The Pro's vs Ben Hogan - swing animations

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341723472' post='5235696']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341722854' post='5235668']
So, where YOU able to find the differences, similarities, oppositions and whatever to figure out our man Hogan? C'mon, tell us so we will all learn...
[/quote]

Not really. Just slight differences in old school vs new school swings. No need for anyone to tell you. Use your eyes and decide for yourself.
[/quote]

Lol..yeah, thought so..

[tofur99]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341793684' post='5239608']
[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1341723472' post='5235696']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341722854' post='5235668']
So, where YOU able to find the differences, similarities, oppositions and whatever to figure out our man Hogan? C'mon, tell us so we will all learn...
[/quote]

Not really. Just slight differences in old school vs new school swings. No need for anyone to tell you. Use your eyes and decide for yourself.
[/quote]

Lol..yeah, thought so..
[/quote]

kinda hostile man. I for one am thouroughly enjoying the animations he posted.

[nicebutdim]

great job!!

what these videos emphasize to me is how much flatter and heavier Hogan's clubs were........... that's why by comparison his arms are so much more passive and and the swing more pivot driven.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1341931292' post='5249222']
great job!!

what these videos emphasize to me is how much flatter and heavier Hogan's clubs were........... that's why by comparison his arms are so much more passive and and the swing more pivot driven.
[/quote]

How did the comparative videos tell you that Hogan used flatter and heavier clubs?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1341999033' post='5254422']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1341931292' post='5249222']
great job!!

what these videos emphasize to me is how much flatter and heavier Hogan's clubs were........... that's why by comparison his arms are so much more passive and and the swing more pivot driven.
[/quote]

How did the comparative videos tell you that Hogan used flatter and heavier clubs?
[/quote]

Well I know for a fact that he certainly did, I've read about it! cheating really ;-)

Jokes aside, the flatter and heavier the equipment the less likely you are going to be tempted to try and power the swing with the arms, and not trust the pivot............. even the modern rotary golfers (like those shown in comparison) display distinct signs of powering and controlling the club at the end of the swing with the upper body.

I didn't realize how much I was doing this too until I got older heavier equipment.......... the temptation with lighter and more upright equipment is to lose passiveness in the hands. I'm doing a ton of Sliceficer 9-3 drills at the moment and the heavier clubs allow me to make the hands fully subservient to the pivot because I can feel the weight of the club and the temptation to throw the club becomes much less. From my perspective I notice how contrived a finish Mahan and Woodland have in comparison to Hogan and Player who had heavy clubs whipped around them and finished with the club almost slung skywards.......... you really don't see these swing dynamics and pressures on tour anymore with perhaps the exception being Jim Furyk, and its interesting to note that he is consistently the most accurate driver of the ball on tour despite having the funkiest looking swing. Is that the definition of irony?

[svsvincenzo]

Swing dynamics and pressures of Hogan you can see on Jim Furyk? Can you explain further?

Hogan is at least 5'9" and can hit it 300 with a 43" driver that is steel shafted heavy. Furyk can hit it 270 on average with modern equipment, and he is 6'3".

Hogan slides his hips nearing the top during the BS, then just turns his hips in transition with a lateral combination. Furyk just slides his hips to get his high hands on top to get down to elbow plane.

Sorry, but I am at a loss with the comparison with Furyk. And with Mahan, who immediately drops the clubhead (loses #2 accum/L wrist ****), then just rotates. That's a big D. And to us amateurs, that's even a lot bigger D.

I am wondering, maybe people are giving too much stock in that Hogan R elbow close to the R hip in the DS...and then they do it by shoving that R elbow down there DURING the DS. Impossible. Gotta start doing it in the BS. And it ain't in the elbow.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342192714' post='5268350']
Swing dynamics and pressures of Hogan you can see on Jim Furyk? Can you explain further?

Hogan is at least 5'9" and can hit it 300 with a 43" driver that is steel shafted heavy. Furyk can hit it 270 on average with modern equipment, and he is 6'3".

Hogan slides his hips nearing the top during the BS, then just turns his hips in transition with a lateral combination. Furyk just slides his hips to get his high hands on top to get down to elbow plane.

Sorry, but I am at a loss with the comparison with Furyk. And with Mahan, who immediately drops the clubhead (loses #2 accum/L wrist ****), then just rotates. That's a big D. And to us amateurs, that's even a lot bigger D.

I am wondering, maybe people are giving too much stock in that Hogan R elbow close to the R hip in the DS...and then they do it by shoving that R elbow down there DURING the DS. Impossible. Gotta start doing it in the BS. And it ain't in the elbow.
[/quote]

Will do a few more Pro vs Hogan animations this weekend. Furyk, Dustin Johnson, Luke Donald, and some others.

You said Hogan could hit it 300yds while Furyk avgs 270yds. Not so sure you're comparing apples to apples. I sat and talked with an old white-haired dude that played on tour in the 60's. Lots of good conversation. He says he was a nobody compared to all the other pros, but that in those days there was no water system in fairways so the grass didn't grow at all. It was like a combination of dirt and burned grass. When the ball hit the fairway it would roll for days. He also said that todays courses all have nicely watered fairways and thick healthy green grass that doesn't allow the ball to roll like it did in the old days. Said if he was playing on tour today he would lose mucho yardage. Now I gotta try to remember the guys name.

Of course I never witnessed the ball flight/roll of the 60's; just going by what he said.

Anybody here actually played back then?? Can you confirm this?

[tylerdurden]

Matteo would be a good guy to do a compare to Hogan as well.

[svsvincenzo]

I think there's a very good reason why you chose Hogan instead of Furyk.

I think the point is, Furyk swung way differently than Hogan. Hip height to hip height they're similar, but aint all good ballstrikers similar at impact zone? A slightly different BS and/or transition will result or require different transition/DS.

So what's the benefit of studying Furyk relative to Hogan?

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342197724' post='5268942']
I think there's a very good reason why you chose Hogan instead of Furyk.

I think the point is, Furyk swung way differently than Hogan. Hip height to hip height they're similar, but aint all good ballstrikers similar at impact zone? A slightly different BS and/or transition will result or require different transition/DS.

So what's the benefit of studying Furyk relative to Hogan?
[/quote]

Not sure what you mean by [i]"I think there's a very good reason why you chose Hogan instead of Furyk."[/i]

I'm studying as many players as possible, male, female, amateur and pro. Picking out the Hogan traits.

[svsvincenzo]

I meant for your project.

How will looking at others' swing help in figuring out Hogan?

Better if you now change your mind and begin studying the posts/opinions of Slicefixer, Fats, Lake, iteachgolf and eightiron re Hogan. And yeah, 5L. It's about time. If you do that, discussions will be a lot more interesting.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342199138' post='5269086']
I meant for your project.

How will looking at others' swing help in figuring out Hogan?

Better if you now change your mind and begin studying the posts/opinions of Slicefixer, Fats, Lake, iteachgolf and eightiron re Hogan. And yeah, 5L. It's about time. If you do that, discussions will be a lot more interesting.
[/quote]

Ahhhhh, understood.

I chose Hogan after searching for youtube videos about Stack and Tilt. I got interested in S&T when I used to browse through golf magazines. While on youtube, I saw a Hogan compilation vid. Just liked the swing action. Looked different and like lots of fun. I had never heard of him before that, and even if I did, I never had much respect for those old dudes from ther early days cause I didn't like their swing or the way they set up to putt. I was basing my comparision on what I saw on tv in 2009. If the swing didn't look like Tigers or Phil's or whoever esle was popular, then I didn't take much notice to it.

Lol, whoever would have though that I would want an old school reverse-c swing??

Would definitely study Slicefixer, Fats, Lake, iteachgolf and eightiron and you.............after I saw their swings or their students swings.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1342200530' post='5269258']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342199138' post='5269086']
I meant for your project.

How will looking at others' swing help in figuring out Hogan?

Better if you now change your mind and begin studying the posts/opinions of Slicefixer, Fats, Lake, iteachgolf and eightiron re Hogan. And yeah, 5L. It's about time. If you do that, discussions will be a lot more interesting.
[/quote]

Ahhhhh, understood.

I chose Hogan after searching for youtube videos about Stack and Tilt. I got interested in S&T when I used to browse through golf magazines. While on youtube, I saw a Hogan compilation vid. Just liked the swing action. Looked different and like lots of fun. I had never heard of him before that, and even if I did, I never had much respect for those old dudes from ther early days cause I didn't like their swing or the way they set up to putt. I was basing my comparision on what I saw on tv in 2009. If the swing didn't look like Tigers or Phil's or whoever esle was popular, then I didn't take much notice to it.

Lol, whoever would have though that I would want an old school reverse-c swing??

Would definitely study Slicefixer, Fats, Lake, iteachgolf and eightiron and you.............after I saw their swings or their students swings.
[/quote]

Swings of slice, teach and Lake are in YT.

[svsvincenzo]

Slicefixer/Geoff Jones:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HBxS7A26ktE

[svsvincenzo]

iteachgolf/Dan Carraher:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oc09by3QbAY

[svsvincenzo]

Lake/John Dochety:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4GoOxvBLUQ

[svsvincenzo]

Eightiron:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zkteEJkDGA

[svsvincenzo]

Fats:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EFrgQEk6E8k

Lol...sorry Fats...lol

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342192714' post='5268350']
Swing dynamics and pressures of Hogan you can see on Jim Furyk? Can you explain further?

Hogan is at least 5'9" and can hit it 300 with a 43" driver that is steel shafted heavy. Furyk can hit it 270 on average with modern equipment, and he is 6'3".

Hogan slides his hips nearing the top during the BS, then just turns his hips in transition with a lateral combination. Furyk just slides his hips to get his high hands on top to get down to elbow plane.

Sorry, but I am at a loss with the comparison with Furyk. And with Mahan, who immediately drops the clubhead (loses #2 accum/L wrist ****), then just rotates. That's a big D. And to us amateurs, that's even a lot bigger D.

I am wondering, maybe people are giving too much stock in that Hogan R elbow close to the R hip in the DS...and then they do it by shoving that R elbow down there DURING the DS. Impossible. Gotta start doing it in the BS. And it ain't in the elbow.
[/quote]

The right elbow position is very important.......... but more important is HOW it gets to that position at impact. Throwing the hands at the ball makes this very difficult. However laying off the club, and powering the swing with the lower body pivot will keep that right elbow close as you fight the release through impact. For a classic ballstriker swing the right elbow position should not be a contrived move, but a signal that the right dynamic forces and pressures are being generated.

I think there are big differences between Hogan and Mahan which again comes down to pressures and intentions. In my opinion he's a one plane 'swinger', and not a 'hitter' like Hogan and many other classic ballstrikers.

The comparison with Furyk is a good one I think......... sure their swings look and perform differently but there are similar pressures and intentions involved........... just ignore the backswing! Furyk lays off the club then controls the swing with the pivot. He makes contact with the right elbow tucked in close and the club immediately disappears left behind the body (dtl view) post impact. Like Hogan the club is not rolled or flipped through impact, and a very important aspect when analyzing this is the slung release skywards which signifies to me a pivot dominated action. I do think that Furyk's lower body outraces him arms a bit too much through impact (idiosyncrasy? or another light equipment issue?) but that aside there are definite similarities.

These general comparisons are covered much better by Bradley Hughes.

Final point is you say Hogan "then just turns his hips in transition with a lateral combination"............... I don't believe Hogan 'just' did anything. We need to consider the pressures he built up. Was the weight 60-40 heels to ball of foot? during set-up were feet pressures along the inside of legs? was he turning the square right foot into the ground? during transition what part does right foot pressure play? All this stuff cannot really be seen on film and its very important subtleties to consider for a person with a pivot controlled action.............. foot and hip action really is key. Obviously after time these nuances would translate into fluid FEELINGS however some intense thought needed to go into this during the practice phase. Remember that Slicefixer identifies two main considerations for this type of swing : 1)Pivot & 2)Arm Action. Hogan didn't practice for 8 hours a day for nothing! If one of the two major components of his swing just required [i]turn and add some lateral [/i]you can be sure he would have been at the bar far sooner.

[svsvincenzo]

NBD,

I believe he just turned his hips and immediately thereafter fired everything...his shoulders, arms, hands, club....that is exactly what he said in 5L, and I believe him.

Why is that possible? Because he did and prepared everything during the BS. He did that so that all he would do in DS is what he said. And re people's skepticism on this, this is what he said, and I quote:

"AFTER YOU HAVE INITIATED THE DOWNSWING WITH THE HIPS, YOU WANT TO THINK OF ONLY ONE THING: HITTING THE BALL. On a full drive, I try to hit the ball hard, sometimes as hard as I can. On other shots where the premium on distance is not so high, I try to hit the ball as hard as the particular shot warrants. I don't give as much as a passing thought to how the face of my club will contact the ball. That's all been taken care of before, at address and during the waggle. Consciously trying to control the face of the club at impact is folly. You cannot time such a delicate and devilish thing. It happens too fast, much too fast.

As I explain to my audiences at golf clinics, the correct hitting motion is one unbroken thrust from the beginning of the downswing to the end of the follow-through. I point out also that I think of only two things: starting the hips back and then hitting just as hard as I can with the upper part of my body, my arms and my hands, in that order. When I expound this one-piece hit-through action, I generally experience two main types of reactions from the members of a clinic audience. The first is a kind of polite skepticism which might be put into words like this: "I bet there's more to it. Nothing could be that simple. There has to be more conscious technique at impact. That's the inside dope which the pros never tell us outsiders." The second type of reaction is sort of a misguided cynicism which might go something like this: "Sure, if you're a pro and have practically eaten your lunch on the practice tee for 20 years, then, maybe, everything has become so second nature that you don't have to think of anything but hitting through with all your beef. Hogan's explanation of what he does is O.K. for Hogan, but it will probably do us average golfers as much good as if Bob Richards were to tell us that pole-vaulting is really nothing at all—once you have pushed off from your pole and are 14 feet or so in the air, all you have to do is to roll over the bar, neatly." I can understand these reactions but they are simply not accurate reflections of the facts. I would not be undertaking this series, for example, if I were not genuinely convinced that the average golfer has the requisite physical ability to use the same methods fundamentally that all the top golfers use. The average golfer's problem is not so much a lack of ability as it is a lack of knowing what he should do."

Hogan predicted you right on...lol

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342234643' post='5272062']
NBD,

I believe he just turned his hips and immediately thereafter fired everything...his shoulders, arms, hands, club....that is exactly what he said in 5L, and I believe him.

Why is that possible? Because he did and prepared everything during the BS. He did that so that all he would do in DS is what he said. And re people's skepticism on this, this is what he said, and I quote:

"AFTER YOU HAVE INITIATED THE DOWNSWING WITH THE HIPS, YOU WANT TO THINK OF ONLY ONE THING: HITTING THE BALL. On a full drive, I try to hit the ball hard, sometimes as hard as I can. On other shots where the premium on distance is not so high, I try to hit the ball as hard as the particular shot warrants. I don't give as much as a passing thought to how the face of my club will contact the ball. That's all been taken care of before, at address and during the waggle. Consciously trying to control the face of the club at impact is folly. You cannot time such a delicate and devilish thing. It happens too fast, much too fast.

As I explain to my audiences at golf clinics, the correct hitting motion is one unbroken thrust from the beginning of the downswing to the end of the follow-through. I point out also that I think of only two things: starting the hips back and then hitting just as hard as I can with the upper part of my body, my arms and my hands, in that order. When I expound this one-piece hit-through action, I generally experience two main types of reactions from the members of a clinic audience. The first is a kind of polite skepticism which might be put into words like this: "I bet there's more to it. Nothing could be that simple. There has to be more conscious technique at impact. That's the inside dope which the pros never tell us outsiders." The second type of reaction is sort of a misguided cynicism which might go something like this: "Sure, if you're a pro and have practically eaten your lunch on the practice tee for 20 years, then, maybe, everything has become so second nature that you don't have to think of anything but hitting through with all your beef. Hogan's explanation of what he does is O.K. for Hogan, but it will probably do us average golfers as much good as if Bob Richards were to tell us that pole-vaulting is really nothing at all—once you have pushed off from your pole and are 14 feet or so in the air, all you have to do is to roll over the bar, neatly." I can understand these reactions but they are simply not accurate reflections of the facts. I would not be undertaking this series, for example, if I were not genuinely convinced that the average golfer has the requisite physical ability to use the same methods fundamentally that all the top golfers use. The average golfer's problem is not so much a lack of ability as it is a lack of knowing what he should do."

Hogan predicted you right on...lol
[/quote]

Well I'm a hacker so that makes sense!

Actually I agree that much of this was prepared during the setup and backswing....... Hogan was so particular about his set up that the transition was somewhat automated, and thus the set up is something I spend a lot of time focusing on at the range. There has also been much discussion about Hogan's use of ground forces and why he had that extra spike on his right shoe and the emphasis this would have placed there. As Bradley Hughes would say, pressure from the right leg during transition causes an opposite effect which clears the left shoulder and hip. No doubt that once Hogan started to build the correct pressures from his set up he would just have to turn the lower body through to some extent....... however to correctly put things in place and perform in the correct sequence is not that easy to achieve. But you made a very valid point and I was nickpicking.......... my only observation being that I don't think you can emulate this kind of consistent pivot without building the correct ground pressures.

btw what do you think of my breakdown of Mahans and Furyk's swings?

[svsvincenzo]

I think Mahan NEEDS to dump #2 right at transition before he turns hard...only way to be accurate with that kind of L wrist alignments/geometry. He also couldn't fire his hips like Hogan because what that will do is dump #2 and throw the clubhead out too much. If he then rotates hard, he will hit it out to in. So, he just dumps #2, in the meantime sliding his hips, pulling his R elbow down and in and I suspect he's trying to maintain the R wrist bend HARD, despite of which his #2 still gets dumped a bit. It's unavoidable.

Furyk just slides. Doesn't turn at all. He needs it because of that L arm lifting too high. He has to get it down first before he rotates. He needs the hip slide so long to get it down, then when it's down he turns whatever is left to turn in his shoulders. Why he's 6'3" but hits it short relatively. Gonna be straight though because of his slow face closure due to coming in from a very low or shallow release point. Straight path too due to that very very vertical plane he uses. Too late for max power though.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Jim Furyk

 

 

 

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Jack

 

 

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Justin Rose

 

 

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Lee Westwood

 

 

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Dustin Johnson

 

 

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342240058' post='5272402']
I think Mahan NEEDS to dump #2 right at transition before he turns hard...only way to be accurate with that kind of L wrist alignments/geometry. He also couldn't fire his hips like Hogan because what that will do is dump #2 and throw the clubhead out too much. If he then rotates hard, he will hit it out to in. So, he just dumps #2, in the meantime sliding his hips, pulling his R elbow down and in and I suspect he's trying to maintain the R wrist bend HARD, despite of which his #2 still gets dumped a bit. It's unavoidable.

Furyk just slides. Doesn't turn at all. He needs it because of that L arm lifting too high. He has to get it down first before he rotates. He needs the hip slide so long to get it down, then when it's down he turns whatever is left to turn in his shoulders. Why he's 6'3" but hits it short relatively. Gonna be straight though because of his slow face closure due to coming in from a very low or shallow release point. Straight path too due to that very very vertical plane he uses. Too late for max power though.
[/quote]

You could be right about Furyk's sliding motion. However I see both hips almost square to the target at impact though right elbow is behind the right hip (thats what I meant about lower body slightly outracing the arms) and i'm not sure how this can only be achieved with just a slide. There's no doubt in my mind that Furyk's pivot is not as powerful or efficient as Hogan's............. I'm guessing that this is to do with how upright his swing is and that he uses upright clubs, and he also severely cramps his path to the ball.

He's still hitting over 70% of fairways this year......... just imagine if he didn't have such a crazy lay-off move. Probably why by comparison Hogan could hit 80-90%.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Greg Norman

 

 

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Rickie Fowler