Hogan misunderstandings ?

[alexz]

Hello, I want to share some thoughts about the Hogan swing.

I don't agree with some advices of the 'leading authorities'.

 

TOM BERTRAND and the 'missing link' : "... in the hitting area, the left elbow turns toward the left hip, what squares the club face."

I can't find one video of Hogan impact with this open elbow.

http://img199.imageshack.us/img199/5371/imapct.png

The left elbow is totally closed ...

 

TOM BERTRAND and 'laying off the club' : "... you release the cupped left wrist, it brings down the hands and connect the right elbow."

It is presented like an active move ... not easy ! When I see how fast Hogan makes his transition in tournaments, it looks more as a reaction than an action.

 

"... the right elbow tuck in front of the right hip early in the downswing."

It's not easy to verify from a front view, but the only clear rear view I found from Axiometer is :

http://img62.imageshack.us/img62/9420/rearview.png

At 9 o'clock, the right elbow is not yet in front of the chest, but on the side.

 

I have never see a Hogan swing in tournament which looks like his practice swing. And all the specialists base their analyse on practice videos !

 

SLICEFIXER says "... Hogan is not running his right knee at the downswing. The footwork would be a lot different."

He didn't do it on practice, but take a look in tournaments :

1955 US Open, at 0'48" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyrGvkKPQug&feature=related

1953 British Open, at 1'27" and 1'33" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZ_dE6JBg60&p=13A363B9A2D489C0&playnext=1&index=10

1960 Masters, at 0'55" and 1'02" : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vDWyIVhDTxE&feature=related

 

Is it possible that they are wrong ? Or where is my misunderstanding ?

 

 

 

[chris_golf]

It needed for me 5 seconds to realise that Bertrand is far off.
[i][b][i]
Welcome to our forum to discuss Mr. Hogan...

[color="#000000"][size="2"]I don´t know how many threads we have only for elbow position (pitchpunch) and hip/leg motion of Mr. Hogan.

But I like as well a new discussion about pitch or punch elbow!!!! Or was it both...
[/size]
[/color]
[/i][/b][/i]Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1286103798' post='2725698']
It needed for me 5 seconds to realise that Bertrand is far off.
[i][b][i]
Welcome to our forum to discuss Mr. Hogan...

[color="#000000"][size="2"]I don´t know how many threads we have only for elbow position (pitchpunch) and hip/leg motion of Mr. Hogan.

But I like as well a new discussion about pitch or punch elbow!!!! Or was it both...
[/size]
[/color]
[/i][/b][/i]Chris
[/quote]

It took me also 5 seconds to see his far off. Then about one year to realize he was not.

[url="http://www.protapsa.com/images/stories/osumatakaa.jpg"]My impact[/url]

[chris_golf]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1286104306' post='2725703']
[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1286103798' post='2725698']
It needed for me 5 seconds to realise that Bertrand is far off.
[i][b][i]
Welcome to our forum to discuss Mr. Hogan...

[color="#000000"][size="2"]I don´t know how many threads we have only for elbow position (pitchpunch) and hip/leg motion of Mr. Hogan.

But I like as well a new discussion about pitch or punch elbow!!!! Or was it both...
[/size]
[/color]
[/i][/b][/i]Chris
[/quote]

It took me also 5 seconds to see his far off. Then about one year to realize he was not.

[url="http://www.protapsa.com/images/stories/osumatakaa.jpg"]My impact[/url]



[/quote]

Hello TeeAce,

my problem with Tom Bertrand is that all dynamic moves are concious moves to be trained...

What we all can see as an observer sure he can see as well, but to explain how and what happened in
the dynamic of Mr. Hogan is a different story.

Please can you go deeper in the elbow position Bertrand thinks Mr. Hogan did.
[attachment=664843:FofH-Hogan.jpg]
We know it depends on camera angel and what shot he played, but right elbow in front of the chest...left elbow to hip....


BTW nice impact TeeAce...

Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1286126375' post='2726052']

Please can you go deeper in the elbow position Bertrand thinks Mr. Hogan did.
[attachment=664843:FofH-Hogan.jpg]
We know it depends on camera angel and what shot he played, but right elbow in front of the chest...left elbow to hip....


BTW nice impact TeeAce...

Chris
[/quote]

I can try but it's very complicated to explain without showing. Should make a video some day about that.

First of all Bertrand is showing it badly. He shows well the left elbow, but misses totally the role of the right and hole body action.

If You take that position in the picture just before impact and do so, that You rotate Your left elbow as much to the left as possible. Just like Bertrand shows in his video. When same time having open position of shoulders, pull Your right elbow as much in as much as possible. With tat move all Your moving parts of arms are turned as much they can and what You get? Bowed left wrist with maximum ulnar deviation and right shoulder in and as close to the body as possible. And square club face, if You grip it correctly. There is no way to close it too much, if You just keep the right elbow in.

So more simple version is to open the arms triangle with upper arms and rotate forearms to the left as much as possible.

And Yes... it's most difficult thing in swing to achieve that I've ever seen

[Dariusz J.]

Bertrand's case was discussed in the Hogan's forum long ago. I think he wanted to bring into life the concept Hogan informed secretly Venturi about in the locker room after a tournament - "this (rear) elbow socket up the sky during the backwing, that (lead) one up the sky during the downswing". The point is that Hogan never turned the lead socket so early Bertrand tried to portrait.

Cheers

[chris_golf]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1286008480' post='2724458']
[
So to find Hogans secret we have to first understand what he did differently than others all the years and then find out why he hooked with that. Then we could find out what he did and how he found out his secret to eliminate the hook.


[b]I think I have found it and this vertical gear effect is the first step to see what he did all the years. The second step is to understand elbows and arms that are rolling two ways at the same time. Upper arms opening and forearms closing the club face.
[/b]
[/quote]

Ok TeeAce,

what do you think at what Position (maybe P6) he did this upper arms opening and forearms closing or was it because of his planeangle?
[attachment=664852:HoganSupi.jpg]

To have a bowed left wrist, this move with upper arms opening and forearms closing to not hook the ball sounds logic...


Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1286129029' post='2726116']
[
Ok TeeAce,

what do you think at what Position (maybe P6) he did this upper arms opening and forearms closing or was it because of his planeangle?
[attachment=664852:HoganSupi.jpg]

To have a bowed left wrist, this move with upper arms opening and forearms closing to not hook the ball sounds logic...


Chris
[/quote]

The problem with those pictures is that things happens in so small period that they can't be seen there. Of course we can say that in the last picture elbow has turned like Bertrand says, but unfortunately we will never get high speed video oh Hogan to tell when he started that move.

I feel best way to get that is to find those positions at impact and then try to figure out what You have to do with muscles to get there.

I have been able to do that move for some periods, but can't say I've achieved it. Last week was again great with that and ball flight is something really different. I don't exactly know why, but it seems to hang in the air much much longer and lands really softly.

Unfortunately season in Finland starts to be over and only two weeks in Spain at the end of the month to go. If I got time in Spain I try to make a video to clear this more.

[farmer]

I don't think Hogan himself spent much time analyzing tiny little parts of his swing. Even he would not be able to play trying to get into various positions. Watching videos and reading what he said makes it seem that what he did was not what he thought he was doing.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1286138450' post='2726339']
I don't think Hogan himself spent much time analyzing tiny little parts of his swing. Even he would not be able to play trying to get into various positions. Watching videos and reading what he said makes it seem that what he did was not what he thought he was doing.
[/quote]


I'm not sure about that. He might have been very analytic and also had really strong understanding about his swing. All we who hasn't born to "hogans" we have to find his moves some other way. If we want to understand those, we have to build up whole chain between club head and feet. Still pictures of the right moment can tell much much more than videos from that era.

[jak_bot]

[quote name='farmer' timestamp='1286138450' post='2726339']
I don't think Hogan himself spent much time analyzing tiny little parts of his swing. Even he would not be able to play trying to get into various positions. Watching videos and reading what he said makes it seem that what he did was not what he thought he was doing.
[/quote]

I agree, IMHOP, Mr. Hogan was the greatest feel player that was perceived by others to be a mechanical player.

[AlexCzervic]

Hogan may have taught left elbow to hip, but Hogan sure didn't do it before separation.

AC

[TeeAce]

[quote name='AlexCzervic' timestamp='1286146477' post='2726514']
Hogan may have taught left elbow to hip, but Hogan sure didn't do it before separation.

AC
[/quote]

Are we talking about same action? I talk about supination (real supination) where the elbow joint rotates. Its dynamic move which starts before impact and continues. I don't think it can be seen on videos or pictures when and how.

[alexz]

TeeAce, your explanation of this move is great, and I know it works really well.

 

But Hogan don't do that hereafter, the LEFT elbow is still close after impact :

 

 

If I do the Tom move, my left elbow is 90° more open. It looks totally different, no need of high speed camera to see it !

[TeeAce]

TeeAce, your explanation of this move is great, and I know it works really well.

 

But Hogan don't do that hereafter, the right elbow is still close after impact :

 

 

If I do the Tom move, my left elbow is 90° more open. It looks totally different, no need of high speed camera to see it !

 

 

 

 

Actually You posted perfect picture of that move in the first post of this thread. First two top left

 

 

 

[alexz]

Sorry, I speak about the LEFT elbow.
Betrand says that it should be open at impact, I don't see that anywhere ...

[eightiron]

Why would his left elbow be a hinge pin?

If he is doing the supination move with the left elbow as a hinge pin, why is it that on most normal swings( aside from some swings sticking the club in the ground) his left wrist gets bent almost immdeiately after impact?

[chris_golf]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1286224202' post='2728146']
Why would his left elbow be a hinge pin?

If he is doing the supination move with the left elbow as a hinge pin, why is it that on most normal swings( aside from some swings sticking the club in the ground) [b]his left wrist gets bent almost immdeiately after impact[/b]?
[/quote]

Someone can explain this? I never understood this move after impact...
Some kind of slap-hingerelease? Anti-supination move? anti-hook move?
Only way to swing hard left... His version of CF swing...
To keep the wrist´s healthy due to forces...

Chris

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1286224202' post='2728146']
Why would his left elbow be a hinge pin?

If he is doing the supination move with the left elbow as a hinge pin, why is it that on most normal swings( aside from some swings sticking the club in the ground) his left wrist gets bent almost immdeiately after impact?
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't get Your point here. What You exactly mean with that supination move?

Alexz: As I said earlier, I think Bertrand is showing that move badly. The point is that You can have some muscular action which can't be seen, because some other things reduces that. This move is one of the best examples of that.

If Your left hand is free and You rotate Your left elbow, hand follows. If You got got golf club there, it follows. But when You put Your right hand there to the grip and use it against the left, it can avoid left elbow rotation, even if the muscular action is still the same. So when resisted with right hand through the grip, left elbow doesn't rotate cause it don't have freedom for that, but that action makes left wrist bowed instead.

Some biomechanics experts could maybe explain this much better, but I hope some understand at least something of my idea.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='chris_golf' timestamp='1286256928' post='2729005']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1286224202' post='2728146']
Why would his left elbow be a hinge pin?

If he is doing the supination move with the left elbow as a hinge pin, why is it that on most normal swings( aside from some swings sticking the club in the ground) [b]his left wrist gets bent almost immdeiately after impact[/b]?
[/quote]

Someone can explain this? I never understood this move after impact...
Some kind of slap-hingerelease? Anti-supination move? anti-hook move?
Only way to swing hard left... His version of CF swing...
To keep the wrist´s healthy due to forces...

Chris
[/quote]

There is no human being to able to avoid that happen. The forces are just too much.

How quickly and how much are the right questions.

[eightiron]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1286257406' post='2729011']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1286224202' post='2728146']
Why would his left elbow be a hinge pin?

If he is doing the supination move with the left elbow as a hinge pin, why is it that on most normal swings( aside from some swings sticking the club in the ground) his left wrist gets bent almost immdeiately after impact?
[/quote]

Sorry, I didn't get Your point here. What You exactly mean with that supination move?

Alexz: As I said earlier, I think Bertrand is showing that move badly. The point is that You can have some muscular action which can't be seen, because some other things reduces that. This move is one of the best examples of that.

If Your left hand is free and You rotate Your left elbow, hand follows. If You got got golf club there, it follows. But when You put Your right hand there to the grip and use it against the left, it can avoid left elbow rotation, even if the muscular action is still the same. So when resisted with right hand through the grip, left elbow doesn't rotate cause it don't have freedom for that, but that action makes left wrist bowed instead.

Some biomechanics experts could maybe explain this much better, but I hope some understand at least something of my idea.







[/quote]

The one you been posting on about for ages , the drawing on page xx of five lessons

[TeeAce]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1286260078' post='2729034']
[


The one you been posting on about for ages , the drawing on page xx of five lessons
[/quote]


But there is so many moves on that picture and it has been confused so many times.

In that picture I can see, bowed wrist which is palmar flexion (many call it supination), rotation of left forearm (real supination) and unhinging of wrists (ulnar deviation)

If You do points 1 and 3, You will get open club face and back of the left hand pointing right from the target. If You do all together You get square and strong.