Pitch elbow = spiderman move

[michaelgb888]

Does the spiderman move (spiderman shooting web directly in front towards target line, with inside of right wrist direclty facing the sky and right palm directly facing targetline) correctly depicts/describes the pitch elbow?

 

How do you exactly execute the pitch elbow? I think to do it, the bs must be correctly done. Otherwise, very difficult if not impossible to do. Help, anyone?

[supercharger]

This move is a natural move as in throwing a ball. Martinez way of taking both hands back and in by the right hip will get the easiest feeling for the right arm naturally rising and winding until it is wound and the right elbow will be the last thing to find its limit by going in the 10 0'clock position if you are a right hander. The right wrist is also at its maximum movement which some call the spiderman move. Hogan keeps the right wrist this way and the right elbow on the hip while only rotating the club handle ccw with the left hand and dropping the arms in sync all while rotating with elbow on hips, it is basically rotating the handle with the left hand and riding the right elbow on the right hip on rotation meshing 1 for 1 rotation and gravitational drop or vertical declination to arrive at the ball. This will guarantee the shaft is on the eep and perpendicular with the spine. This is done as the hips are rotating and leading. To accomplish this move to look like hogan, I can only due in a very slow swinging motion. It is just not in my dna movements to keep in pitch for so long even if I delay the face shutting. One note to add: the right hand and the way it is put on the club will heavily influence and control the right forearm winding up during the backswing. If one has this right when you address the ball extending the hands will work the hands into each other and the top right inside forearm will already feel wound a bit.

[michaelgb888]

Thanks Supercharger. Will try that out. Care to spellout the specifics re the right hand grip? My take at the moment is that the right hand must be weak, sort of in top of the left hand (which IMO should be on the strong side). And the right hand grip must be really on the fingers. This way, the shaft can be 90 early in the bs, and be allowed to be hinged from transtion up to way until impact.

Also, is there a conscious or active effort to keep the right wrist bent/hinged from transition to impact?

[supercharger]

The middle fingers must be 90 deg to shaft as hogan shows in five lessons. Wrapping the hand over after the middle fingers are actually directly under the shaft will automatically set the forearm under slight tension. Pushing the hands away from the body enhances this feeling..This is the strongest right hand grip there is. If you are going to throw an object or punch something the right hand is at its bio designed best when right hand rotates ccw to end up palm down. The left does not have to be that strong. I would advise or say to start the exact same angle the your left hand hangs naturally coming into the middle of your body. Which should put the left thumb about 1 o'clock. Pushing this grip outwards away from your body will work the hands into each other automatically insuring the club is naturally gripped tighter just as the full swing is trying to pull it away from your body due to centrifical force. Imagine the right wrist is like throwing a ball it naturally stays at its bio limit due natural lagging force of the lower body leading. As the club has to drop down to the ground instead of staying on a horizontal plane the left hand must turn the handle ccw insuring the right wrist stays at its bio limit and at the same time keeping the shaft in line with the right forearm or on the eep. To get a grasp of what both arms and hands want to due naturally I would suggest only swinging a shaft and not manipulating the hands and watch what each hand does at transition under natural force in a mirror due to the changing of direction. You must grip the club as I have described to get the results. This is not a conscious move but will seem that way if you have been gripping or swinging otherwise. Hogan just used natural instincts of how the body wants to operate that just so happens to me the most effecient and consistent movement. His stance is just as brilliant to say the least.

[michaelgb888]

Thanks a lot SC! Will try that out. Just a followup question, can I do the left hand bowing (ccw) during the bs? Can't seem to do it on the way down. If I do, hooks creep in.

[supercharger]

I would not say you cannot bow on the backswing but do not see why one would need to. The bow should happen at transition on downswing of left hand. If you are hooking you are not getting your left hip over left heel not allowing the hips to lead so the hands can never surpass. This is a big point. If the hips are left and deep over the left heel they will lead and there is no way one can hook with the grip I laid out. If you are trying a hogan swing you must incorporate his stance to understand it completely.

[michaelgb888]

SC,

Not trying to be a smartass or for anything, but I'm not sure I'm convinced why you have to cup then uncup or bow the left wrist during transition. Any advantage of doing it at transition instead of takeaway/bs?

The way I see it, its better to do it right from the start as this removes the timing element of the uncupping at transition, which affects direction (at least in my case) because its near or nearing impact zone. So I think and experienced that its better to do it right from the start. And I have something to back this up. The closest that can describe this action are (a) the last par. of p. 56 of 5Lessons, and (b) 2nd to the last par. of p. 37, 2 last pars. of p. 35 and 1st par. of p. 36 of Down to Scratch by Abe Mitchell. And per Mike Cortson, this is also what Hogan taught/told Schlee as the secret based on Mike's encounter with Schlee himself. Per Mike, Schlee told him the bow must be there already by the time you reach 9o'clock in the bs. Yes, bs.

[supercharger]

Whatever works and seems right for you is probably right. I would just not force or manipulate a move that will automatically happen on its own, but that is just my personal opinion. Watch hogan waggle, the clubhead makes a complete circle cw looping into the ball from the inside. Waggle back to the point where the right wrist is bent to its bio limit and then raise your arms to the top of the backswing, the left wrist should be near a neutral flat or inbetween cup and a bowed position. If you will notice the wrist leaves the cup and rotates into a bowed then back to cup during the waggle. When this happens will probably vary from person to person due to setup differences and the individuality of every human being.

[michaelgb888]

Yes, that's exactly what I meant and been doing. I thought you earlier meant that the uncupping or bowing (from being cupped) is "intentionally" or "consciously" done at transition.

I wonder why Hogan suggested cupping at top in the '55 Life Mag article, while in '57 5Lessons he suggested no cupping at top. That's a clear inconsistency to me.

[supercharger]

What I was trying to say is i believe or in my personal experience the left hand must turn the handle ccw around hip high on the downswing and on through impact. Turning the grip ccw keeps the right wrist at its bio bent limit such as at the top and at the same time keeps the shaft in line with the right forearm while inducing the dropping of the club down into the ball and letting the right hand deliver its blow by getting to palm down just after impact. Once again these are natural movements when swinging only a shaft.. The club head weight applies a force that gets the brain involved to compensate to carry out the task. So the left hand is pulling and the right is more of a cocked lever being carried around by rotation waiting to be sprung and release the natural ccw motion of the right arm. Once again this cannot be understood unless one understands the diaganol stance.

[michaelgb888]

Yes, but I think you will remove a lot of timing element if you do the flatenning/bowing immediately during takeaway/bs as how Hogan describes the waggle in 5L. To me, Hogan is pushing/rotating/curling under the left hand during the waggle, and hence in the bs (I believe the waggle plus simultaneous shoulder turn is Hogan's instructions or detailed map for the bs). Then keep it like that (together with the right hand/wrist in its bio limit hinge), then upon reaching the top, just swing back into ds without manipulating your hands. That's it. I think that's simpler, rather than cup at top then uncup on way down. And yes, I find success when in diagonal stance, but not really sure in my mind as to the why. Why is the diagonal stance a necessity?

[michaelgb888]

The only pros I can think of in doing the cup at top is that it helps in cocking more the left hand/wrist at top. But that can be remedied by putting the grip/club more across or perpendicular to your left hand at address; or putting the grip in between the palms and fingers (the point where they meet) if your left thumb is not that flexible. In my case, even if I follow strictly Hogan's grip in 5L (butt end of grip more on palm), I still am able to get a full ****/hinge at top, even more than 90 at times.

But I think the more important thing in doing it at takeaway is it removes the timing element and hence leads to more consistency. And another one, keeping it flat/bowed at top makes your swing a lot stronger/faster because the left wrist is loaded and strong. It also helps in the "stretch" of the left side, hence leads to a faster swing.

Just my 2 cents.

[supercharger]

Look at the pros 50-60 years ago that is where it is at. Present day straight lines setting up on the line trying to get the body out of the way to do the work is a step back in evolution. I am not going to say cupped is best or say flat or bowed is wrong, once again individuality plays a huge role. I feel the cupping is a natural place the wrists go and aids in a feel of balance and relaxed state. Now depending on when the hips start to lead will work or cause it to go into the flat to bow position. To me a flat left wrist does feel stronger because it is more of a direct link or solid state to be pulled by the lower body. The hands must have some slack or time lapse to get into a trailing mode which should happen as the hips start rotation and cause the cup to naturally go into bow. I feel the guys who keep their left foot planted like more of a flat to bow and the guys who raise their left heel like the cup.

[michaelgb888]

Thanks for the explanations SC. All noted and will put those into consideration.

Re the diagonal stance, why is it a necessity for the ccw turn of left hand at hip height on ds?

[Jacob Mac]

[quote name='supercharger' timestamp='1289194644' post='2779747']
I would not say you cannot bow on the backswing but do not see why one would need to. The bow should happen at transition on downswing of left hand. If you are hooking you are not getting your left hip over left heel not allowing the hips to lead so the hands can never surpass. This is a big point. If the hips are left and deep over the left heel they will lead and there is no way one can hook with the grip I laid out. If you are trying a hogan swing you must incorporate his stance to understand it completely.
[/quote]

Could you please explain how to accomplish getting your left hip over the left heel? I am really struggling with this and it is resulting in hooks and fat shots. I would really appreciate any help. Thanks.