Hogan's folding left arm post impact - was it a key?

[hoganfan924]

Andy Plummer (Tiltmaestro) claimed Hogan straightened the right leg a few years ago in the original S&T thread. S&T'rs still believe this. He showed a few photo's taken from bad angles with Hogan wearing the baggy pants to try and "prove" his point. Obvious that Hogan's knee is straining the front of the pant leg so if you draw a line from his ankle joint to knee joint and then to hip joint, the flex in the leg is pretty clear. Even a carpenter's square will appear straight if looked at on edge! He also claimed that Hogan "sprung up through impact" when he clearly remained with a lot of flex in his front leg at impact. Plummer showed a picture of Hogan at the finish to "prove" that point as well. lol

If you want to see how much true flex is in the right knee, the best camera angle is one that is about a 3/4 rear view, like this one, IMO:
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L459G5vwrbU&feature=plcp[/media]

The S&T guys claim that maintaining the flex is too restrictive to the BS pivot (and it probably is for the kind of pivot they teach), but IMO it's because they don't teach the kind of pivot shown in this video.

Hogan wrote in Power Golf and 5L to maintain the same orientation of the right leg in the backswing he had at address. He also wrote that he had (if my memory is correct) 85% of his weight into his right leg in the backswing.

Just goes to show that many people see what they want to see and try to force fit "evidence" to support their pre-conceived beliefs instead of objectively looking at the evidence before developing their conclusions.

[svsvincenzo]

R leg straightening is being advocated by Stack and Tilt, whose purpose is to add hip turn and consequently shoulder turn. I think you better study many things. If you don't, please don't think you know and you've encountered everything. SnT is pretty much popular, I am amazed you haven't heard of the straightening the R leg/knee move. You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.

If you maintain the angle of the R leg in the BS, you will actually be forced to get the R hip back and towards the target. The Hogan counter fall. Keeping your hips still while turning your shoulders and not able to make this happen only means one thing, you are turning your shoulders too level, you're keeping the forward flexion and not L side bending enough. This causes your torso to "bend over" on the side of your R leg (away from the target), causing your COG to shift right. So, you won't be able to counter fall to the left. That also locks your R hip, and most likely put the pressure on the outside of your R foot. Keeping the weight inside the R foot is key also. You have to evert/pronate the R lower leg bones.

[TEConnor]

I'm of the opinion that what makes Hogan's left-hand grip important is the fact (as he describes at length in 5L) that it is in his fingers and that the strength of the grip is not as critical. If you believe, as I do, that the folding of the left arm is important, one can achieve that folding and the free-wheeling release it signifies with an emphasis on left upper-arm connection to torso around impact (see my post early on re: this). One can achieve that left arm fold with a 1-3 knuckle left-hand grip as long as the club lays across the fingers properly. In addition, for proper setting of the club (and access to the automated slotting of the club in response to the hip/glute/tailbone/upperleg/leftside-unwinding transition) the right hand grip is equally important. As important as the left-hand finger grip, one must get the right hand with the right trigger formed and the connection of the hands together as shown in 5L (and by slicefixer).

Not to belabor a point, but the weakness of a grip is a subjective element that can be influenced from many things and perspectives (geometrical, anatomical, grip size, setup, alignments, etc.). Try an experiment if you do not believe me: take a small grip and a jumbo grip and film yourself doing what you believe is a 1 knuckle and a 3 knuckle left hand (top) grip using several camera angles including one from FO and two others varying 10 degrees away from FO +/-; now also vary your setup in three ways -- a) hands very low and hands very high, b) hands forward pressed and hands in-line with ball, and c) face closed at setup and face open without changing grip strength. Now try to identify from the pictures which of the grips was truly weak and which was strong. I think you will find (I did when I attempted this experiment years ago and lost a bet...haha) that what one believes is a strong grip often is weak and vice versa relative the the knuckles in the left hand.

Cheers,
Tim

[svsvincenzo]

I think the true measure whether a grip is weak or not is the orientation of the back of the L hand and the clubFACE. Hogan's are pretty much square to each other. Schlee said the same thing. We must also remember that when Hogan said the V of the L hand points to his R eye, his clubFACE is 5 degrees open. To me that estimates that the back of L hand is square to the face, whether you have mid body hands, high hands or forward hands at setup.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343751354' post='5384204']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343749919' post='5384108']
[snip]You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.[/snip]
[/quote]

Is there an emoticon for condescension? Perhaps you could use that in the future...save you some grey matter.

...maybe a combo: [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url]


Cheers,
Tim
[/quote]

That was Dim's phraseology...

[drewspin]

Curious, where did the statement that Hogan's club face is 5* open come from?

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343749919' post='5384108']
R leg straightening is being advocated by Stack and Tilt, whose purpose is to add hip turn and consequently shoulder turn. I think you better study many things. If you don't, please don't think you know and you've encountered everything. SnT is pretty much popular, I am amazed you haven't heard of the straightening the R leg/knee move. You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.

If you maintain the angle of the R leg in the BS, you will actually be forced to get the R hip back and towards the target. The Hogan counter fall. Keeping your hips still while turning your shoulders and not able to make this happen only means one thing, you are turning your shoulders too level, you're keeping the forward flexion and not L side bending enough. This causes your torso to "bend over" on the side of your R leg (away from the target), causing your COG to shift right. So, you won't be able to counter fall to the left. That also locks your R hip, and most likely put the pressure on the outside of your R foot. Keeping the weight inside the R foot is key also. You have to evert/pronate the R lower leg bones.
[/quote]

Now now no need to be petty.............

I've got issues with what you say about backshifting.......... Tiger doesn't do it and he doesn't go to the outside of his right foot........... do any good players? But you seem pretty set in you views and I'm not fully developed enough in my own................. the players who do it noticeably are all deep right hip pivoting gravity drop players, as opposed to steeper modern players that pull the handle.......... I'll let others decide what they think.

btw I don't think I know everything or have experienced everything, for a guy who's lived in 5 different countries that would be pretty naive........ I'll leave that attitude to you.......... I just said that I've never heard anyone of note say Hogan straightened his right leg........ Hogan even says this in his books and you can't get much clearer than that........ no argument to settle here as far as I was aware.......... S&T might do it but if their reason for doing so is because its what Hogan did then that is pretty stupid IMHO, and this seems to be what you're implying.

[hoganfan924]

Hogan also said in 5L that the weakening of his left hand was a "personal modification" and not a fundamental and stated it was the truly fortunate golfer who needed to make the fewest modifications. Seems most 5L followers who attempt the Hogan grip overlook this important point and end up as chronic slicers. Read carefully, Hogan is basically advocating that most golfers use his Power Golf grip.

Grip strength is highly personal, IMO and depends on a lot of anatomical and swing dynamic factors. Some folks have hands that naturally hang much more "inward" than others, etc.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1343751666' post='5384230']
Curious, where did the statement that Hogan's club face is 5* open come from?
[/quote]

Hmmm...good question, forgot already...did Vasquez mention it? Can't really remember. All I remember is if the face is square, the reminder on Hogan's grip is at 5-530 or something. Looks like around 5degrees open.

[TEConnor]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343751562' post='5384220']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343751354' post='5384204']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343749919' post='5384108']
[snip]You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.[/snip]
[/quote]

Is there an emoticon for condescension? Perhaps you could use that in the future...save you some grey matter.

...maybe a combo: [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url]


Cheers,
Tim
[/quote]

That was Dim's phraseology...
[/quote]

Fair enough...gotta have some fun. It is a GAME right? Easy to forget that sometimes...

Tim

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343752082' post='5384276']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343751562' post='5384220']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343751354' post='5384204']


Is there an emoticon for condescension? Perhaps you could use that in the future...save you some grey matter.

...maybe a combo: [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url] + [url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/index.php?&app=forums&module=extras&section=legends#"] [/url]


Cheers,
Tim
[/quote]

That was Dim's phraseology...
[/quote]

Fair enough...gotta have some fun. It is a GAME right? Easy to forget that sometimes...

Tim
[/quote]

Good point............. sometimes I forget it isn't a life and death battle of egos........... saying that you should see me playing pool and table tennis, intense stuff!

p.s. he was being condescending, and it hurt my feelings sniff sniff

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343751670' post='5384232']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343749919' post='5384108']
R leg straightening is being advocated by Stack and Tilt, whose purpose is to add hip turn and consequently shoulder turn. I think you better study many things. If you don't, please don't think you know and you've encountered everything. SnT is pretty much popular, I am amazed you haven't heard of the straightening the R leg/knee move. You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.

If you maintain the angle of the R leg in the BS, you will actually be forced to get the R hip back and towards the target. The Hogan counter fall. Keeping your hips still while turning your shoulders and not able to make this happen only means one thing, you are turning your shoulders too level, you're keeping the forward flexion and not L side bending enough. This causes your torso to "bend over" on the side of your R leg (away from the target), causing your COG to shift right. So, you won't be able to counter fall to the left. That also locks your R hip, and most likely put the pressure on the outside of your R foot. Keeping the weight inside the R foot is key also. You have to evert/pronate the R lower leg bones.
[/quote]

Now now no need to be petty.............

I've got issues with what you say about backshifting.......... Tiger doesn't do it and he doesn't go to the outside of his right foot........... do any good players? But you seem pretty set in you views and I'm not fully developed enough in my own................. the players who do it noticeably are all deep right hip pivoting gravity drop players, as opposed to steeper modern players that pull the handle.......... I'll let others decide what they think.

btw I don't think I know everything or have experienced everything, for a guy who's lived in 5 different countries that would be pretty naive........ I'll leave that attitude to you.......... I just said that I've never heard anyone of note say Hogan straightened his right leg........ Hogan even says this in his books and you can't get much clearer than that........ no argument to settle here as far as I was aware.......... S&T might do it but if their reason for doing so is because its what Hogan did then that is pretty stupid IMHO, and this seems to be what you're implying.
[/quote]

You need to cool down.

I actually disagree with SnT on the straightening of the R leg/knee.

I have my own ideas, yes, and it's pretty set, yes, but it surely is ain't law to me. I also understand you like anybody else has their own ideas...but that's ok with me.

Tiger doesn't do what? He's turning his shoulders really upright now, he's L side bending, and he's certainly not in forward flexion on top. But he's keeping the weight left.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343752510' post='5384316']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343751670' post='5384232']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343749919' post='5384108']
R leg straightening is being advocated by Stack and Tilt, whose purpose is to add hip turn and consequently shoulder turn. I think you better study many things. If you don't, please don't think you know and you've encountered everything. SnT is pretty much popular, I am amazed you haven't heard of the straightening the R leg/knee move. You better use your grey matter and study those things...IMO, you'll learn a lot.

If you maintain the angle of the R leg in the BS, you will actually be forced to get the R hip back and towards the target. The Hogan counter fall. Keeping your hips still while turning your shoulders and not able to make this happen only means one thing, you are turning your shoulders too level, you're keeping the forward flexion and not L side bending enough. This causes your torso to "bend over" on the side of your R leg (away from the target), causing your COG to shift right. So, you won't be able to counter fall to the left. That also locks your R hip, and most likely put the pressure on the outside of your R foot. Keeping the weight inside the R foot is key also. You have to evert/pronate the R lower leg bones.
[/quote]

Now now no need to be petty.............

I've got issues with what you say about backshifting.......... Tiger doesn't do it and he doesn't go to the outside of his right foot........... do any good players? But you seem pretty set in you views and I'm not fully developed enough in my own................. the players who do it noticeably are all deep right hip pivoting gravity drop players, as opposed to steeper modern players that pull the handle.......... I'll let others decide what they think.

btw I don't think I know everything or have experienced everything, for a guy who's lived in 5 different countries that would be pretty naive........ I'll leave that attitude to you.......... I just said that I've never heard anyone of note say Hogan straightened his right leg........ Hogan even says this in his books and you can't get much clearer than that........ no argument to settle here as far as I was aware.......... S&T might do it but if their reason for doing so is because its what Hogan did then that is pretty stupid IMHO, and this seems to be what you're implying.
[/quote]

You need to cool down.

I actually disagree with SnT on the straightening of the R leg/knee.

I have my own ideas, yes, and it's pretty set, yes, but it surely is ain't law to me. I also understand you like anybody else has their own ideas...but that's ok with me.

Tiger doesn't do what? He's turning his shoulders really upright now, he's L side bending, and he's certainly not in forward flexion on top. But he's keeping the weight left.
[/quote]

Tiger doesn't discernibly backshift or shift to the outside of his right foot.

I think I acknowledged you have your own ideas, and I acknowledged that I have mine, and others should decide for themselves............ I think its you who needs to calm down a bit.

btw calling someone a know-it-all who in fact is ignorant, and then suggesting they go away and learn some more doesn't usually elicit very position reactions from poeple........ I think I'm being plenty calm thank you.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343752082' post='5384276']

Fair enough...gotta have some fun. It is a GAME right? Easy to forget that sometimes...

Tim
[/quote]

Just want to give it back to Dim, though he said it to Tyler whom I admire for just laughing it off...guess my point is nobody's perfect, so no need to call each other not using their grey matter or something.

Sorry for being Francis...lol

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343753159' post='5384378']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343752082' post='5384276']
Fair enough...gotta have some fun. It is a GAME right? Easy to forget that sometimes...

Tim
[/quote]

Just want to give it back to Dim, though he said it to Tyler whom I admire for just laughing it off...guess my point is nobody's perfect, so no need to call each other not using their grey matter or something.

Sorry for being Francis...lol
[/quote]

Tyler I deeply regret and apologize for my actions.

........... now please call off your henchman

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343752929' post='5384358']

Tiger doesn't discernibly backshift or shift to the outside of his right foot.

I think I acknowledged you have your own ideas, and I acknowledged that I have mine, and others should decide for themselves............ I think its you who needs to calm down a bit.

btw calling someone a know-it-all who in fact is ignorant, and then suggesting they go away and learn some more doesn't usually elicit very position reactions from poeple........ I think I'm being plenty calm thank you.
[/quote]

Yes, because Tiger maintains and increases his weight on the L leg in BS now. So he won't back shift. If he didn't maintain the weight on the L leg, he will. That's why it's called a back shift, you shift right, then you shift back to left. Tiger didn't shift right, so he didn't shift back left...lol

Thank you for being calm.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343753581' post='5384408']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343752929' post='5384358']
Tiger doesn't discernibly backshift or shift to the outside of his right foot.

I think I acknowledged you have your own ideas, and I acknowledged that I have mine, and others should decide for themselves............ I think its you who needs to calm down a bit.

btw calling someone a know-it-all who in fact is ignorant, and then suggesting they go away and learn some more doesn't usually elicit very position reactions from poeple........ I think I'm being plenty calm thank you.
[/quote]

Yes, because Tiger maintains and increases his weight on the L leg in BS now. So he won't back shift. If he didn't maintain the weight on the L leg, he will. [b]That's why it's called a back shift, you shift right, then you shift back to left. Tiger didn't shift right, so he didn't shift back left...lol[/b]

Thank you for being calm.
[/quote]

not exactly my definition of backshifting.......... i.e. backing the hips linearly towards the target before rotation occurs.......... anyways I'm off to bed, long day tomorrow.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343753427' post='5384394']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343753159' post='5384378']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343752082' post='5384276']
Fair enough...gotta have some fun. It is a GAME right? Easy to forget that sometimes...

Tim
[/quote]

Just want to give it back to Dim, though he said it to Tyler whom I admire for just laughing it off...guess my point is nobody's perfect, so no need to call each other not using their grey matter or something.

Sorry for being Francis...lol
[/quote]

Tyler I deeply regret and apologize for my actions.

........... now please call off your henchman
[/quote]

Lol nice work, I really hope that was in reference to the greatest press conference of all time:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs8nseNP4s0"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs8nseNP4s0[/url]

[tylerdurden]

I just thought of something I think is interesting.

While I don't think you need a weak grip to have Hogan dyanamics in your swing (meaning leverage and a Hogan look through impact), I do think a weak grip can increase the Hogan-ness of your swing for the following reason.

I think it helps to roll (pronate/forearm rotation - I don't know the difference it's all just a feel to me so I apologize if this is vague) the club on the backswing, so the shaft is shallow while the arms are still connected (IMO, more connected arms and a deep pivot want to steepen the shaft, so the roll offsets this).

This is important because the proper pivot will then naturally shallow the shaft further in the transition and during the downswing. And that's important because you need to be on the elbow plane to have the Hogan style release, not above it.

So back to the weak grip, the weaker the grip, the more forearm/roll you can have while maintaining arm connection. So that means you can shallow it further than if your grip was stronger (assuming you maintain upper arm connection).

Now granted, you can still shallow the club plenty in the backswing via forearm rotation even with a strong grip. But maybe a weaker grip will allow you (as in me) to shallow the club even more OR to shallow the club the same amount while maintaining better arm connection?

Interesting.

[JBOMB808]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343762232' post='5385194']
I just thought of something I think is interesting.

While I don't think you need a weak grip to have Hogan dyanamics in your swing (meaning leverage and a Hogan look through impact), I do think a weak grip can increase the Hogan-ness of your swing for the following reason.

I think it helps to roll (pronate/forearm rotation - I don't know the difference it's all just a feel to me so I apologize if this is vague) the club on the backswing, so the shaft is shallow while the arms are still connected (IMO, more connected arms and a deep pivot want to steepen the shaft, so the roll offsets this).

This is important because the [b]proper pivot will then naturally shallow the shaft[/b] further in the transition and during the downswing. And that's important because you need to be on the elbow plane to have the Hogan style release, not above it.

So back to the weak grip, the weaker the grip, the more forearm/roll you can have while maintaining arm connection. So that means you can shallow it further than if your grip was stronger (assuming you maintain upper arm connection).

Now granted, you can still shallow the club plenty in the backswing via forearm rotation even with a strong grip. But maybe a weaker grip will allow you (as in me) to shallow the club even more OR to shallow the club the same amount while maintaining better arm connection?

Interesting.
[/quote]

Excellent post. Very interesting statement. That's exactly how I feel. I believe what you posted is Hogan's [i]'Free ride'[/i]. George Knudson, Hogan's protege, talks about this [i]'freedom'[/i] for the hands to do what they are meant to do instead of being forced what to do. Brilliant stuff. That's a good enough reason why Hogan started with the grip in 5L.

[drewspin]

If you watch the grid slow motion sqequences of Knudson in this video -

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbdbju07IDo[/media]

You can see very well how he uses the hands just as the club starts down to shallow the club. Watch at 20-22 seconds from the caddy view, and 44--46 for the up-the-line view, and pay attention to the way the club HEAD moves as it begins the downswing in the up-the-line view.

Pay VERY close attention to the path the hands take (under the shoulders) from the up-the-line view at 47-48 seconds. This is a great view of an important action.

In his maximum golf video, Schlee has a short segment on the hands and how they work to execute his "world class move."

The proper pivot makes room for the right elbow to move forward and creates some "space", but you've got to watch the hands also.... another reason the grip is so key.

[ALIF]

I have a few more hours of work them I'm going to the range to see if the super slotting works like it did yesterday. I'll hit my driver this time too. I'm kind of excited. Whatever this super slotting thing is, it seems to drop the club in the right slot ever time. Wish me luck. Lol.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343771093' post='5386174']
I have a few more hours of work them I'm going to the range to see if the super slotting works like it did yesterday. I'll hit my driver this time too. I'm kind of excited. Whatever this super slotting thing is, it seems to drop the club in the right slot ever time. Wish me luck. Lol.
[/quote]

Video please

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1343770486' post='5386122']
If you watch the grid slow motion sqequences of Knudson in this video -

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vbdbju07IDo[/media]

You can see very well how he uses the hands just as the club starts down to shallow the club. Watch at 20-22 seconds from the caddy view, and 44--46 for the up-the-line view, and pay attention to the way the club HEAD moves as it begins the downswing in the up-the-line view.

Pay VERY close attention to the path the hands take (under the shoulders) from the up-the-line view at 47-48 seconds. This is a great view of an important action.

In his maximum golf video, Schlee has a short segment on the hands and how they work to execute his "world class move."

The proper pivot makes room for the right elbow to move forward and creates some "space", but you've got to watch the hands also.... another reason the grip is so key.
[/quote]

I agree the hand action and the grip are important.

My goal though is to make the hands 100% reactive for almost all of the swing, like slicefixer talks about. I don't want to have to do any funny business with my hands, other than start my takeaway like hogan says in 5L.

I don't know what "super slotting" is, but the last thing I want to think of is rotating my forearms in transition because it's just one more thing to time that I believe can be automated.

[ALIF]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343772339' post='5386286']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343771093' post='5386174']
I have a few more hours of work them I'm going to the range to see if the super slotting works like it did yesterday. I'll hit my driver this time too. I'm kind of excited. Whatever this super slotting thing is, it seems to drop the club in the right slot ever time. Wish me luck. Lol.
[/quote]

Video please
[/quote]

Ok, it'll be w/ my i pad. I hope that will give a good enough picture. Wow, now I'm a little nervous b/c I know you guys are going to see what a hack I really am:)

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343774083' post='5386398']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343772339' post='5386286']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343771093' post='5386174']
I have a few more hours of work them I'm going to the range to see if the super slotting works like it did yesterday. I'll hit my driver this time too. I'm kind of excited. Whatever this super slotting thing is, it seems to drop the club in the right slot ever time. Wish me luck. Lol.
[/quote]

Video please
[/quote]

Ok, it'll be w/ my i pad. I hope that will give a good enough picture. Wow, now I'm a little nervous b/c I know you guys are going to see what a hack I really am:)
[/quote]

I'm proud of you, no need to be nervous.

[ALIF]

Well, I'm sure I'll get some good advice on how to improve.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343774241' post='5386420']
Well, I'm sure I'll get some good advice on how to improve.
[/quote]

And a bunch of bad advice too. No way around that. Our job is to have a good filter to know what is junk and what isn't.

[eightiron]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343741237' post='5383394']


Looks like both you guys are scared to post a swing.


[/quote]

Been posted long time ago , foot in mouth

[chrisgilly09]

You mean we have to read over all your 2k posts?? Lol seen it here, solid as a rock.