Ben Hogan fans..good news!

[RWEEKS]

Tom,

 

If your book is a sucess (which i believe it will ), will you follow it up with an instructional dvd on the

material you cover in your book ?

 

I am more of a visual learner, and it is much easyer for me to learn from watching a dvd than reading

about it.

[Ducky]

Hi Tom,

 

Thanks for taking the time to reply to my questions.

 

Obviously, I don't want you to give away all the secrets that are contained within your book, but I do have a few more queries in relation to the grip and how it influences the swing.

 

Ben Hogan obviously thought the grip was of great importance considering it was the first fundamental that he addressed in the 'Five Fundamentals' book.

 

I have been fighting an over-the-top (out-to-in) downswing, which may not allow me to provide the most accurate feedback. However, I found having such a weak grip did not allow my wrists to release naturally, resulting in push slices due to an open clubface at impact.

 

On one hand, it does eliminate the left side of the course, on the other hand it does open up the door to huge misses to the right. I guess I am curious as to what Ben Hogan believed to be the correct way to implement his "secret".

 

Would I be close to the correct way of thinking if I thought that the aim was to open the clubface on the backswing (i.e. roll the arms/wrists clockwise) and close the clubface as far as possible on the downswing (i.e. roll the arms/wrists counter-clockwise), with the weak grip in place to prevent over releasing the wrists?

 

I am just reiterating what I said above, but hopefully you could provide some clarification. If not, I will have to be patient and wait for the book!

 

:help:

 

Jeffy,

 

Unfortunately, I live in a country town that has two teaching professionals. The first I have tried and have not been satisfied with the results. The second I am having a lesson with on Monday, so I'll wait and see how that turns out.

 

I can always travel down to the city (which is around three hours away), but it is quite inconvenient and I do not know of any teaching professionals who dedicate their teaching to the one-plane method.

[jeffy]

OK, then. Have you posted your questions on the Jim Hardy site? My New York teacher John Hobbins posts all the time, as does Hall of Famer Carol Mann (screen name lpgahf9, who I've also worked with, in Houston) and Jim from time to time.

 

I'll be real interested in the "little twist" move of Tom's. Hardy recommends against fanning the club open early because it can cause the clubhead to get behind the hands too early, cause the left arm to come off the chest, can lower the right elbow and flatten the shoulders. Carol Mann told me that Hogan was able to train himself to do so without getting his arms and shoulders out of position, but mere mortals are better off not trying it. It gets complicated, though, because Jim does want you to rotate the forearms clockwise (open) in the second half of the swing, then the opposite way (as you described) at the beginning of the downswing. This is one area where hands-on instruction is pretty valuable.

 

As far as "over the top", if you maintain the bent over psosture, don't reverse pivot and don't throw your arms out away from your body, a one-planer can't come over the top. Over-the-top is a good two-planer's problem, not a good one-planer's.

 

I thought the issue with international shipping of the dvd set was the cost ($66, I heard). That seems absurd, but I assume there is a good reason for it because Jim isn't one to take advantage of people. If I were you, I'd pay the $66 if that what it comes down to. I've invested thousands in lessons and this dvd set is better than most of them put together.

 

Jeff

[Schleeman]

Hey Jeff,

 

First I's like to say, what mistakes are there in Five Lessons? Hogan said in the new Forward in 1985 that he wouldn't change a thing. So how could there be a mistake?

Jim, Jim, Jim... that's all you are talking about. I'm talking about what Hogan said. He gives mere mortals a little more capability than Jim.

 

So Ducky,

Yes Hogan thought the grip was very important, but he realized that if you change someone's grip they fall to pieces. They have to want to shange their grip. So Hogan went throught he process of teaching Schlee the value of the body turning, and with Schlee's strong grip, the ball started hooking pofusely. This then brought on Schlee's wanting to change his grip to direct the ball properly.

The grip is important but it is the 'chuck' that holds the 'tool'. The machine has to work properly and then the tool can be manipulated in the chuck to do the work at hand. Where the ball goes is the result of the working machine and the connection. If the ball doesn't go where it is supposed to go, then the machine or the connection to the tool is not right.

To prevent over-the-top movements you must use your lower body first. We all know that. But to guide the hands back to the top of the swing, the arms must be as close together as possible. Hogan emphasized it 3 times in Five Lessons. They must work together as one big arm. Leadbetter and McLain both thought Hogan's arms were softer at address than he advocated. Sure they were because it was too painful for him to set the elbows in as far as he wanted them to go. Just because he couldn't do it doesn't mean it's not important. Hear the man's words and do. Don't look at his swing.

And yes, you open the clubface as fast and as far as possible on the backswing, taking into consideration the closeness of the arms, and on the way down, uncoil the wrists as fast as you can creating a bow in the back of the left wrist, but I don't know what you mean by over releasing the wrists?

 

Rweeks,

Yes I would like to do an instructional DVD. I have a workbook coming out the same time as the main book but I am self publishing that one for the time being. Along with a practice club, it is being touted as the Legendary Golf System. One step at a time...

We'll see if everybody is ready to hear the truth first, about Hogan and his Legendary 'secret'.

 

Thanks,

Tom B

[jeffy]

Hey Jeff,

 

First I's like to say, what mistakes are there in Five Lessons? Hogan said in the new Forward in 1985 that he wouldn't change a thing. So how could there be a mistake?

Jim, Jim, Jim... that's all you are talking about. I'm talking about what Hogan said. He gives mere mortals a little more capability than Jim.

 

 

 

Tom-

 

I guess you missed where I said that Hardy was privleged to discuss the golf swing with Hogan. Though Jim does not tout these sessions to promote himself, he learned quite a bit from them, including things that were in "Five Lessons" that Hogan disavowed privately, regardless of what the 1985 forward said. Schlee wasn't the only person Hogan talked to. BTW, did you ever speak to Hogan?

 

Sorry if all I talk about is Jim. He has a wealth of information available for all to see (three PGA Teaching and Coaching Summit presentations available on dvd, one book, a four disc dvd set, multiple Golf Channel appearances and scores of teaching professionals who have attended his seminars). When more of your information gets out there and can be evaluated, perhaps there will be more of your theories to talk about.

 

Jeff

[jeffy]

 

Jeff -

 

Can you give more details on what Hogan disvowed in his 5 lessons book privately? Thanks.

 

-T

 

T-

 

Nope; I consider it privleged information until Jim choses to disclose the specifics publicly. I can tell you emphatically, though, that it is incorporated in his one-plane mechanics, is covered explicitly in the dvd set and is not that hard to figure out. If you really want to know, get to know Jim through his seminars, or become close with one of his long-time associates and they'll probably tell you. It is an interesting story.

 

Jeff

[Schleeman]

I'm sorry if you guys think my attitude here to be a little harsh but I'm just trying to get to the truth. If there is someone out there who has something different to say about what Hogan said, I'm all ears.

I realize Schlee wasn't the only one that spent time with Hogan, so if something is contradictory to what I am saying I just want to know. All I am aware of, personally, is what John told me about trying to be a superstar ball striker on the PGA Tour.

And it's not my way or the highway. I just believe if you want to learn how to swing the golf club the best way possible, you listen to who proved it the best. I don't think Hogan's amazing power of concentration was the only factor in his unbelievable GIR and fairways hit statistics, or his unquenchable thirst for practice. I don't see Vijay hitting every green and every fairway.

I respect other peoples opinions and love this avenue for debate. Just don't say I know something that you don't know and leave it at that.

 

Tom B.

[jeffy]

Tom-

 

I assume he feels that Hogan wouldn't want him to publicize where Hogan disagreed with his own book. I also assume that Jim wants full responsibility for what he teaches, and not use someone else's reputation as a crutch. But, as I said, it isn't too hard to at least narrow it down to a few possibilities.

 

Jeff

[Ducky]

So Ducky,

Yes Hogan thought the grip was very important, but he realized that if you change someone's grip they fall to pieces. They have to want to shange their grip. So Hogan went throught he process of teaching Schlee the value of the body turning, and with Schlee's strong grip, the ball started hooking pofusely. This then brought on Schlee's wanting to change his grip to direct the ball properly.

The grip is important but it is the 'chuck' that holds the 'tool'. The machine has to work properly and then the tool can be manipulated in the chuck to do the work at hand. Where the ball goes is the result of the working machine and the connection. If the ball doesn't go where it is supposed to go, then the machine or the connection to the tool is not right.

To prevent over-the-top movements you must use your lower body first. We all know that. But to guide the hands back to the top of the swing, the arms must be as close together as possible. Hogan emphasized it 3 times in Five Lessons. They must work together as one big arm. Leadbetter and McLain both thought Hogan's arms were softer at address than he advocated. Sure they were because it was too painful for him to set the elbows in as far as he wanted them to go. Just because he couldn't do it doesn't mean it's not important. Hear the man's words and do. Don't look at his swing.

And yes, you open the clubface as fast and as far as possible on the backswing, taking into consideration the closeness of the arms, and on the way down, uncoil the wrists as fast as you can creating a bow in the back of the left wrist, but I don't know what you mean by over releasing the wrists?

Tom,

 

Thanks a lot for clearing that up for me. When I mentioned over releasing of the wrists, I should have said early release of the wrists. As mentioned above, I found it hard to naturally release my wrists using Ben Hogan's grip, but then again, I wasn't making a conscious effort to uncoil the wrists on the downswing like you have suggested.

 

I would also like to say that I really appreciate you taking the time to visit the Golf WRX forums and answer some of our questions. It's not every day that I (and many others) would get the privilege to interact with someone that has such a wealth of information on Ben Hogan's golf swing.

[TheNatural72]

I know Hognas secret! I have been succesfully using "it" for three months. I noticed what it was while viewing his swing. OF course you are gonna need proper fundamentals regardless. But, I feel this "secret" is the one. He tries to give it away when describing pro-nating and supinating, but most people just didnt get it . ITs a very little thing but its a major little thing.

[taylormadefan]

Tom-

 

I assume he feels that Hogan wouldn't want him to publicize where Hogan disagreed with his own book. I also assume that Jim wants full responsibility for what he teaches, and not use someone else's reputation as a crutch. But, as I said, it isn't too hard to at least narrow it down to a few possibilities.

 

Jeff

 

I'm going to spill a bit of this, just because it has made such a profound influence on MY golf swing. If I'm not mistaken, it has to do wiith the right elbow and it's actions throughout the golf swing.

 

I'll just say that there's an incredible difference between my right elbow working correctly and incorrectly in my golf swing. It's worth looking into, and I imagine it's on this forum if you dig hard enough.

 

I'm positive it's on other forums, because I posted the info myself after listening to Mr. Hardy speak.

[Schleeman]

Thanks for your kind words, Ducky. I'm really all about letting everyone know what I know. Some of the physical aspects of the movements of the swing are hard to visualize without some type of on hands showmanship, but I try anyway.

Of course the right elbow has something to do with it, but it's onw small part of the secret. And if kidwilson33 knows something, he should share it with the rest of us.

I'm hear to listen and inform.

 

Later

tom B

[TheNatural72]

Tom,

I am curious to know what yor secret is as well. I dont want to spill what I think I know. However, COuld you tell me if I possibly am thinking what you claim to know. Here is my hint of sorts....AT the top, Hogan slightly turns the back of his left hand towards his target line. Then, if you look at page 95 of 5 fundamentals where hogan is pictured showing the effect of the Downswing move, you can see a very telling picture of what actually took place to get to that position. He states its a lower body move, which it is to a degree. However, there is a movement that the arms and hands make during that transition that Is the "little secret" IMO. In fact its is a complete contradiction to what you would think would get you in that page 95 position. I suppose its doing the opposite to actually get a more desirable position. Because from there its all takin care of. I also should note I believe this Magic move is what caused Hogan to have the severe hooks early on. I also think a flatter plane/arm position is a real Key to the success of his Secret. Am i Crazy?

[Schleeman]

kidwilson33,

 

It is actually hard to visualize what exactly you are saying, but if you are talking about the back of the left hand going toward the target, slightly, I can see that, because Hogan's 'little twist' gets him there on the backswing. If you notice, in video and a lot of stills, at the top of Hogan's backswing, the club points to the left of his target. I never thought of it as the back of the left hand slightly at the target.

You're exactly right, the flatter plane and arm position are key to success with the secret. On page 95, I don't see him uncoilinging the hands which is part of the secret, like he told Schlee. Maybe because he was only emphasizing the lower body, but there is a move that happens with the hands and arms after the downswing has been initiated.

In my book, the meat of the "secret" is what I term the "missing link" and it happens through the impact zone.

 

Tom B

[Hoganfan]

Schleeman, thank you so much for clarifying the "holding the arms together" instruction from Hogan. I thought I was doing that, but not nearly enough. I shoot anywhere from 70-77, but sometimes I can get wild with my shots and inconsistent.

 

I went back to my Hogan fundamentals book, looked at the picture on page 49, and concentrated on keeping my wrists and arms as close as I could during the swing, and miracles started happening. It felt weird at first, but I started to hit consistent shots.

 

The next day I played a very difficult course in Phoenix, and I hit 14 greens and shot -2. A week later, I played in the Gilbert City Championship and hit 13 greens for a 68. Then I played another round that week and hit 15 greens. I flew to Texas to play a Labor Day tournament and shot 67, 69. (-8) I'm a good player, but I have NEVER been that consistent. I went from an inconsistent driver with an occasional screaming snap hook, to a power fade in a matter of a few days. I love the power fade as it is very easy to control!!

 

Thanks for the tip, and I look forward to reading the book!!

[Schleeman]

 

 

Thanks for the reply Hoganfan. I still can't believe teachers around the country are not emphazing how important the arms are closer together. I like to tell people, "It may feel restrictive at first, but so did the seat belt when they started enforcing seat belt laws for driving a car."

Hope you have continued success.

 

Tom B.

[Schleeman]

It's obviously at address. My feet are flat on the ground.

[LYG]

Tom Bertrand's book is really good! Just got mine yesterday by ordering through Barnes & Noble and read it last night (The hit balls today, working on the principles).

 

Hogan fans (and any serious golfers wanting to improve) will really enjoy it. The stories and lore on Hogan are great...then the "system" is very straightforward, practical and helpful...that's the heart of the book.

 

Great read....highly suggested!

 

Thanks, Lawson

[Hoganfan]

Wow, after years of searching for consistency, I truly have found it!! And it all started with the "arms close together" tip. I've added another piece of Hogan magic and my game has even improved more. Today I entered a tournament and won, I hit 16 greens and the 2 I missed were on the fringe, and I also won Closest to the Pin on 2 par threes.

 

Here's what I added. On my downswing, I employed the Hogan/Schlee "world class move" with the right elbow. It is also addressed in September's Golf Digest main article.

 

I thought I was doing it correctly, but this week I really overemphasized getting the right elbow tucked on the downswing and magical things started happening.

 

When I did that, I was forced to turn my hips "level left" and my plane automatically shifted to the inside path. I was able to play the most beautiful "power fade" with this swing. I did have a couple of shot get a little right on me, but I still hit the green so no damage done.

 

P.S. I bought John Schlee's "Maximum Golf" video off of Ebay, and even though I don't feel comfortable setting up like he did, his "world class move" that Hogan taught him is dead on for anyone wanting to get better.

 

Can't wait to get the book, Schleeman.

 

Hoganfan

[hayam]

That is a very good clarifications Tom . I will pick up the book in amazon.

 

I used to have the 5 fundamentals but gave it away. Do I still need that book to understand this new book?

 

I too find it funny Now that people try to learn golf by watching sequence. They cannot, and they wont find it . Period. Golf is Mechanical, then finally translated into Feel for reproducibility. You dont WATCH your golf swing when you swing. there are things to be felt and stuffs to be done to achieve a good mechanical golf swings.

 

I have a video of the Hogan Punching and hitting, a picture of Hogan body tilting severely in the followthrough, I wonder what happens to the golf world if that is released and everybody sees it and start assuming. I think it would be pretty funny.

[hayam]

This is a interesting Gif of Hogan . its titled trailing arms pivot.

 

I don't think you are able to copy this unless with proper instructions from a qualified coach. Or know the reason why Hogan did that. I do. but from my coach's perspective. Not Hogan Perspective.

 

 

 

 

Admin... how come its not moving? gif doesnt work here? Thanks !

[hayam]

Hehe... its Mr. Hogan. He doesn't keep that armpit Glued to left arm and keep right arm back until Impact as some assumed. Only about halfway down the swing... but anyway.

 

 

 

 

Enjoy the sequence ...

[Schleeman]

Hayam,

 

Thanks for the positve words.

Who said anything about Hogan's left arm stuck to his chest?

 

Anyway, Five Fundamentals is referenced quite a bit in the book. What a lot of people don't understand is that Hogan continued to study the game long after his playing career, and what John Schlee was able to absorb was what Hogan learned about the golf swing from about '56-'74, since his last book. I was fortunate enough to have that handed down to me. What did Hogan learn after '74 until his death? If anyone knows I would love to hear it.

 

Tom B.

[eddie3392]

sorry for jumping in but I have to ask some questions. I fell apart when I tried to immulate Hogan's swing. I did however come across a good feeling that I want to ask about regarding maybe the secret. I think the secret is the right wrist angle and the rotation of the right knee. If you put the club in front of you and set the right wrist angle (i.e. Pushed forward) take the club to hip high with the toe up and then hold that postion through impact and letting the hands release naturally after impact. If you look from behind on all great ball strikers at hip high or at the top of the backswing you will see a distinct right wrist cup that maintains through out the swing. The other thing that I should tell you is that the right elbow's placement is crucial for setting your swing on the same path everytime. Schleeman is this all crap or am I restating what others have said but in a different manner.

Thanks

Eddie

[Schleeman]

Ok eddie, hang with me here.

The angle of the right wrist, or cup, actually increases from the top of the backswing to hip high level. If you create a proper cup on the backswing with the left wrist (Hogan's twist)and then start releasing that cup on the way down, that action allows the right elbow to dive in front of the right hip (or for some can't get it that far, on the right hip) and increase the right wrist angle.

The question then becomes, what do you do from there. Well, this is where the left elbow HAS TO BE TRAINED TO TAKE OVER AS THE GUIDING FACTOR. If it isn't or doesn't guide, every shot will go weak right. When it guides properly, you never really lose all the cup in the back of the right wrist through impact, because the right hand is now on top and the palm is facing the ground, traveling through the hitting zone as wiping the floor.

This is the only proper way to use all your right side power without interference from the left side, which should be guiding and not hindering.

Got all that?

 

TomB

[eddie3392]

Thanks -

 

I suffered from the hooks and that is what lead me to the hogan book to begin with. I never used my right side before reading the 5 lessons so I thought I would give it a try and I started to hook the ball even more with great contact. That lead me to what everyone else calls fanning, and that took care of a lot of the hook factor. I began to notice that I was feeling a hinge in the right wrist so I tried to start the setup with that feeling instead of fanning to that position. I just wanted to clarify what I was trying to explain. Thanks for your time!

I will pick up the book.

Eddie

[golfer.61]

Tom great stuff....after wiping the floor with the right hand throught impact did Hogan try to pull his left elbow inside to keep the clubface square through the finish????....also it got real quiet with Jeffey about the cupping of the left wrist at the top of the back swing....did the wrist begin to pronate to start the downswing????? ala Trevino????also the accelerator in the downswing would be the running of the right knee to the ball???and last how much weight in the left foot at the top of the backswing???? I'm thinking as much as he could get into his leftside without loing his posture.....keep it coming great stuff....hands have to be weak to neutral in order to keep the face square through impact....

 

 

thanks

[jeffy]

....also it got real quiet with Jeffey about the cupping of the left wrist at the top of the back swing....

 

Uh, what exactly are you talking about, assuming that you're referring to me?

[golfer.61]

nothing personal the discussion ended...wanted it to continue...that's all...believe me I am a huge fan of Hardy and know and understand where you are coming from but this is a very good dialog and would like for it to continue.....peace

[jeffy]

nothing personal the discussion ended...wanted it to continue...that's all...believe me I am a huge fan of Hardy and know and understand where you are coming from but this is a very good dialog and would like for it to continue.....peace

 

I have no idea what you are talking about; I don't recall any comment of mine in this thread relating to the left wrist position at the top. What is your question?