Help Me Become a Hogan-ite!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

 

 

 

[Hattori Hanzo]

Thanks for the awesome animations! It's guys like you that make this place so great!

So the first major thing that jumps out at me would be how flat my the club gets in my BS compared to Hogan. I'm thinking the best way to approach this would be to work on one little piece at a time, and then just see how that piece affects the others, rather than trying to do a total overhaul. Is that the strategy when approaching Hogan?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Alex, you have some hoganesque things going on in your swing. Good swing man. You already pointed out the backswing differences, but your transition and impact is headed in the right direction.

[Timanator]

Awesome break down Charles(I have no idea what your names is ), you dont hang back enough on the follow through(Same issue I have) .

Great swing still....

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1341545745' post='5224760']
Awesome break down Charles(I have no idea what your names is ), you dont hang back enough on the follow through(Same issue I have) .

Great swing still....
[/quote]

I've done 42 of these "amateur guy" vs Hogan comparisons and I always see the same differences. Most people read or hear from some hogan guru that Hogan's swing was super flat, so they make their ENTIRE swing motion flat. I would agree that the shoulders are flattish, but club shaft is upright. And yep, the hang-back is another common issue. I've heard professional leveled instructors teach "don't hang back at impact". I've seen the same in lots of golf magazines. But in their defense, maybe they're teaching a modern swing or something. In the old school reverse C swing, I see lots if upper body/right shoulder/head hang back. Right now I'm experimenting with this too.

Alex, your swing motion is better than good.

Anthony (or Charles )

[Hattori Hanzo]

Thanks for all of the help guys. A big part of the reason of why I was hesitant to post in here was because I've seen how nasty some of the arguments can get, so I really appreciate you taking it easy on me!

I should be able to get out to hit balls today, and my primary focus is going to be getting the club a little more upright in the BS. TD gave me what seems like a good way to feel that (at least from the practice swings I've made) so we'll see how it goes!

[ej002]

Dude, you already must hit the ball well if you are in the 70s from 6600, don't go farking with your swing becasue you want to look like Hogan. First thing is to stop the lateral motion. Its too much. Watch slicefixer videos or even SnT, nobody moves around that much. That will help your consistency. Then go from there.

Does his right eblow remind anybody of Kuchar?

[Hattori Hanzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1341585100' post='5226184']
Dude, you already must hit the ball well if you are in the 70s from 6600, don't go farking with your swing becasue you want to look like Hogan. First thing is to stop the lateral motion. Its too much. Watch slicefixer videos or even SnT, nobody moves around that much. That will help your consistency. Then go from there.

Does his right eblow remind anybody of Kuchar?
[/quote]

I'm not really going to mess with the swing too much in pursuit of looking like Hogan. This was more just to see what elements of his swing might be present in mine, and what SMALL tweaks I could make to get every so slightly more Hogan-esque. No major overhaul here.

[Hattori Hanzo]

Also, could you please elaborate on the Kuchar comment? Thanks!

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1341585100' post='5226184']
Dude, you already must hit the ball well if you are in the 70s from 6600, don't go farking with your swing becasue you want to look like Hogan. First thing is to stop the lateral motion. Its too much. Watch slicefixer videos or even SnT, nobody moves around that much. That will help your consistency. Then go from there.

Does his right eblow remind anybody of Kuchar?
[/quote]

Nobody moves that much laterally except Hogan. It's interesting that you told him to stop the lateral motion. I wouldn't stop it. I'll put up another swing sequence of them tonite with reference lines.

But it would be good if you could define exactly what you mean by "stop the lateral motion. Its too much.nobody moves around that much."
What is your definition of lateral motion? What are your reference points? Hips, shoulders, club, head, chest?

[rok78]

I would narrow the stance and fix your head and neck tilts before messing with anything else. From DTL, if you were to draw a perpindicular from the bridge of your nose, look where it's pointing through various parts of the swing compared to Hogan.

In the process of fixing the tilts that should clean up a lot of the backswing, along with narrowing the stance by a good 4-6 inches for driver.

Basically, you want your neck to feel long (especially the back part), but your chin can be down and the ball should be centered in your vision. On the backswing it's ok if your head rotates, but the ball/target line should remain centered in your vision (not chin-up, looking down).

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Yep, first major thing I would mess with would be narrower stance. Then see what effect that had on your overall dynamic. In DTL view, your head does some major dancing and early lifting; you'll see this more clearly with alignment marks. Also, your camera isn't on a tripod; that's why I didn't include the alignment marks on last nites vids.

What does your instructor think about your swing? if you have one.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1341601152' post='5227740']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341588569' post='5226560'][b]Nobody moves that much laterally except Hogan. [/b]It's interesting that you told him to stop the lateral motion. I wouldn't stop it. I'll put up another swing sequence of them tonite with reference lines.

But it would be good if you could define exactly what you mean by "stop the lateral motion. Its too much.nobody moves around that much."
What is your definition of lateral motion? What are your reference points? Hips, shoulders, club, head, chest?
[/quote]

Then you need to watch closer, he doesn't move as much as you think. And even so, his movement is different, the OP is moving off the ball a tone and shifting back. It is just not necessary. Evan Sevam1 doesn't move that much. He is dancing the polka!

Kuchar elbow - you have the punchy elbow, also looks like Furyk. It at the side and not in front. Look at Moe in my avatar - and look at yours. But just forget it for now, you mess with that right now and your game will go to hell for a while, it is a weird thing to try to change. JMO
[/quote]

I see OP's extreme lateral movement an effect of his exaggerated wide stance.

This vid will give you an idea of the lateral movement.
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqQTpW8rxKU"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqQTpW8rxKU[/url]

[ej002]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341588569' post='5226560'][b]Nobody moves that much laterally except Hogan. [/b]It's interesting that you told him to stop the lateral motion. I wouldn't stop it. I'll put up another swing sequence of them tonite with reference lines.
But it would be good if you could define exactly what you mean by "stop the lateral motion. Its too much.nobody moves around that much."
What is your definition of lateral motion? What are your reference points? Hips, shoulders, club, head, chest?
[/quote]

Then you need to watch closer, Hogan doesn't move as much as you think on the way back. And even so, his movement is very different, the OP is moving off the ball a ton on the back swing - basically swaying 6 inches. Hogan doesn't do that. Put the cursor on the center of Hogans hips, the center doesnt move back at all (maybe a smidge) - his hips just rotate around that center. I agree they do move forward at the top of the backswing, but this is different than a sway. The sway off the ball is just not necessary and will create more dependance on timing. The OP is moving 4 inches back and like 12 forward. Evan Sevam1 doesn't move that much. The OP is dancing the polka!

Kuchar elbow - you have the punchy elbow, also looks like Furyk. It at the side and not in front. Look at Moe in my avatar - and look at yours. But just forget it for now, you mess with that right now and your game will go to hell for a while, it is a weird thing to try to change. JMO

[ej002]

IMO Hogan doesn't really slide. He actually coils up - at the top he shifts over to his left pivot- then uncoils. It is not like a blended slide move, its not very linear (at least I don't see it that way). They are just very different moves.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1341602829' post='5227944']
IMO Hogan doesn't really slide. He actually coils up - at the top he shifts over to his left pivot- then uncoils. It is not like a blended slide move, its not very linear (at least I don't see it that way). They are just very different moves.
[/quote]

Agreed. I call it a sliding coil......around the right leg/knee.

[ej002]

Its really around his lower spine, then he moves his lower spine left, and uncoils and moves a bit it more on the follow through. Block the legs out and watch his torso only, it is easy to see that way.

[Hattori Hanzo]

I messed around with a narrower stance today. It felt a little weird and off-balance at first, but I got used to it. I was even through 12 today, and then on my tee shot on 13, a blister popped on my left pointer finger. Needless to say, I almost dropped the club, hit the ball right of right, and limped home playing the last 6 holes +3 for a 74. Not a spectacular ball-striking round by any means, but lots and lots of 2-putt pars.

With regards to instruction, I started seeing a new guy about 2 1/2 months ago. He's probably the best in the area - he's actually the guy that other pros go see when they need help with their swings - and I've been out to see him twice. However, I think the set-up issues probably came from my first lesson with him. My stance was VERY narrow, and he basically said, "For now, you can't get too wide." Well at that point, wide for me was a pretty normal stance width, but as that started to feel comfortable, I thought I needed to go wider because I associated comfortable with narrow. My other major issue that we've *somewhat* resolved was me dropping the club straight behind my body in the DS, and then having to flip my hands pretty hard at impact to have a prayer of squaring the club face up. I've really just been working on ingraining the feeling of swinging left, and (other than the driver) I've picked up 15 yards across the board, and much more consistency.

[Mike Divot]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341588569' post='5226560']
Nobody moves that much laterally except Hogan. It's interesting that you told him to stop the lateral motion. I wouldn't stop it. I'll put up another swing sequence of them tonite with reference lines.

But it would be good if you could define exactly what you mean by "stop the lateral motion. Its too much.nobody moves around that much."
What is your definition of lateral motion? What are your reference points? Hips, shoulders, club, head, chest?
[/quote]

I thought you weren't giving advice for the next 15 years?

[Mike Divot]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341597318' post='5227410']
Yep, first major thing I would mess with would be narrower stance. Then see what effect that had on your overall dynamic. In DTL view, your head does some major dancing and early lifting; you'll see this more clearly with alignment marks. Also, your camera isn't on a tripod; that's why I didn't include the alignment marks on last nites vids.

What does your instructor think about your swing? if you have one.
[/quote]

I thought you weren't giving advice for the next 15 years?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='Mike Divot' timestamp='1341617913' post='5229300']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341597318' post='5227410']
Yep, first major thing I would mess with would be narrower stance. Then see what effect that had on your overall dynamic. In DTL view, your head does some major dancing and early lifting; you'll see this more clearly with alignment marks. Also, your camera isn't on a tripod; that's why I didn't include the alignment marks on last nites vids.

What does your instructor think about your swing? if you have one.
[/quote]

I thought you weren't giving advice for the next 15 years?
[/quote]

Nope. No advice here. Hmmm, now I'm curious about your swing Mike. When can you post it?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Hattori Hanzo' timestamp='1341611443' post='5228796']
I messed around with a narrower stance today. It felt a little weird and off-balance at first, but I got used to it. I was even through 12 today, and then on my tee shot on 13, a blister popped on my left pointer finger. Needless to say, I almost dropped the club, hit the ball right of right, and limped home playing the last 6 holes +3 for a 74. Not a spectacular ball-striking round by any means, but lots and lots of 2-putt pars.

With regards to instruction, I started seeing a new guy about 2 1/2 months ago. He's probably the best in the area - he's actually the guy that other pros go see when they need help with their swings - and I've been out to see him twice. However, I think the set-up issues probably came from my first lesson with him. My stance was VERY narrow, and he basically said, "For now, you can't get too wide." Well at that point, wide for me was a pretty normal stance width, but as that started to feel comfortable, I thought I needed to go wider because I associated comfortable with narrow. My other major issue that we've *somewhat* resolved was me dropping the club straight behind my body in the DS, and then having to flip my hands pretty hard at impact to have a prayer of squaring the club face up. I've really just been working on ingraining the feeling of swinging left, and (other than the driver) I've picked up 15 yards across the board, and much more consistency.
[/quote]

I would fix the pivot first. Find a way to turn your shoulders vertically instead of flat. With that, you can keep the connections in the armpits but avoid making the shaft too flat in the BS. When you fire your hips in transition, remember that will flatten the plane, or in Hogan's words, the plane will become less steep or less vertical. Relative to these things, look also at the thoracic spine and neck tilts of Hogan at setup. The comparative vids of Anthony is great to compare you to Hogan re these things.

[svsvincenzo]

Anthony, have you figured out why you can't do Hogan's face directly facing the ball more told you by eightiron?...lol

[Hattori Hanzo]

Found a couple 7 iron vids. No need to re-address the stance width; I cringe every time I see it! Sorry that the camera angle on the DTL is really weird. I had my 10 year old cousin take these lol!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DiRd2l4UWB8&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ka8xRKKwn78&feature=context-cha

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341626899' post='5230286']
Anthony, have you figured out why you can't do Hogan's face directly facing the ball more told you by eightiron?...lol
[/quote]

Nope. Not yet. Right now experimenting with hanging back as much as possible.

[Timanator]

There are a few different Hogan swing through the years, we should focus on his best years which was pre accident/secret.

[Timanator]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341628478' post='5230430']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341626899' post='5230286']
Anthony, have you figured out why you can't do Hogan's face directly facing the ball more told you by eightiron?...lol
[/quote]

Nope. Not yet. Right now experimenting with hanging back as much as possible.
[/quote]

Charles Anthony, the hang back occurs by the posting up on to the front left heel in transition. I'm almost sure of that in my slow motion drills.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Timanator' timestamp='1341633955' post='5230912']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341628478' post='5230430']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341626899' post='5230286']
Anthony, have you figured out why you can't do Hogan's face directly facing the ball more told you by eightiron?...lol
[/quote]

Nope. Not yet. Right now experimenting with hanging back as much as possible.
[/quote]

Charles Anthony, the hang back occurs by the posting up on to the front left heel in transition. I'm almost sure of that in my slow motion drills.
[/quote]

HE will hit the ground big time...lol...ouch...lol

[k001k47]

A quiet neck and head is the result of the rest of the body doing it's job properly. Focusing on the head in this instance would be like focusing on your head when you accidentally keep lurching forward and headbutting people when you try to shake hands. (Left handed, of course.)

You've got good hand-eye coordination, OP. I wish I had that.

[svsvincenzo]

Not talking about the head. Talking about the face more facing the ball. That means your neck tilt is more tilted towards the target line. Combine that with Hogan's upper spine more rounded down instead of straight up, what does that tell us? If Hogan turned his shoulder flat instead of upright, his neck will be tilted away from the target and his face would be facing the ground on the right side of his right foot when he reaches the TOP if you don't do any compensating move with the head/neck. If Hogan try to keep himself looking at the ball and make a flat turn of his shoulders, his head will go up nearing the top. But he never did. He even lowered and continue facing the ball directly down. His eyes didn't look down at all.

Now, since the neck and spine are connected to the hips and legs, you gotta do something with them correctly to keep the upper center still.

And there's another problem, the hands, the wrists and the grip...lol