The Pro's vs Ben Hogan - swing animations

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Alex Noren

 

 

[hoganfan924]

HG,

You keep saying Hogan was "more vertical" but relative to what and when?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342578210' post='5296762']
HG,

You keep saying Hogan was "more vertical" but relative to what and when?
[/quote]

The ground, of course. I honestly think that is one of the most un-noticed aspect in Hogan's swing. And mind you, he is small. He should have a less vertical shoulder turn for his height. So what that does tell us, he really turned those shoulders really more vertical.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342579166' post='5296858']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342578210' post='5296762']
HG,

You keep saying Hogan was "more vertical" but relative to what and when?
[/quote]

The ground, of course. I honestly think that is one of the most un-noticed aspect in Hogan's swing. And mind you, he is small. He should have a less vertical shoulder turn for his height. So what that does tell us, he really turned those shoulders really more vertical.
[/quote]

More vertical is a relative term. More vertical than what or whom? Backswing or downswing or both. Let's get very specific

[tofur99]

Ryo Ishikawa

 

 

 

 

 

wow ryo is really close

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342579662' post='5296910']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342579166' post='5296858']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342578210' post='5296762']
HG,

You keep saying Hogan was "more vertical" but relative to what and when?
[/quote]

The ground, of course. I honestly think that is one of the most un-noticed aspect in Hogan's swing. And mind you, he is small. He should have a less vertical shoulder turn for his height. So what that does tell us, he really turned those shoulders really more vertical.
[/quote]

More vertical is a relative term. More vertical than what or whom? Backswing or downswing or both. Let's get very specific
[/quote]

More vertical meaning it's not really strictly vertical like a ferris wheel. But its more towards vertical than being more towards flat. For his small height, it is more vertical than many if not most of the players. Like the pictures I posted above. His R shoulder's lowest point relative to his L shoulder's highest point is really something.

[hoganfan924]

I don't "think it's something" at all. I do think it's something that virtually every good player does and yet Hogan is still flatter than many of them. I'd even say he's flatter than at least 90% of PGA tour pro's. I think you'd be better off comparing Hogan to dozens of players and noting the differences

[hoganfan924]

Ryo Ishikawa

 

 

 

 

 

wow ryo is really close

 

Ryo has a much steeper shaft, doesnt pronate in the BS and gets well across the line. Consequently, he can't release it like Hogan - the most important characteristic of all

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342580661' post='5297004']
I don't "think it's something" at all. I do think it's something that virtually every good player does and yet Hogan is still flatter than many of them. I'd even say he's flatter than at least 90% of PGA tour pro's. I think you'd be better off comparing Hogan to dozens of players and noting the differences
[/quote]

Can you show pictures of what you're trying to say? I'd say this picture below of Hogan pretty much shows what I'm saying HGFan. And the other pictures as well.

[attachment=1262344:hogan_2011-11-27.jpg]

And his R shoulder didn't came out, then in again and down. It really came from the inside, then really down relative to his L shoulder.

[tylerdurden]

Ant could you get one of Gary Player (not as an old man) vs Hogan. Player has one of the best swings of all time IMO. VERY stable club face

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1342582919' post='5297212']
Ant could you get one of Gary Player (not as an old man) vs Hogan. Player has one of the best swings of all time IMO. VERY stable club face
[/quote]
And he's a midget like me

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342581511' post='5297088']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342580661' post='5297004']
I don't "think it's something" at all. I do think it's something that virtually every good player does and yet Hogan is still flatter than many of them. I'd even say he's flatter than at least 90% of PGA tour pro's. I think you'd be better off comparing Hogan to dozens of players and noting the differences
[/quote]

Can you show pictures of what you're trying to say? I'd say this picture below of Hogan pretty much shows what I'm saying HGFan. And the other pictures as well.

[attachment=1262344:hogan_2011-11-27.jpg]

And his R shoulder didn't came out, then in again and down. It really came from the inside, then really down relative to his L shoulder.
[/quote]

I've got DTL video of about 50 tour pro's on my youtube channel (same as my username). Just saying that there's nothing "special" about how steep or shallow Hogan's shoulders are in the downswing. In fact, I think he's flatter than most. BTW, Hogan's shoulder turn is still shallower than his pane of glass. Go study.

[hoganfan924]

From 5L:

[quote]
[color=#000000]On the backswing, the plane serves the golfer as sort of a three-dimensional road map. HIS SHOULDERS SHOULD ROTATE ON THIS PLANE, CONTINUOUSLY INCLINED AT THE SAME ANGLE (WITH THE BALL) THEY ESTABLISHED AT ADDRESS. .....As for his shoulders, as they turn on the backswing, the top of the shoulders will continuously be brushing against the glass.[/color]

[color=#000000]Now, on the downswing, as the body moves to the left and the right shoulder is automatically lowered, this causes the pane of glass to be shifted into a different position. Its lateral axis is no longer in line with the line of flight. It points slightly to the right of the target. (The pane is also tilted so that the leading edge is raised off the ground.) [/color]
[/quote]

[color=#000000]Yet Hogan's shoulders were clearly flatter than the pane of glass both in the backswing (moreso than downswing) and in the downswing.[/color]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342587990' post='5297616']
From 5L:

[quote]
[color=#000000]On the backswing, the plane serves the golfer as sort of a three-dimensional road map. HIS SHOULDERS SHOULD ROTATE ON THIS PLANE, CONTINUOUSLY INCLINED AT THE SAME ANGLE (WITH THE BALL) THEY ESTABLISHED AT ADDRESS. .....As for his shoulders, as they turn on the backswing, the top of the shoulders will continuously be brushing against the glass.[/color]

[color=#000000]Now, on the downswing, as the body moves to the left and the right shoulder is automatically lowered, this causes the pane of glass to be shifted into a different position. Its lateral axis is no longer in line with the line of flight. It points slightly to the right of the target. (The pane is also tilted so that the leading edge is raised off the ground.) [/color]
[/quote]

[color=#000000]Yet Hogan's shoulders were clearly flatter than the pane of glass both in the backswing (moreso than downswing) and in the downswing.[/color]
[/quote]

Yup. I agree. But as I've responded to you before, that is still great as an image. The only reason Hogan had his hands lower than the Hogan plane of glass is because he wanted the R armpit pressure to remain and still connected. But clearly, he turns those shoulders, especially the L shoulder on exactly that plane of glass.

Nevertheless, this video below show that his hands brushes the Hogan plane of glass on truly full swings (this is driver, so he really maxed out his turn for max possible distance, unlike irons where you hit a certain distance):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342584446' post='5297348']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342581511' post='5297088']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342580661' post='5297004']
I don't "think it's something" at all. I do think it's something that virtually every good player does and yet Hogan is still flatter than many of them. I'd even say he's flatter than at least 90% of PGA tour pro's. I think you'd be better off comparing Hogan to dozens of players and noting the differences
[/quote]

Can you show pictures of what you're trying to say? I'd say this picture below of Hogan pretty much shows what I'm saying HGFan. And the other pictures as well.

[attachment=1262344:hogan_2011-11-27.jpg]

And his R shoulder didn't came out, then in again and down. It really came from the inside, then really down relative to his L shoulder.
[/quote]

I've got DTL video of about 50 tour pro's on my youtube channel (same as my username). Just saying that there's nothing "special" about how steep or shallow Hogan's shoulders are in the downswing. In fact, I think he's flatter than most. BTW, Hogan's shoulder turn is still shallower than his pane of glass. Go study.
[/quote]

Can you post up a link in here of Hogan having a more shallow or more flat shoulder turn instead of a more vertical shoulder turn?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588390' post='5297636']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342587990' post='5297616']
From 5L:

[quote]
[color=#000000]On the backswing, the plane serves the golfer as sort of a three-dimensional road map. HIS SHOULDERS SHOULD ROTATE ON THIS PLANE, CONTINUOUSLY INCLINED AT THE SAME ANGLE (WITH THE BALL) THEY ESTABLISHED AT ADDRESS. .....As for his shoulders, as they turn on the backswing, the top of the shoulders will continuously be brushing against the glass.[/color]

[color=#000000]Now, on the downswing, as the body moves to the left and the right shoulder is automatically lowered, this causes the pane of glass to be shifted into a different position. Its lateral axis is no longer in line with the line of flight. It points slightly to the right of the target. (The pane is also tilted so that the leading edge is raised off the ground.) [/color]
[/quote]

[color=#000000]Yet Hogan's shoulders were clearly flatter than the pane of glass both in the backswing (moreso than downswing) and in the downswing.[/color]
[/quote]

Yup. I agree. But as I've responded to you before, that is still great as an image. The only reason Hogan had his hands lower than the Hogan plane of glass is because he wanted the R armpit pressure to remain and still connected. But clearly, he turns those shoulders, especially the L shoulder on exactly that plane of glass.

Nevertheless, this video below show that his hands brushes the Hogan plane of glass on truly full swings (this is driver, so he really maxed out his turn for max possible distance, unlike irons where you hit a certain distance):

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/media]
[/quote]

Very deceptive camera angle, IMO (makes his arm plane appear steeper than reality). Got to look at a pure DTL or over the camera view. I just don't think that there's anything special, secretive, unique, et. al. about his shoulder plane.

[svsvincenzo]

Here's another one, posted this before but just for the information of readers that haven't seen the previous pictures, including you:


[attachment=1262384:001_Hogan.jpg]

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588751' post='5297666']
Here's another one, posted this before but just for the information of readers that haven't seen the previous pictures, including you:


[attachment=1262384:001_Hogan.jpg]
[/quote]

And a plane line drawn across his shoulders is still a foot outside of the ball.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342588663' post='5297656']

Very deceptive camera angle, IMO (makes his arm plane appear steeper than reality). Got to look at a pure DTL or over the camera view. I just don't think that there's anything special, secretive, unique, et. al. about his shoulder plane.
[/quote]

Not saying that. What I'm saying is it is NOT TURNING FLAT OR LEVEL THAT WILL RESULT TO THAT SWING LOW AND LEFT RELEASE. Hogan is trying to swing those shoulders as vertical as his human body possible can so that his clubhead path can be AS LESS CURVED AS POSSIBLE OR MORE DTL AS POSSIBLE given the fact that he has lots of L forearm/wrist/hand rotation at a very shallow angle from hip height to hip height.

Given his hands doesn't brush up the Hogan plane of glass, that is still a very good image or feel for a player during his actual swing, especially for the SHOULDERS. Hogan said in 5L, he turned his SHOULDERS AND ARMS on that plane of glass. In fact, he said that it is ok to get the HANDS below the plane of glass.

The swing low and left idea is bad, IMO, as it curves the clubhead path and baseline of the plane to the left early and quickly.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342588900' post='5297680']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588751' post='5297666']
Here's another one, posted this before but just for the information of readers that haven't seen the previous pictures, including you:


[attachment=1262384:001_Hogan.jpg]
[/quote]

And a plane line drawn across his shoulders is still a foot outside of the ball.
[/quote]

The Hogan plane of glass is NOT drawn on a turned shoulder plane (on top). It is drawn on the shoulder plane at SETUP.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588541' post='5297648']


Can you post up a link in here of Hogan having a more shallow or more flat shoulder turn instead of a more vertical shoulder turn?
[/quote]

No, I never claimed that his shoulders were flatter than a 45 deg. angle. when at their maximum verticality (altough maybe some exist with longer clubs). I just think you've fixated on something that is quite common, not unique to Hogan.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589121' post='5297700']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342588900' post='5297680']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588751' post='5297666']
Here's another one, posted this before but just for the information of readers that haven't seen the previous pictures, including you:


[attachment=1262384:001_Hogan.jpg]
[/quote]

And a plane line drawn across his shoulders is still a foot outside of the ball.
[/quote]

The Hogan plane of glass is NOT drawn on a turned shoulder plane (on top). It is drawn on the shoulder plane at SETUP.
[/quote]

That's correct, what's your point? Clearly if you draw the line across his shoulders in the picture you posted it would point outside of the ball while the line at address originates from the ball. Therefore, the downswing plane is flatter. Since the base of his neck hardly moves vertically at all, it's a fair comparison.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342589130' post='5297702']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342588541' post='5297648']
Can you post up a link in here of Hogan having a more shallow or more flat shoulder turn instead of a more vertical shoulder turn?
[/quote]

No, I never claimed that his shoulders were flatter than a 45 deg. angle. when at their maximum verticality (altough maybe some exist with longer clubs). I just think you've fixated on something that is quite common, not unique to Hogan.
[/quote]

So, how can Hogan swing low and left if his shoulders turns more vertical? His thought would have been swing high and as straight as possible without disconnecting the arms...

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589072' post='5297696']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342588663' post='5297656']
Very deceptive camera angle, IMO (makes his arm plane appear steeper than reality). Got to look at a pure DTL or over the camera view. I just don't think that there's anything special, secretive, unique, et. al. about his shoulder plane.
[/quote]

Not saying that. What I'm saying is it is NOT TURNING FLAT OR LEVEL THAT WILL RESULT TO THAT SWING LOW AND LEFT RELEASE. Hogan is trying to swing those shoulders as vertical as his human body possible can so that his clubhead path can be AS LESS CURVED AS POSSIBLE OR MORE DTL AS POSSIBLE given the fact that he has lots of L forearm/wrist/hand rotation at a very shallow angle from hip height to hip height.

Given his hands doesn't brush up the Hogan plane of glass, that is still a very good image or feel for a player during his actual swing, especially for the SHOULDERS. Hogan said in 5L, he turned his SHOULDERS AND ARMS on that plane of glass. In fact, he said that it is ok to get the HANDS below the plane of glass.

The swing low and left idea is bad, IMO, as it curves the clubhead path and baseline of the plane to the left early and quickly.
[/quote]

Nope. He's trying to turn them on his pane of glass, not maximum vertical and yet he can't even get them as vertical as his pane of glass. No good player turns his shoulders flat in the downswing. None! Yet many are much steeper than Hogan.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342589303' post='5297716']

That's correct, what's your point? Clearly if you draw the line across his shoulders in the picture you posted it would point outside of the ball while the line at address originates from the ball. Therefore, the downswing plane is flatter.
[/quote]

Yup, I agree with you there. His DS plane is flatter than his BS plane.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589524' post='5297730']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342589303' post='5297716']
That's correct, what's your point? Clearly if you draw the line across his shoulders in the picture you posted it would point outside of the ball while the line at address originates from the ball. Therefore, the downswing plane is flatter.
[/quote]

Yup, I agree with you there. His DS plane is flatter than his BS plane.
[/quote]

No, the downswing shoulder plane is flatter than the pane of glass and steeper than his backswing shoulder plane.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342589459' post='5297726']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589072' post='5297696']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342588663' post='5297656']
Very deceptive camera angle, IMO (makes his arm plane appear steeper than reality). Got to look at a pure DTL or over the camera view. I just don't think that there's anything special, secretive, unique, et. al. about his shoulder plane.
[/quote]

Not saying that. What I'm saying is it is NOT TURNING FLAT OR LEVEL THAT WILL RESULT TO THAT SWING LOW AND LEFT RELEASE. Hogan is trying to swing those shoulders as vertical as his human body possible can so that his clubhead path can be AS LESS CURVED AS POSSIBLE OR MORE DTL AS POSSIBLE given the fact that he has lots of L forearm/wrist/hand rotation at a very shallow angle from hip height to hip height.

Given his hands doesn't brush up the Hogan plane of glass, that is still a very good image or feel for a player during his actual swing, especially for the SHOULDERS. Hogan said in 5L, he turned his SHOULDERS AND ARMS on that plane of glass. In fact, he said that it is ok to get the HANDS below the plane of glass.

The swing low and left idea is bad, IMO, as it curves the clubhead path and baseline of the plane to the left early and quickly.
[/quote]

Nope. He's trying to turn them on his pane of glass, not maximum vertical and yet he can't even get them as vertical as his pane of glass. No good player turns his shoulders flat in the downswing. None! Yet many are much steeper than Hogan.
[/quote]


So, if Hogan is trying to turn his shoulders below the Hogan plane of glass, including the L shoulder, how would that reconcile with the swing low and left idea? Wouldn't the release be swing the L and R shoulders as parallel to the Hogan plane of glass as much as possible? If you swing the shoulders low and left, that will level out the shoulder turn, and the L shoulder will turn way below the glass, thus BENDING THE BASELINE OR CLUBHEAD PATH TO THE LEFT EARLY. The pulls.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589824' post='5297744']
So, if Hogan is trying to turn his shoulders below the Hogan plane of glass, including the L shoulder, how would that reconcile with the swing low and left idea? Wouldn't the release be swing the L and R shoulders as parallel to the Hogan plane of glass as much as possible? If you swing the shoulders low and left, that will level out the shoulder turn, and the L shoulder will turn way below the glass, thus BENDING THE BASELINE OR CLUBHEAD PATH TO THE LEFT EARLY. The pulls.
[/quote]

Hogan is trying to turn his shoulders [i][b]on[/b][/i] the pane, just not steeper than the pane (according to 5L but he doesn't quite get there and stays a little flatter). Whoever said anything about swinging the shoulders "low and left?" Certainly not me or Slicefixer. Check out my own swing. Latest was posted a couple of weeks ago. Downswing shoulder plane pretty darn close to Hogan's (and about a million other good players). Check out slicefixer's youtube channel (he has a ton of students swinging right over the camera) - do you see any "low left shoulder" turns? I think you've clearly misunderstood something here.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342590247' post='5297770']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342589824' post='5297744']
So, if Hogan is trying to turn his shoulders below the Hogan plane of glass, including the L shoulder, how would that reconcile with the swing low and left idea? Wouldn't the release be swing the L and R shoulders as parallel to the Hogan plane of glass as much as possible? If you swing the shoulders low and left, that will level out the shoulder turn, and the L shoulder will turn way below the glass, thus BENDING THE BASELINE OR CLUBHEAD PATH TO THE LEFT EARLY. The pulls.
[/quote]

Hogan is trying to turn his shoulders [i][b]on[/b][/i] the pane, just not steeper than the pane (according to 5L but he doesn't quite get there and stays a little flatter). Whoever said anything about swinging the shoulders "low and left?" Certainly not me or Slicefixer. Check out my own swing. Latest was posted a couple of weeks ago. Downswing shoulder plane pretty darn close to Hogan's (and about a million other good players). Check out slicefixer's youtube channel (he has a ton of students swinging right over the camera) - do you see any "low left shoulder" turns? I think you've clearly misunderstood something here.
[/quote]

Thank you. Now it's clear. Completely agree with you there. That is what I mean by Hogan swinging/releasing more DTL rather than low and left.

[hoganfan924]

I don't think Hogan had a DTL intention. What is unique about his shoulder turn is not the plane, it's the rate of rotation, IMO. In just one movie frame (from impact), his shoulders have rotated open tremendously (almost 90 deg). With that rapid rotation, and the connection of his upper left arm to his ribcage, his hands and therefore clubhead make a sharp left turn immediately post-impact - that is the "low left" characteristic that is very uncommon, especially in today's players (but was common with Snead and other greats of his era). Even Ledbetter noted this in his Hogan book ( even put in a diagram of his clubhead path), yet he didn't understand the significance of it, IMO (or if he did, he didn't put it in the book).