusual action of posting your stroke-play tournament scores for you -- so they're clearly not loose about posting issues.

[DaveLeeNC]

Thanks for the comments, Sawgrass. I tend to agree with the Head Pro that you referenced.

It is interesting that somewhere in the RoG is a statement that prohibits combining a Match Play and a Stroke Play competition "because the rules are so different" - yet that is what you end up doing when you post a Match Play score (scoring Match Play while simultaneously calculating a Stroke Play score).

dave

[mark m]

Dave: Our men's club does post 'T' scores for match play competitions. As you probably know, you don't have to post T scores for match play comps, but it is recommended by the USGA. Here are the Score posting policies for my club:



[center][b]Scoring Policies for 2010 Match Play[/b][/center]
[size="3"][/size]

[list][*]Match Play rules, including the correct procedure for allocating handicap strokes, are listed in the Roster Book and on the Men's Club website.[*]All Match Play competitors are required to play at least 13 holes, even if the match is over before the 13[sup]th[/sup] hole is played, so that an 18 hole score can be posted by the Handicap Committee. (Rules and procedures are listed next.)[*]Competitors are encouraged to keep your opponents score during play. [*]Return a scorecard, signed & attested by both sides, with the date of the match, to the pro shop after play. [*]Do not post your own score. The Committee will post a 'T' score for all competitors. [*]Failure to return a scorecard or to compete under the rules may result in a handicap adjustment by the Handicap Committee and/or action from the Board of Directors.[/list]

The Applicable Rules for Recording Match Play Scores:

[b]Unplayed Holes.[/b]

If 13 or more holes are played, the player must post an 18-hole score. Scores for unplayed holes must be recorded as par plus any handicap strokes that the player is entitled to receive on the unplayed holes. (For this purpose, handicap = full course handicap.)

[b][color="#377c2a"]Q:[/color] [/b]In match play, a player wins the match on the 16th hole. The player plays the remaining two holes. What score may the player post for these two holes?

[color="#377c2a"][b]A:[/b] [/color]The player should post the actual scores on the post-match holes. If the committee believes that the player is inflating hole scores on the post-match holes, it may apply provisions of Section [url="http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_08.html"]8[/url].

[b]Unfinished Holes or Conceded Strokes. [/b]

A player who starts, but does not complete a hole or is conceded a stroke must record for handicap purposes the [u]most likely score[/u]. The most likely score consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in his best judgment, the number of strokes that the player would need to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The most likely score may not exceed the player's Equitable Stroke Control limit and should be preceded by an "X."

There is no limit to the number of unfinished holes a player may have in a round, provided that failure to finish is not for the purpose of handicap manipulation.

[b]Example: [/b]A and B are playing a match. On a hole on which neither player receives a handicap stroke, A has holed out in 4; B has a 30-foot putt for a 5. B has lost the hole, and picks up. B records X-6 on the scorecard because 6 is B's [url="http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_02.html#mostLikelyScore"]most likely score[/url].

[b][color="#377c2a"]Q:[/color][/b] Section [url="http://www.usga.org/playing/handicaps/manual/sections/section_04.html"]4[/url], adjusting hole scores, says that a player who starts but does not complete a hole records for handicap purposes the "most likely score." This score must not exceed the player's maximum number under Equitable Stroke Control. Clarify the meaning of most likely score.

[b][color="#377c2a"]A:[/color][/b] Most likely score is a judgment that each player must make based on the player's own game. It consists of the number of strokes already taken plus, in the player's best judgment, the number of strokes needed to complete the hole from that position more than half the time. The player must evaluate each situation based on what the player can reasonably expect to score.

Finally, the player compares the most likely score to the maximum permitted under Equitable Stroke Control and enters the lower of the two. For example, if most likely score is 8 but the applicable ESC maximum is 7, the player enters a score, for handicap purposes, of X-7.

[DaveLeeNC]

Mark, thanks for the info.

dave

[mark m]

Dave: as you can see above, we make the competitors play at least 13 holes - otherwise we can't post a T-score for them as it is prohibited to post 9 holes scores as 'T' scores.

We done this for 2 years. It was put in by the Board of Directors because of the complaining by competitors of low scores posted against them by opponents (accusations of sandbagging).

Last year we had a couple of incidents in partners match play. Both times a team won on the 12th or 13th hole and then - of course - they finish the round by "maxing out" (ESC) on a number of the remaining holes so that their posted T score won't kill them on the next revision. In both instances one player from each team was playing considerably better than his hdcp. When confronted about it - the excuses just fly.
This is a tough one - because if you decide to do it - then you have to post (and hope the guys follow) rules similiar to the ones listed above.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.

[sigmapete1]

Seems like it would make more sense to either (1) not post match play or (2) take the average over/under par of the holes completed when actually trying to win a match and apply it to the holes that "don't count." Using holes recorded after you've already won or lost a match is just asking for manipulation especially when T scores carry more weight.

Shame that it's so difficult to find an honest match involving handicaps. There's always someone with such low self esteem that they have to try and manipulate the system.

[Newby]

Possibly one reason Europe doesn't include match play as handicap qualifying scores.
The problem with taking matches for handicaps is that the player isn't always trying to get his best score on a hole. If his opponent is in trouble but isn't conceding, the player is just going to go steady. Probably the lower the handicap the more likely.

[Mr. Herbert]

[quote name='mark m' timestamp='1270944961' post='2372489']
Dave: as you can see above, we make the competitors play at least 13 holes - otherwise we can't post a T-score for them as it is prohibited to post 9 holes scores as 'T' scores.

We done this for 2 years. It was put in by the Board of Directors because of the complaining by competitors of low scores posted against them by opponents (accusations of sandbagging).

Last year we had a couple of incidents in partners match play. Both times a team won on the 12th or 13th hole and then - of course - they finish the round by "maxing out" (ESC) on a number of the remaining holes so that their posted T score won't kill them on the next revision. In both instances one player from each team was playing considerably better than his hdcp. When confronted about it - the excuses just fly.
This is a tough one - because if you decide to do it - then you have to post (and hope the guys follow) rules similiar to the ones listed above.

Good Luck with whatever you decide to do.
[/quote]

I don't think it's unreasonable that once the match is decided, a player stops grinding and might lose some interest and have a few blowup holes. While there are of course sandbaggers, I think too often people look for sandbagging where it doesn't exist.

[DaveLeeNC]

WOW - a 5 year old thread that I started has resurfaced. Most interesting.

For the record the USGA has been most clear in what they communicated to me - "Tournament Level" Match Play Scores should be posted as T scores. So be it (whether I agree or not).

Again for the record I was never questioning whether match play scores should be excluded from posting (under the USGA system which accepts a broad range of scores that, vs. the RoG, are iffy). I was simply questioning whether they 'had enough value' to be posted as scores with 'more impact' on your index vs. non T scores. IOW, should these really be T Scores.

From a 'posted score perspective' I view match play results as having 'very low quality'. In the extreme you can play a match, follow the Rules of Golf TO THE LETTER, and

- never hole out on a single hole
- not even tee off on 5 holes (in principle it could be more extreme but lets be reasonable here)

Yet somehow this score should have more (potential) impact on your index than the 18 holes that you played last Saturday with your buddies.

That was my question. The USGA has answered that question. And life goes on.

dave

ps. The biggest, very likely to occur issue is 'short putt consessions'. In a Match Play event it might be the norm to have 7 (to pick a reasonable number) putts from 2 to 5 feet not completed (as in holed out). This would be because the putt was conceded or you were lying 4 and your opponent was lying 2 at the same distance. In all cases (for me) the mostly likely outcome is 'I make the putt'. The most likely outcome across all these putts in this (hardly unreasonable round) is I DO NOT make ALL of those putts. Yet we are going to give this 'assumed outcome' more weight against the player's index than other rounds.

That is my objection, the USGA has made their statement, and life goes on

[Sawgrass]

While acknowledging all of the valid points above, if the rule forbade you from posting important match play scores -- that sounds like "sandbagger heaven."

[DaveLeeNC]

[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1427292188' post='11212201']
While acknowledging all of the valid points above, if the rule forbade you from posting important match play scores -- that sounds like "sandbagger heaven."
[/quote]

Hi, SG. I am headed out to play (I would assume yet another round of golf which will be both enjoyable and result in yet another miserable score).

But the question (as I intended it when I posted it like 5 years ago) was NOT about posting these scores. It was about whether (or not) they had 'enough value' to be posted as T Scores.

Maybe I don't understand your post, but ....

dave

[Sawgrass]

[quote name='DaveLeeNC' timestamp='1427292799' post='11212257']
[quote name='Sawgrass' timestamp='1427292188' post='11212201']
While acknowledging all of the valid points above, if the rule forbade you from posting important match play scores -- that sounds like "sandbagger heaven."
[/quote]

Hi, SG. I am headed out to play (I would assume yet another round of golf which will be both enjoyable and result in yet another miserable score).

But the question (as I intended it when I posted it like 5 years ago) was NOT about posting these scores. It was about whether (or not) they had 'enough value' to be posted as T Scores.

Maybe I don't understand your post, but ....

dave
[/quote]

What I'm saying is that there is a value in having match play scores (which might very well meet the standard of a "T score" competition) posted, and if the tournaments are sufficiently important, posted as T scores. Some earlier posts made the point that there is virtue in not posting match play scores at all. While those reasons are valid IMO, there is a plus and minus to that policy. If a sandbagger knows that match play scores will never be posted, he might very well reserve his cheating to match play events from which he won't be saddled with either a low posted score or a low posted T score.

[DaveLeeNC]

SG, got it. Thanks.

dave