Hogan's folding left arm post impact - was it a key?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343833037' post='5389714']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343832855' post='5389690']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1343831999' post='5389598']
Snt are setting up with axis tilt now and using pitch elbow, Tim , it's all changed rofl
[/quote]

They still advocate the "Stack" (based on latest DVDs) and have been using pitch elbow ever since (based on the book and new DVDs, they want the R elbow to be always in front and never get far from the ribcage, keep the R armpit connection)...what do you mean? Please clarify...
[/quote]

When they first hooked up with the Medicus guys, they put out a TGM components list of the model S&T pattern. Punch elbow, hitters pattern.

Now they want 5 deg. axis tilt with a driver, per the "golf evolution" youtube video.
[/quote]

Golf Evolution? Is that SnT, or the "rebels"?

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343831190' post='5389522']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343829860' post='5389398']
I know............ this is such a red herring.

Hogan doesn't swing his shoulders flat, they are just flatter (or less steep, lol) than players with more upright swings that flip the club through impact............. if you have a pivot dominated swing, on right elbow plane at impact, then this connection will mean the shoulders and hips will not be at very different angles............ obviously not the case for all the modern swingers that throw the arms away from them and get the right shoulder very under.

Hogan had a flat swing, using flat clubs, and he stayed connected, hence his shoulders aren't steep at impact, especially relative to his hips.
[/quote]

Look at his L shoulder. Turn truly below that plane of glass. As I've said, its just that his R shoulder is low on top because his R foot is retracted (very closed stance) for drivers. And the Shell match clip posted by HGFan is SUPER-STRETCHED. This came from someone who has actually seen Hogan played in person.

Looks like very on the plane of glass in here:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/media]

There's the evidence. Plus what Hogan said in 5L.

Question: What's with the flat clubs equals flat shoulder turn plane? Are you saying Dim that having flat clubs, hence lower hands at setup will make the shoulder turn also lower/flatter?
[/quote]

terrible camera angle. From a face-on view, the left arm and shoulders would appear to be turning completely vertical too, would you use that for evidence? Like looking at the edge of a carpenter's square.

Find true DTL views and put the plane on them. Then you'll see.

[nicebutdim]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343832671' post='5389658']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343832538' post='5389642']
I think I explained why pretty clearly............ horses for courses my friend......... better for some, most even, but not others........ and if it helps you strike the ball better and shoot better scores then great.......... sometimes chasing one specific ideal can ruin a swing, despite what Hogan thought in 5 Lessons............ I know this is probably sacrilege on a Hogan forum, but its honestly what I think........ feel versus real is a tricky thing, and like Snead I sometimes don't want to look at Hogan because it can do funny things to my rhythm.
[/quote]

No Dim, its not a matter of different strokes for different folks. Its a matter of simplifying your swing. Why add an intentional loop if there is a way to make it happen no matter what? Of course if you can't figure it out or can't do it, intentional loop is ok.
[/quote]

Thats your opinion of course (?).......... simple for one person can be weird for another.......... a bit like many factors can affect an individuals ability to automatically and consistently find the slot........ rhythm, tempo, intentions, individual physiology, feelings.......... its sometimes weird how you can find it and the path there is not always the same............ looping makes total sense to me and has worked very well for me........... though I've found another way which is totally individual to my learning process though I have to focus just as hard on other swing feels and intentions.......... I'm just warning to not ruin other important aspects of your swing in the search....... trying to swing like Hogan can sometimes end up making your swing disconnect from itself......... the path isn't always a straight one.

[TEConnor]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343832149' post='5389614']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343831810' post='5389584']

An upright exit shoulder turn (ala Bubba in bhughes' posts from earlier) is critical for SnT because they square the club with the hands. If they tried to turn that shoulder more like Hogan, they'd be toast...

Tim
[/quote]

Ok. So an upright shoulder turn exit pretty much squares the face despite doing it with the arms. Yup, agree on that (though that's not what SnT teach, they actually don't want active hands).

So, if an upright shoulder turn exit pretty much helps square the face longer despite some things going on that closes the face, why would that be detrimental to Hogan? Can you explain please?
[/quote]

Not what I said. Disagree totally. Nice job twisting my words. I understand SnT has changed...should have said "used to teach." Getting pretty tired of this...

Tim

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343833506' post='5389754']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343831190' post='5389522']
[quote name='nicebutdim' timestamp='1343829860' post='5389398']
I know............ this is such a red herring.

Hogan doesn't swing his shoulders flat, they are just flatter (or less steep, lol) than players with more upright swings that flip the club through impact............. if you have a pivot dominated swing, on right elbow plane at impact, then this connection will mean the shoulders and hips will not be at very different angles............ obviously not the case for all the modern swingers that throw the arms away from them and get the right shoulder very under.

Hogan had a flat swing, using flat clubs, and he stayed connected, hence his shoulders aren't steep at impact, especially relative to his hips.
[/quote]

Look at his L shoulder. Turn truly below that plane of glass. As I've said, its just that his R shoulder is low on top because his R foot is retracted (very closed stance) for drivers. And the Shell match clip posted by HGFan is SUPER-STRETCHED. This came from someone who has actually seen Hogan played in person.

Looks like very on the plane of glass in here:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/media]

There's the evidence. Plus what Hogan said in 5L.

Question: What's with the flat clubs equals flat shoulder turn plane? Are you saying Dim that having flat clubs, hence lower hands at setup will make the shoulder turn also lower/flatter?
[/quote]

terrible camera angle. From a face-on view, the left arm and shoulders would appear to be turning completely vertical too, would you use that for evidence? Like looking at the edge of a carpenter's square.

Find true DTL views and put the plane on them. Then you'll see.
[/quote]

The height of the camera is perfect, which is more important. If its DTL it will look even more upright. The one you posted (Shell match) is not only super-stretched, the camera is actually high. So it will look more flat.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343833839' post='5389782']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343832149' post='5389614']
[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343831810' post='5389584']
An upright exit shoulder turn (ala Bubba in bhughes' posts from earlier) is critical for SnT because they square the club with the hands. If they tried to turn that shoulder more like Hogan, they'd be toast...

Tim
[/quote]

Ok. So an upright shoulder turn exit pretty much squares the face despite doing it with the arms. Yup, agree on that (though that's not what SnT teach, they actually don't want active hands).

So, if an upright shoulder turn exit pretty much helps square the face longer despite some things going on that closes the face, why would that be detrimental to Hogan? Can you explain please?
[/quote]

Not what I said. Disagree totally. Nice job twisting my words. I understand SnT has changed...should have said "used to teach." Getting pretty tired of this...

Tim
[/quote]

C'mon. Didn't twist your words at all. I picked up on what you said.

Ok then, enlighten us. Why would the upright shoulder turn exit of Bubba avoid them getting toast given that they square the club with their hands?

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='TEConnor' timestamp='1343831143' post='5389516']
[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1343762232' post='5385194']
I just thought of something I think is interesting.

While I don't think you need a weak grip to have Hogan dyanamics in your swing (meaning leverage and a Hogan look through impact), I do think a weak grip can increase the Hogan-ness of your swing for the following reason.

I think it helps to roll (pronate/forearm rotation - I don't know the difference it's all just a feel to me so I apologize if this is vague) the club on the backswing, so the shaft is shallow while the arms are still connected (IMO, more connected arms and a deep pivot want to steepen the shaft, so the roll offsets this).

This is important because the proper pivot will then naturally shallow the shaft further in the transition and during the downswing. And that's important because you need to be on the elbow plane to have the Hogan style release, not above it.

So back to the weak grip, the weaker the grip, the more forearm/roll you can have while maintaining arm connection. So that means you can shallow it further than if your grip was stronger (assuming you maintain upper arm connection).

Now granted, you can still shallow the club plenty in the backswing via forearm rotation even with a strong grip. But maybe a weaker grip will allow you (as in me) to shallow the club even more OR to shallow the club the same amount while maintaining better arm connection?

Interesting.
[/quote]

Depends on which hand is weak. I still maintain, as Geoff J teaches, that the critical element here is HOW the club folds into the fingers in the left hand and that indeed a neutral to weak Right hand, which is very connected and "covering" the left thumb and pad, is equally critical (as explained by Hogan well in 5L). In my opinion, a slightly weak / strong left hand has no appreciable effect on how well one can rotate the left forearm (ie, shallow and slot) the club in the backswing and transition. What a weak left hand can do, unless the user has a very aggressive pivot and ability to get to the left side fully without any stall whatsoever, is induce a dumping of leverage and manipulation of the face with the hands in order to square the pivot. The genius of slicefixer is that he realized that Hogan's pivot was perhaps the most aggressive in history especially through impact. The VAST majority of folks learning to pivot properly (ie, not to stall and square with the hands) will be no where near as aggressive. If you have a slightly stronger left hand grip, provided the club is held properly in the fingers with a short thumb and with a neutral to weak right hand that fully connects and covers, then you are FAR less likely to need to dump and manipulate with the hands into impact even if you might have a less than Hoganesque pivot (sure it may be aggressive, but are you Hogan aggressive? is anyone clearing their shoulders and hips like him without any letup?). The right HAND is the key. Gotta get that sucker on there proper or the rotation of the left forearm, the holding of the levers, the setting of the club, and the super slotting are not accessible to the common man. Otherwise, you probably go down a path where you think it requires double jointing...

Cheers,
Tim
[/quote]

yeah I don't know if I really buy what I've posted.

I've been trying to use the grip that Geoff describes in ET. I think my grip is in good shape but I'm a little unsure about the right hand. I get the lifeline of my right hand on the side of my left thumb, which lets me fold the base of my right thumb over the top of my left thumb. Is that how it should be done? It feels very connected to me but what do I know.

[ALIF]

Hogangolf101 stated:

"Actually, Hogan having a very shallow shaft/hands/club plane, turning your shoulders on a flat rather than upright plane is a death move. By death move I mean you will ALWAYS steepen the shaft, lose the lag/wristc0ck and hit the ground (clubhead under plane) if you don't swing it low and left HARD. Farked me up for soooo loooooong."


My 2 cents:

This seems to be my main swing fault too. When I start to early extend it just makes it really bad. I feel that if I can turn slightly more vertical w/ my shoulders ala Matteo Manessero or Sergio, I'll stay down, turn left hard, and NOT stand up and out of the shot. Of course if my timing is on, I can get away with the early extension. When its off, I'm 2-3 fairways to the right, ala Phil M. Lol. I don't like really timing dependent swings.

[rok78]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1343833037' post='5389714']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343832855' post='5389690']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1343831999' post='5389598']
Snt are setting up with axis tilt now and using pitch elbow, Tim , it's all changed rofl
[/quote]

They still advocate the "Stack" (based on latest DVDs) and have been using pitch elbow ever since (based on the book and new DVDs, they want the R elbow to be always in front and never get far from the ribcage, keep the R armpit connection)...what do you mean? Please clarify...
[/quote]

When they first hooked up with the Medicus guys, they put out a TGM components list of the model S&T pattern. Punch elbow, hitters pattern.

Now they want 5 deg. axis tilt with a driver, per the "golf evolution" youtube video.
[/quote]

Not to go too OT, but Golf Evolution is not S&T, or at least not only S&T. They've been saying different things than the S&T "model" for a while. Also the TGM components listed was not put out by any S&T instructor, it was by a 3rd party. One of the first things I did when interested with S&T was discuss TGM "swinging" vs "hitting" and pitch vs punch with a S&T instructor and it was made very clear to me early (this was before the book & 1st dvd), that either was acceptable and variations were allowed.

People here are more adamant about "musts" with a "Hogan style" swing than any S&T instructor I've intereacted with would be with a "S&T style" swing.

[JBOMB808]

Ok, I have here straight from the horse's mouth. Finally got around to digging up this book. At the end of 5L. This is key fellas...

[b]"THE BASIS FOR THIS PROGRESS, LET ME REPEAT, WAS MY GENUINE CONVICTION THAT ALL THAT IS REALLY REQUIRED TO PLAY GOOD GOLF IS TO EXECUTE PROPERLY A RELATIVELY SMALL NUMBER OF TRUE FUNDAMENTAL MOVEMENTS.[/b]

...

[size=5][b]1)[/b][/size] He must [b]initiate the downswing[/b] by [size=5][b]turning[/b][/size] the [b]hips[/b] to the left. (the FIRST thing to focus on and he said turn not slide or backshift(reverse pivot)
2) He must [b]hit through to the finish[/b] of the swing in [b]one cohesive movement[/b], hitting with his hips, shoulders, arms and hands, in that order. (one movement meaning not one body part has stopped moving to allow any other to catch up, i.e. stall -> flip)
3) He must [b]start to supinate[/b] the[b] left wrist[/b] just before impact. (for a waggle experiment - go cup to bow and notice the leverage you attain in your lead arm by doing so)

This is, essentially, all he need concentrate on, PROVIDED HE IS IN THE [u][b]CORRECT POSITION AT THE TOP OF THE HIS BACKSWING[/b][/u]."

I bolded the parts I think are key and also added some notes().

Seems to work for me. Plane, weight shift, angle of attack - any and all seem to take care of themselves. Hogan was a genius.

[ALIF]

What just happened to the post w/ the great Shawn Clement video in it?? Wierd!

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343854395' post='5391982']
What just happened to the post w/ the great Shawn Clement video in it?? Wierd!
[/quote]

Who posted it?

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='rok78' timestamp='1343840455' post='5390402']

Not to go too OT, but Golf Evolution is not S&T, or at least not only S&T. They've been saying different things than the S&T "model" for a while. Also the TGM components listed was not put out by any S&T instructor, it was by a 3rd party. One of the first things I did when interested with S&T was discuss TGM "swinging" vs "hitting" and pitch vs punch with a S&T instructor and it was made very clear to me early (this was before the book & 1st dvd), that either was acceptable and variations were allowed.

People here are more adamant about "musts" with a "Hogan style" swing than any S&T instructor I've intereacted with would be with a "S&T style" swing.
[/quote]

SnT is clearly teaching a pitch elbow. They want the L shoulder to work down on BS, L hand/arm inwards, while you keep the R armpit pressure all throughout to the top. In fact they emphasize that doing it this way will keep the R elbow around 3 inches from your rib age in front not side of torso. That's pitch elbow. If you work the L shoulder down and L arm in, that will elevate the clubhead without you having to lift your R upper arm bec the L shoulder down provides the UP move of the L arm and club.

That's genius to me. Very consistent as well with Hogan's "keep the upper arm as close as possible to the side of the chest" teaching in 5L, which had me farked up for so long.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343838846' post='5390240']
Hogangolf101 stated:

"Actually, Hogan having a very shallow shaft/hands/club plane, turning your shoulders on a flat rather than upright plane is a death move. By death move I mean you will ALWAYS steepen the shaft, lose the lag/wristc0ck and hit the ground (clubhead under plane) if you don't swing it low and left HARD. Farked me up for soooo loooooong."


My 2 cents:

This seems to be my main swing fault too. When I start to early extend it just makes it really bad. I feel that if I can turn slightly more vertical w/ my shoulders ala Matteo Manessero or Sergio, I'll stay down, turn left hard, and NOT stand up and out of the shot. Of course if my timing is on, I can get away with the early extension. When its off, I'm 2-3 fairways to the right, ala Phil M. Lol. I don't like really timing dependent swings.
[/quote]

When you early extend, early extend with the L side, simultaneously think upright shoulder turn, which means the R shoulder going down. If you keep your head/upper center totally still and you hit it fat, or shank or like whiffing the ball (clubhead farther from the ball from your perspective), adjust your L hand grip.

[ALIF]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343867027' post='5392976']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343838846' post='5390240']
Hogangolf101 stated:

"Actually, Hogan having a very shallow shaft/hands/club plane, turning your shoulders on a flat rather than upright plane is a death move. By death move I mean you will ALWAYS steepen the shaft, lose the lag/wristc0ck and hit the ground (clubhead under plane) if you don't swing it low and left HARD. Farked me up for soooo loooooong."


My 2 cents:

This seems to be my main swing fault too. When I start to early extend it just makes it really bad. I feel that if I can turn slightly more vertical w/ my shoulders ala Matteo Manessero or Sergio, I'll stay down, turn left hard, and NOT stand up and out of the shot. Of course if my timing is on, I can get away with the early extension. When its off, I'm 2-3 fairways to the right, ala Phil M. Lol. I don't like really timing dependent swings.
[/quote]

When you early extend, early extend with the L side, simultaneously think upright shoulder turn, which means the R shoulder going down. If you keep your head/upper center totally still and you hit it fat, or shank or like whiffing the ball (clubhead farther from the ball from your perspective), adjust your L hand grip.
[/quote]

Will do. Thanks hogangolf101:)

[ALIF]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1343865408' post='5392848']
[quote name='chiva' timestamp='1343854395' post='5391982']
What just happened to the post w/ the great Shawn Clement video in it?? Wierd!
[/quote]

Who posted it?
[/quote]

Not sure. Dont remember. It was up and down quick.