The Pro's vs Ben Hogan - swing animations

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1342410685' post='5283198']
Confused, I'm agreeing with you pards. I'm saying that it would look really weird to do the hip turn and side bend, then have flat shoulders instead of trying to turn them more vertical. Think about, it negates all the good work you'd have done before.
[/quote]

Lol...yeah, you're right...that is more addressed to them now I guess...but I think these guys hates turning the hips...so they HAVE TO swing low and left because there's no way for their shoulders to go but low and left...

@hoganfan

Hogan is more chasing DTL with his BODY/SHOULDERS. If you keep the weight left or reverse-k at setup, you would have to thrust the hips pre-impact to make the shoulders turn more vertical. If you don't, you HAVE TO swing low and left. You have no choice.

[hoganfan924]

@HG101

Your assumptions about what Hogan is doing couldn't be more off, IMO. His shoulders are relatively flat in the downswing (compared to other players). They're even flatter than his own "pane of glass." His shoulders are rotating open extremely fast through and post impact (in my estimation probably faster than any major champion ever). There is no possible way for Hogan to go DTL with that motion unless he were to just fling his arms out away from the body through impact ala, Brenden Steele, Tommy Aaron, et. al. Hogan is the antithesis of this. Hogan does have a reverse K set-up and he's very much into his left side before impact. Heck, he's very into his left side before the club even starts down!

Tell me how he's going DTL and high when in the DTL view, his clubhead "exits" well below his shoulders and about waist high on almost every piece of video available. Snead might be the only guy that exits lower and he was known as a pull fader. You really need to compare Hogan to a much wider variety of players to see the most glaring characteristics and uniqueness of his motion, IMO.

[nicebutdim]

Are you sure you haven't seen anyone with higher hands?

 

 

There's absolutely no doubt the club is moving hard left post impact............ Hogan swung in-square-in.

 

Just because the torque from the swing pulled his arms up at the end doesn't mean that he wasn't exiting left. The high finish is something he and Furyk both have.

 

Now if you want to see another really high finish to a swing check out Greg Norman or Jack Nicklaus.

 

Yes, I'm sure - these photos don't show the follow through, so it makes me think you're talking about high hands at impact. I'm talking follow through - Hogan's hands are a full foot higher than the top of his head.

 

Hi,

 

Actually I totally agree with you about the how high his hands go at the top of his follow through........ about as high as it gets really. However its just a cosmetic detail to his swing, but at the same time something that can tell you a lot about what went on before. Its why I can say that Hogan and Furyk have many similarities, which is borne out in the accuracy of their numbers.

 

What I was also trying to show is that its still possible to go hard left post impact and still achieve this vertical finish at the end. Just look at the middle image of Hogan compared to Tiger, his hands and shaft have disappeared in front of his body.......... they've turned the corner, and the shaft will exit to the below left of his left shoulder. As I said Hogan swings in-square-in and is fighting like crazy not to throw the hands dtl.

 

The vertical finish is nothing more than him finally giving it to centrifugal force at the end and totally releasing his arms and shoulders........... forces send them skywards.

[bhughesgolf]

Using Hogan and Palmer as an example.....they both flew the club up HIGH to finish point because they had two of the grestest strongest fastest post impact accelerations of anyone who playedthe game.

[attachment=1259336:hoganpalmer.JPG]

They had control of the club with strong hands and turned it around by tremendous ground pressures in their feet which allowed the pviot to absolutely rip post impact and bring the arms/hands/club along for the ride

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cN5-Zm8JY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cN5-Zm8JY[/url]

Watch Palmers pivot...watch his feet eventually give out and turn in the direction the pivot is pulling it

Once the pivot has reached it's max turning point then the arms have nowhere else to go but UP..........

Posting this pic also because it is a pretty good view of Hogan and Fowler in the same spots of the swing........Both very shallow coming down and then Fowler stops his shoulders into a steep vertical position and releases his arms...and Hogan keeps his arms pinned and is powering his pivot keeping the club with him as oppossed to letting it get away from him....... the tighter the butt of the club stays to the core the faster you can move it....smaller circle radius moves faster than a larger/oval radius.... this keeps the leverage on the shaft and the face resists rolling over and the head stays square and down the line before the post impact pivot starts pulling the hands around but the shat stays on plane......so Hogan throws the club up and Fowler folds it to a finish.... Hogan is accelerating all the way...Fowler has brought the club down more with velocity and has a weak pivot and ground work compared to BH.

[attachment=1259334:hoganfowler.JPG]

[bhughesgolf]

And if you look at the club face .....
Hogan's club is perfectly square to his shoulder alignment.....if he could stop right there and address the club again that clubface would be very neutral
Fowlers club is really closed compare to his shoulder alignment....if he could stop right there and address the club again the face would be pointing at his left foot

[attachment=1259338:hoganfowlerface.jpg]

He is a great player because he can time what is going on....but we will never see another Hogan or Trevino in the ballstriking stakes because the equipment is too light and too long and too upright....the great swings were built around the tools they used......just about everyone today wants to do it the Fowler way with few exceptions.
It took precision to hit a small head in the middle to garner maximum control and distance......but when the clubhead is massive the element of fear of a mishit being too detrimental is evaporated...so we see almost everyone using velocity induced swings where the arms and hands are slapping through impact....
This can work for a finely tuned athlete who wants to beat balls each and every day to keep that timing in place...but for your average golfer who doesn't get to practice it is disaster
The clubs have been very detrimenatal to buildng and maintaining the golf muscles that are meant to be used when we swing a golf club.... lots to ponder about that, but distance is NOT the main goal of good golf...it is distance CONTROL we should be after and the light long delofted upright stuff does very few favours for 95% of the golf population even if we may gain 8 more yards...or so the selling slogan goes lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342412559' post='5283324']
@HG101

Your assumptions about what Hogan is doing couldn't be more off, IMO. His shoulders are relatively flat in the downswing (compared to other players). They're even flatter than his own "pane of glass." His shoulders are rotating open extremely fast through and post impact (in my estimation probably faster than any major champion ever). There is no possible way for Hogan to go DTL with that motion unless he were to just fling his arms out away from the body through impact ala, Brenden Steele, Tommy Aaron, et. al. Hogan is the antithesis of this. Hogan does have a reverse K set-up and he's very much into his left side before impact. Heck, he's very into his left side before the club even starts down!

Tell me how he's going DTL and high when in the DTL view, his clubhead "exits" well below his shoulders and about waist high on almost every piece of video available. Snead might be the only guy that exits lower and he was known as a pull fader. You really need to compare Hogan to a much wider variety of players to see the most glaring characteristics and uniqueness of his motion, IMO.
[/quote]

@HF

Can you show pictures and videos where Hogan is turning his shoulder flat in the DS? Here are sequences in DS where it is shown that he is turning his shoulders more vertical than flat:

[attachment=1259356:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact.jpg]
[attachment=1259358:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact1.jpg]
[attachment=1259360:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact2.jpg]
[attachment=1259362:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact3.jpg]
[attachment=1259364:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact4.jpg]

Re flatter than his own plane of glass image: Yes, it is flatter than his own pane of glass, but as a feel while swinging the club that image is spot on. Nevertheless, in some very full swings, his hands almost touches that plane of glass, especially in driver full swings such as this one, at the 0:05 sec mark:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk

Re rotating open fast making it impossible to swing DTL, etc.: I am saying Hogan swings "more DTL". Of course the clubhead will always curve left at some point as we are standing on the side of the ball. The shoulders cannot turn strictly vertical. I am saying it is more vertical, and he is swinging more DTL.

The fast turn of Hogan has got nothing to do with turning the shoulders vertically or flat. The speed of his pivot or shoulder turn will only make the clubhead path curve earlier. On a still pic, when you see him at impact where his shoulders are already open, of course you will see his shoulders more level or flat. But his L shoulder came vertically from below more, and the R shoulder came vertically from above more.

I am not saying Hogan is swinging more DTL by flinging his arms away like a monkey. He is swinging more DTL because of his pivot---his L side extension, his R side bend, and his full frontal extension...all these enabling his shoulders to turn more vertical rather than more flat.

Re Hogan already in reverse-k at setup and being already on L side at transition and impact: What has that got to do with a vertical shoulder turn? But yes, if you go to your L side already at setup and, hence, before you start transition, it would be difficult to turn those hips and achieve L side extension and full frontal extension because the L hip tendon inside is trapped already. Everyone can try this by putting their weight entirely on L leg, while bending down in forward flexion, then turn the hips, you will feel a twitch inside the L hip, the labrum tears/soreness...and then as comparison, put weight on L leg while already being in extension (L hip and leg and waist are straight, standing up already), you can turn freely the hips without feeling a twitch...

Re clubhead exiting below the shoulder: That is a function of his very shallow plane at release point (aka early elbow plane). The clubhead came into impact from waist high...of course it will also come thru past impact at same corresponding position at nearer elbow plane as well...

Re Snead: Yeah, Snead is more low and left, as you can see also in his lower hands finish. The reason for this is Snead's R hip. It doesn't get past and thru the L hip (his hips are less open than Hogan, though Snead also has that L side extension if not more). This is the reason why Snead's R shoulder is forced to be higher at impact zone and past it. That curved is clubhead path earlier than Hogan, hence the pulls. Plus Snead didn't have what Hogan has, which is that thing that cannot be mentioned...the secret...lol

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342435265' post='5283902']
Using Hogan and Palmer as an example.....they both flew the club up HIGH to finish point because they had two of the grestest strongest fastest post impact accelerations of anyone who playedthe game.

[attachment=1259336:hoganpalmer.JPG]

They had control of the club with strong hands and turned it around by tremendous ground pressures in their feet which allowed the pviot to absolutely rip post impact and bring the arms/hands/club along for the ride

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cN5-Zm8JY[/media]

Watch Palmers pivot...watch his feet eventually give out and turn in the direction the pivot is pulling it

Once the pivot has reached it's max turning point then the arms have nowhere else to go but UP..........

Posting this pic also because it is a pretty good view of Hogan and Fowler in the same spots of the swing........Both very shallow coming down and then Fowler stops his shoulders into a steep vertical position and releases his arms...and Hogan keeps his arms pinned and is powering his pivot keeping the club with him as oppossed to letting it get away from him....... the tighter the butt of the club stays to the core the faster you can move it....smaller circle radius moves faster than a larger/oval radius.... this keeps the leverage on the shaft and the face resists rolling over and the head stays square and down the line before the post impact pivot starts pulling the hands around but the shat stays on plane......so Hogan throws the club up and Fowler folds it to a finish.... Hogan is accelerating all the way...Fowler has brought the club down more with velocity and has a weak pivot and ground work compared to BH.

[attachment=1259334:hoganfowler.JPG]
[/quote]

Hogan and Palmer...both high hands finisher....look at Palmer's shoulder turn Brad...I think it is even more vertical than Hogan.

Re Hogan vs Fowler...no contest...Fowler turns his shoulders more vertical but he almost completely stalls the pivot. IMO, it is because of his R hip. It was stuck. Can't get thru. If Fowler continued his pivot with that, his R shoulder will immediately go high and turn level much much earlier. So he decided he's better off by stalling his pivot, at least that way his R shoulder will remain low at impact, hence make the clubface squarer at impact. But because of his stalling pivot, the clubface closes and crosses over immediately after impact. That is also why you see Fowler jump a bit prior to impact, like a junior. He's got to because he's trying to release his hips, but he was only able to release the L hip, the R hip doesn't get past and thru...hence he didn't have full frontal extension...

[tofur99]

I don't see any DTL releasing intentions here, looks to be turning open, club head (which is attached to his arms, which are attached to his body) comes back inside immediately post impact.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFBj3361i8

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342436205' post='5283924']
And if you look at the club face .....
Hogan's club is perfectly square to his shoulder alignment.....if he could stop right there and address the club again that clubface would be very neutral
Fowlers club is really closed compare to his shoulder alignment....if he could stop right there and address the club again the face would be pointing at his left foot

[attachment=1259338:hoganfowlerface.jpg]

He is a great player because he can time what is going on....but we will never see another Hogan or Trevino in the ballstriking stakes because the equipment is too light and too long and too upright....the great swings were built around the tools they used......just about everyone today wants to do it the Fowler way with few exceptions.
It took precision to hit a small head in the middle to garner maximum control and distance......but when the clubhead is massive the element of fear of a mishit being too detrimental is evaporated...so we see almost everyone using velocity induced swings where the arms and hands are slapping through impact....
This can work for a finely tuned athlete who wants to beat balls each and every day to keep that timing in place...but for your average golfer who doesn't get to practice it is disaster
The clubs have been very detrimenatal to buildng and maintaining the golf muscles that are meant to be used when we swing a golf club.... lots to ponder about that, but distance is NOT the main goal of good golf...it is distance CONTROL we should be after and the light long delofted upright stuff does very few favours for 95% of the golf population even if we may gain 8 more yards...or so the selling slogan goes lol
[/quote]

Can't agree with you more re heavier stuff. I once bought a slightly used 3-wood and 5-wood with Dynamic Gold S300 shafts. Oh men, my swing looked good even if at that time I have no idea how to swing a golf club. Especially the laying-off part...it was a breeze...the only problem is I lost around 15 yards...that was when I realized i was using my arms and hands too much...with a heavy club, you and NBD are right, it is harder to use your arms and hands. Even if you do, it is almost like it didn't affect the club. Maybe Hogan truly wished for 3 R hands because he is using them...

The steel woods are still with me, but I'm not using it primarily because I cannot deal with the sudden change in club weight from woods to driver. I cannot solve the big discrepancy in feel. It turns everything off in my driver. So I decided to have a better transition from irons to woods (I use DG in irons). So I just got woods with the heavier type graphite shafts.

Yeah...I should buy a steel shaft for my driver...just for kicks...and maybe later for good...

[hoganfan924]

More, less, flatter,steeper, up, down, left, right are all relative terms unless precisely defined. In the context of golf swings they are all relative to what other players are doing. Of course Hogans downswing shoulder turn is steeper than his backswing shoulder turn, as is virtually every good player, but that's not we're talking about. You are the one that brought up reverse K, and getting left, I merely responded. How can you even claim that "his shoulders and body are more DTL," when they are more open one frame past impact than almost any other player?

Sometimes I think you just throw stuff out there to see what kind of response you'll get. I certainly don't need to post videos or sequences, yours are doing a fine job proving my points

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='tofur99' timestamp='1342442109' post='5284184']
I don't see any DTL releasing intentions here, looks to be turning open, club head (which is attached to his arms, which are attached to his body) comes back inside immediately post impact.



[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeFBj3361i8[/media]
[/quote]

Tofur,

The camera angle is more to the left. That way it will look more left. And since the camera is high, it will also look more low. Hence...the low and left "look"...

Imagine the camera angle more directly DTL and camera at elbow-height. It will look more DTL, although the club will exit more under the shoulders. But as I said above to HGfan, that is more a function of Hogan's shallow release planes pre and post-impact.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1342442289' post='5284200']
More, less, flatter,steeper, up, down, left, right are all relative terms unless precisely defined. In the context of golf swings they are all relative to what other players are doing. Of course Hogans downswing shoulder turn is steeper than his backswing shoulder turn, as is virtually every good player, but that's not we're talking about. You are the one that brought up reverse K, and getting left, I merely responded. How can you even claim that "his shoulders and body are more DTL," when they are more open one frame past impact than almost any other player?

Sometimes I think you just throw stuff out there to see what kind of response you'll get. I certainly don't need to post videos or sequences, yours are doing a fine job proving my points
[/quote]

No HGfan, you gotta show us vids and pics so we can learn better in here. I am not here just to argue, as some posters here are saying. I am truly and sincerely for learning. I am not in here just to critique or tell something is wrong. And for what its worth, I have tremendous respect for Slicefixer/Geoff Jones. So please don't get me wrong...not saying you are, just making sure...

It is just that I have my own mind in respect of some things, which I don't agree with...I'm sure you will also not agree to everything I say, as is obvious in here...but that is ok with me, truly and sincerely...

Re open shoulders at impact, as I have said, a still pic at impact showing an open shoulders tells us nothing HGfan. I can show a still pic of someone with shoulders open at impact, but when you see the video of his same swing, he may be turning his shoulders really vertical/upright. The open shoulders is just a function of pivoting earlier and faster...so the arms and clubhead is sorta left behind or trailing instead of leading...you've got to look at where the L and R shoulders came from and went after...

Look at Arnold Palmer's video posted up by Brad in his post above...Palmer has higher hands than Hogan to the extent that his L hand/wrist/forearm actually pronates at the finish...look at his shoulder turn---more vertical than Hogan...

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1342405877' post='5282720']
I think it would be difficult at best to turn the hips to start the DS and achieve flatter shoulders at impact. The early hip turn is accompanied by his R side bend and vertical shoulders through impact after that. I dont think it would produce the most efficient motion to do the first two of the three in that sequence, then stay in flexion and turn the shoulders level through the ball.
[/quote]

ROFL...I was re-reading your post and it really got me a laugh...lol

Yeah...Hogan turns his hips in transition...that got him into L side extension and R side bend early on...then you turn your shoulders low, level and flat...lol....yeah, what's the turning the hips for then? ...to turn the shoulders level and flat with that L side ext and R side bend...you gotta stand up...there you go, you got the clubhead so over plane you will whiff the ball.

Good point Gilly.

[bhughesgolf]

Here is a pretty decent quality video (1953 ? I believe at Tamarisk)...not 100% down the line view but pretty good.
I drew a line right across from a tree positioned in right corner of pic...snipped pics exact so there is no imbalance as far as top to bottom

Let you guys tak about what his shoulders do...where hands and shaft go etc
This is every frame available from top of swing to finish....so nothing left out that we can dispute or query.

[attachment=1259392:Hoganlevels.jpg]

I agree to some degree about the shoulders lifting up due to left side....this is what I would call the 'rocket launch' of the post impact work using the ground as a base to fire from..... a distinct crunching of the left obliques to keep the club pinned but accelerating with the pivot and not by hand throw... but the shoulders definitely turn level also because of the body range of motion he had available coming into impact

You can see the arms pinned here still....radius circle of butt of club to torso ratio still intact nicely...and the club starts climbing skyward becase of the post impact work desrcibed......riding the golden rainbow upwardson the other side of impact

[attachment=1259412:fairwaybunker.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342445358' post='5284432']
Here is a pretty decent quality video (1953 ? I believe at Tamarisk)...not 100% down the line view but pretty good.
I drew a line right across from a tree positioned in right corner of pic...snipped pics exact so there is no imbalance as far as top to bottom

Let you guys tak about what his shoulders do...where hands and shaft go etc
This is every frame available from top of swing to finish....so nothing left out that we can dispute or query.

[attachment=1259392:Hoganlevels.jpg]
[/quote]

Looks more vertical to me than low and level...

Wish the setup was included in the sequence though...do you have that Brad, from setup to top?

[svsvincenzo]

I have something to ask anyone...Brad you're most welcome to respond, I wish you would...How could Hogan turn his shoulders more level than more vertical if his neck tilts remains tilted more down to the ball? In other words, the part in between the thoracic/upper spine and cervical/neck spine where his shoulders turn are more parallel to the ground than perpendicular? So how could Hogan have turned his shoulders level/flat? Right from setup to takeaway to BS to top to transition to DS to impact and post-impact, Hogan MAINTAINS his neck tilts and maintains his eyes' DIRECT gaze to the ball. So, how could it be possible to turn his shoulders level? If Hogan turns his shoulders level, with that neck tilt and face facing down directly into the ball, and with Hogan's super fast pivot, his R shoulder would slap his face/R cheek/chin so hard he would fall down to the ground like Hatton getting caught by Pacquiao's fist...lol

[bhughesgolf]

I don't hae the start/to top of that Hogan swing...I would have to dig the video out and snip parts of it

But lets look at these pics below to see how --The hands/clubhead go low...the shoulders work level.....as opposed to hands/clubhead go high and shoulders go steep

See Hogan V Bubba....(red line is hand height).....(orage line is clubhead height)

Hogan works his shoulders level through strike (matching his hip rotation).......Bubba stalls his shoulders vertical through strike (hips /shoulders are totally misaligned)
Hogan hands work around with the turning torso (disappearing out of sight)...this pins the shaft and the clubhead stays lower
Bubba hands throw out down the line with the stalling torso....which increases the clubface rate of closure at a rapid rate
Hogan because the club comes through lower and he is rotating can use the left side ab crunch to continue his acceleration and continue the club with speed post impact so he will fly up high to finish
Bubba because the club comes through higher and he is stalling has nothing in his pivot, the hands fold the club to finish and the pivot just comes along and catches up to try finish in balance...(which Bubba rarely finishes in balance anyhow).... Bubba is up on both toes at impact and has lost balance because he is swinging the mass out and away from himself by using an arm and hand motion and release from a steeper plane down... Hogan has weight in his left heel and right toe for balance and is good as gold no matter how hard he wants to turn

[attachment=1259420:hoganbubba.JPG]

[attachment=1259422:hoganbubba1.jpg]

[svsvincenzo]

Bubba is vertical but he stalls the hips and pivot and fires through with his hands. He is forcing himself to turn his shoulders vertical because if he does not, with his hips stalling, he will be swinging very level, and that would make his clubhead path so left. Totally different with Hogan.

Hogan turns his hips, and as pointed out by Gilly, so that he immediately goes into L side ext, R side bend for a specific purpose---to turn his shoulders vertical for a less curved clubhead path. Why would anyone wants to turn the shoulders more level that will result to a more curved clubhead path? Gilly's right, why did Hogan have to turn his hips and go to L side ext and R side bend? For that level shoulder turn and more curved path?

What is Hogan hitting in the middle pic? You will notice that his head has already lost his neck tilt and his face is already started to look to the target. So his R shoulder goes up as well and thus his shoulder turn at that moment looks level. I would like to see all the other pics of that same swing. I would guess he stood up earlier than normal as he may be hitting a pull draw in there, or a pull fade, or a super-fade..he bended the baseline or path to the left a bit. The Hogan pic on the left I see a more vertical shoulder turn.

But look at these series of pics:

[attachment=1259480:gifhoganmexicodrawfadeimpact3.jpg]
[attachment=1259482:IMG_0501.jpg]
[attachment=1259468:79024760.jpg]
[attachment=1259470:gifhoganlifefaceonslowp8.5.jpg]
[attachment=1259476:post-28669-1199640144-1_thumb.jpg]
[attachment=1259474:IMG_0494.jpg]
[attachment=1259472:hogan_2011-11-27.jpg]
[attachment=1259478:pichoganmexicotop.jpg]
[attachment=1259466:001_Hogan.jpg]

[bhughesgolf]

When the club comes from more behind/around/shallower there are massive circular forces working in the feet.
When the club comes down steeper the forces in the feet are less... it is more of a swaying back/forth pressure with much less connection and intensity down below
This is a massive reason Hogans hips shoulders hands shaft are doing what they are doing
Bubba is more up down than around... he has less force in his feet to work with hence the up on the toes stop hips and into the vertical shoulders with arm/hand release
Things in the swing happen as a result of something else... kind of like opposites attract
I think paying too much attention to what is happening upstairs is neglecting the main ingredient that is allowing all this to happen and function as it is.... lots of vapor trail stuff in the swing

Hogan was a persimmon blade player all his life even into his 70's... His clubs were flat and he had one of the heaviest drivers going by all reports.... It all helped build his motion and is why people can hardly sniff his action no matter what they see think or try because they are using a lawnmower engine to try swing like a ferrari

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342435265' post='5283902']
Using Hogan and Palmer as an example.....they both flew the club up HIGH to finish point because they had two of the grestest strongest fastest post impact accelerations of anyone who playedthe game.

[attachment=1259336:hoganpalmer.JPG]

They had control of the club with strong hands and turned it around by tremendous ground pressures in their feet which allowed the pviot to absolutely rip post impact and bring the arms/hands/club along for the ride

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cN5-Zm8JY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t_cN5-Zm8JY[/url]

Watch Palmers pivot...watch his feet eventually give out and turn in the direction the pivot is pulling it

Once the pivot has reached it's max turning point then the arms have nowhere else to go but UP..........

[/quote]

Thanks for these great photos of Hogan and Palmer with the high finish. And I agree with the arms having no where to go but up after the pivot has maxed out, IF the hands do not go low and left, because if they did, the arms WOULD have some where else to go, namely a lot more to the left and not so much up as in these photos.

[nicebutdim]

Using Hogan and Palmer as an example.....they both flew the club up HIGH to finish point because they had two of the grestest strongest fastest post impact accelerations of anyone who playedthe game.

 

 

 

They had control of the club with strong hands and turned it around by tremendous ground pressures in their feet which allowed the pviot to absolutely rip post impact and bring the arms/hands/club along for the ride

 

[media=]

[/media]

 

Watch Palmers pivot...watch his feet eventually give out and turn in the direction the pivot is pulling it

 

Once the pivot has reached it's max turning point then the arms have nowhere else to go but UP..........

 

 

Thanks for these great photos of Hogan and Palmer with the high finish. And I agree with the arms having no where to go but up after the pivot has maxed out, IF the hands do not go low and left, because if they did, the arms WOULD have some where else to go, namely a lot more to the left and not so much up as in these photos.

 

All the pictures show Hogan swinging inside-square-inside. The hands and club shaft turn the corner with the hands low, and then from hip high they start to move up.

 

I'm not sure why you think its not possible for club path to swing low around the corner and then pull upwards? don't the pictures show this clearly?

 

If Hogan rolled his hands over like Mahan he'd turn the club flatter around him and this would be easier to see........ however I believe that because there is no strong rolling action post impact using the muscles of the right arm/shoulder/torso that the centrifugal forces pull the club upwards.

 

I know this has already been shown but how much lower and further left do you want the club to be post impact before this terminology applies?

 

[chrisgilly09]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LvA8Rna4DQ[/media]

Sorry I forgot how to embed a video *hmm, guess it worked lol

This is Mahan hitting a driver face on a couple months ago. The reason Hunter's club is so much lower after impact until near his finish is: Watch from P6.9-ish to P9 (just before impact until the club is nearing vertical in follow thru). Neither of his hips move forward at all, the left may even retract a bit. Watch what happens to his 2nd tilt during that time aswell; it virtually disappears. His shoulders are flattening out as a result of all this, hence the club is moving more around him to the finish.

I wouldn't say Hogan's hips never did this because I haven't seen as much video as others as well as conditions dictating shot shape, lie (uphill, downhill, etc). But the ones I have seen show Hogan's hips more forward and releasing his 1st tilt (extension) which helps him maintain axis tilt and help move the R hip forward to keep pressure on the club from turning over too quick.

Whew! Off to play, see ya'll later!

[wiko]

great images and information thanks

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1342459094' post='5286034']
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7LvA8Rna4DQ[/media]

[/quote]

@nicebutdim - this is what I would call low and left, which is why his hands are just barely above his head as he swings through to the finish.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342456835' post='5285766']

All the pictures show Hogan swinging inside-square-inside. The hands and club shaft turn the corner with the hands low, and then from hip high they start to move up.

I'm not sure why you think its not possible for club path to swing low around the corner and then pull upwards? don't the pictures show this clearly?

If Hogan rolled his hands over like Mahan he'd turn the club flatter around him and this would be easier to see........ however I believe that because there is no strong rolling action post impact using the muscles of the right arm/shoulder/torso that the centrifugal forces pull the club upwards.

I know this has already been shown but how much lower and further left do you want the club to be post impact before this terminology applies?

[/quote]

The more vertical the shoulder turn, the more vertical the clubhead goes as well. However, since there is a rolling of the L hand from being turned/open to vertical/inline with the ball at impact, which continues after impact, the clubhead doesn't go as vertical as the shoulders at the impact zone. However, that vertical shoulder turn of Hogan is the most that one can do to make the clubhead travel as close to DTL as possible without flinging away the arms and hands like a monkey. When the L elbow starts to bend post-impact, the clubhead returns to the direction the shoulders are turning, and when the L elbow fully bends, the hands goes high because the clubhead goes in that direction also. Since the clubhead was pulled and just tagging along for the ride of the shoulders, the clubhead never passes the the COG of the hands, hence the R forearm never pronates, hence the clubhead doesn't pass the hands until finish, the R forearm remains more supinated than pronated. Hogan had the clubface square for as long as possible and had the clubhead as close as possible to the target line. Key here is the non-stop and fast pivot (both hips and shoulders--the torso) at impact zone. However, to keep the shoulder turn vertical (to make the clubhead pass the target line as close as possible), you have to do the bends and the extensions. Also needed to keep the center where the shoulders turn very still and stable for maximum potential speed and consistent low point.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342501451' post='5290534']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1342456835' post='5285766']
All the pictures show Hogan swinging inside-square-inside. The hands and club shaft turn the corner with the hands low, and then from hip high they start to move up.

I'm not sure why you think its not possible for club path to swing low around the corner and then pull upwards? don't the pictures show this clearly?

If Hogan rolled his hands over like Mahan he'd turn the club flatter around him and this would be easier to see........ however I believe that because there is no strong rolling action post impact using the muscles of the right arm/shoulder/torso that the centrifugal forces pull the club upwards.

I know this has already been shown but how much lower and further left do you want the club to be post impact before this terminology applies?

[/quote]

The more vertical the shoulder turn, the more vertical the clubhead goes as well. However, since there is a rolling of the L hand from being turned/open to vertical/inline with the ball at impact, which continues after impact, the clubhead doesn't go as vertical as the shoulders at the impact zone. However, that vertical shoulder turn of Hogan is the most that one can do to make the clubhead travel as close to DTL as possible without flinging away the arms and hands like a monkey. When the L elbow starts to bend post-impact, the clubhead returns to the direction the shoulders are turning, and when the L elbow fully bends, the hands goes high because the clubhead goes in that direction also. Since the clubhead was pulled and just tagging along for the ride of the shoulders, the clubhead never passes the the COG of the hands, hence the R forearm never pronates, hence the clubhead doesn't pass the hands until finish, the R forearm remains more supinated than pronated. Hogan had the clubface square for as long as possible and had the clubhead as close as possible to the target line. Key here is the non-stop and fast pivot (both hips and shoulders--the torso) at impact zone. However, to keep the shoulder turn vertical (to make the clubhead pass the target line as close as possible), you have to do the bends and the extensions. Also needed to keep the center where the shoulders turn very still and stable for maximum potential speed and consistent low point.
[/quote]

You could be making some correct points here but this is all getting a bit too technical for me.

All that I think I know is that Hogan had flat equipment and he was swung close to the plain line going back........ when turning through impact he resisted centrifugal forces which kept his club close to his body hence the bent right elbow........ his hands returned to the low address position, so the hands were low because they started low due to the equipment......... the left and right hips turned hard through and the the hands stayed in front of the body (like you say, I think!) so they turn the corner with the hips.......... the left side extend hard vertically due to the forces of the swing and the arms start moving upwards with the body.......... and eventually the arms and shoulders fully release and get slung skywards at the top.............

This is my reading of the situation and some things are based on fairly educated assumptions though they might not be 100% accurate........

This LOW & LEFT is not that important really, its semantics as far as I'm concerned. Having a one plane 'swinger' action like Mahan where the upper body and hands/arms are actively muscled flat post impact is neither here nor there to me........... different swings, different pressure and different intentions. Hogan swung inside-square-inside which is the norm for his swing dynamics.

Anyway good debate, forced me to really analyze some things in greater detail than normal.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342451715' post='5285076']
When the club comes from more behind/around/shallower there are massive circular forces working in the feet.
When the club comes down steeper the forces in the feet are less... it is more of a swaying back/forth pressure with much less connection and intensity down below
This is a massive reason Hogans hips shoulders hands shaft are doing what they are doing
Bubba is more up down than around... he has less force in his feet to work with hence the up on the toes stop hips and into the vertical shoulders with arm/hand release
Things in the swing happen as a result of something else... kind of like opposites attract
I think paying too much attention to what is happening upstairs is neglecting the main ingredient that is allowing all this to happen and function as it is.... lots of vapor trail stuff in the swing

Hogan was a persimmon blade player all his life even into his 70's... His clubs were flat and he had one of the heaviest drivers going by all reports.... It all helped build his motion and is why people can hardly sniff his action no matter what they see think or try because they are using a lawnmower engine to try swing like a ferrari
[/quote]

Hogan's CLUBHEAD came in more shallow. Hogan's SHOULDERS came in more steep/vertical.

Hogan's CLUBHEAD came in more shallow because in transition the R shoulder and R forearm dropped down more vertically WHILE the L wrist c0ck is maintained/retained---the Hogan lag, thus saving the clubhead for later roll/release. The clubhead moved more vertically (due to the R shoulder coming down more vertically), BUT the shaft didn't steepen or become more vertical. The WHOLE shaft came down more vertically TOGETHER with the clubhead attached to it. In fact, in Hogan's case, the shaft even became more horizontal or flat or parallel to the ground. Why? It is because his shoulder turn or plane became less steep/vertical when he turned his hips in transition. This coming down more vertically of the whole assembly---the R shoulder, R forearm, R hand, the WHOLE club (grip, shaft and clubhead) enabled Hogan to save the clubhead from doing its out and forward action (rotary part) for later. Some call this the vertical drop. This puts the clubhead on a very shallow plane---the elbow plane. This removed the detrimental vertical element in the clubhead, thus enabling the clubhead to release very shallow, hence exposing a substantially more portion of the sweetspot to the ball. Its much better to hit the ball with the clubhead in a horizontal manner rather than in a vertical manner. If you hit the ball vertically with the clubhead, you will hit 12 o'çlock of the ball...the ball won't go. If you hit the ball horizontally, it will be smack with the sweetspot and the ball will go far. So Hogan wanted that more shallow/horizontal strike of the CLUBHEAD. Hogan both had the beneficial effects of a more vertical SHOULDER turn (i.e., more straight/DTL clubhead path) and benefits of a more shallow/horizontal movement/approach/strike of the CLUBHEAD (i.e., more accurate strike/exposure of the sweetspot to the ball, and the greater "bang" of the strike).

In short, I don't see any inconsistency between a more vertical shoulder turn/plane vis-a-vis and a flattened shaft/club in transition. Vertical shoulder turn doesn't mean you have to have or you will have a steep shaft.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1342532384' post='5291624']
[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1342451715' post='5285076']
When the club comes from more behind/around/shallower there are massive circular forces working in the feet.
When the club comes down steeper the forces in the feet are less... it is more of a swaying back/forth pressure with much less connection and intensity down below
This is a massive reason Hogans hips shoulders hands shaft are doing what they are doing
Bubba is more up down than around... he has less force in his feet to work with hence the up on the toes stop hips and into the vertical shoulders with arm/hand release
Things in the swing happen as a result of something else... kind of like opposites attract
I think paying too much attention to what is happening upstairs is neglecting the main ingredient that is allowing all this to happen and function as it is.... lots of vapor trail stuff in the swing

Hogan was a persimmon blade player all his life even into his 70's... His clubs were flat and he had one of the heaviest drivers going by all reports.... It all helped build his motion and is why people can hardly sniff his action no matter what they see think or try because they are using a lawnmower engine to try swing like a ferrari
[/quote]

Hogan's CLUBHEAD came in more shallow. Hogan's SHOULDERS came in more steep/vertical.

Hogan's CLUBHEAD came in more shallow because in transition the R shoulder and R forearm dropped down more vertically WHILE the L wrist c0ck is maintained/retained---the Hogan lag, thus saving the clubhead for later roll/release. The clubhead moved more vertically (due to the R shoulder coming down more vertically), BUT the shaft didn't steepen or become more vertical. The WHOLE shaft came down more vertically TOGETHER with the clubhead attached to it. In fact, in Hogan's case, the shaft even became more horizontal or flat or parallel to the ground. Why? It is because his shoulder turn or plane became less steep/vertical when he turned his hips in transition. This coming down more vertically of the whole assembly---the R shoulder, R forearm, R hand, the WHOLE club (grip, shaft and clubhead) enabled Hogan to save the clubhead from doing its out and forward action (rotary part) for later. Some call this the vertical drop. This puts the clubhead on a very shallow plane---the elbow plane. This removed the detrimental vertical element in the clubhead, thus enabling the clubhead to release very shallow, hence exposing a substantially more portion of the sweetspot to the ball. Its much better to hit the ball with the clubhead in a horizontal manner rather than in a vertical manner. If you hit the ball vertically with the clubhead, you will hit 12 o'çlock of the ball...the ball won't go. If you hit the ball horizontally, it will be smack with the sweetspot and the ball will go far. So Hogan wanted that more shallow/horizontal strike of the CLUBHEAD. Hogan both had the beneficial effects of a more vertical SHOULDER turn (i.e., more straight/DTL clubhead path) and benefits of a more shallow/horizontal movement/approach/strike of the CLUBHEAD (i.e., more accurate strike/exposure of the sweetspot to the ball, and the greater "bang" of the strike).

In short, I don't see any inconsistency between a more vertical shoulder turn/plane vis-a-vis and a flattened shaft/club in transition. Vertical shoulder turn doesn't mean you have to have or you will have a steep shaft.
[/quote]

I could be wrong here.............

but don't almost all good golfer have shoulders steeper to the club? Just quickly double checked Snead, Tiger and David Toms and its true for them.

Actually in comparison Hogan seems to have only marginally little difference between the angle of both. I'm starting to get the impression that all this technical analysis you're writing is somewhat unimportant and superfluous to whats being discussed.

BH is talking about how flat equipment which is shallowed on the downswing allows a player with the correct intentions to create tremendous circular forces which dictates the movements in his swing............ and likewise the more upright back-and-forth forces created by Bubba results in something different...... I don't think shoulder angle and club angle is relevant at least not in the way you're analyzing it (modern players come in with much steeper shoulders than Hogan).......... I believe you're just making a random observation.

[svsvincenzo]

That's exactly what I'm saying. I was responding to Brad's post where he is sorta saying a more vertical shoulder turn will steepen the shaft. (Brad please correct me if I'm wrong.) I am saying I disagree. Hogan had more vertical shoulder turn but still flattened his shaft in transition and had a shallow approach in DS/release/impact.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Ryo Ishikawa