Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits and Old-school era traits

[tofur99]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347308476' post='5618307']
Thanks Tylerdurden.

What I tell to my students is that they should stand on their whole foot at finish, not on the heel. That makes their left hip go first left but after that toward the original ball position, or lets say their tailbone moves toward the target line.

The reason for that is that I feel when hands are firing left, the lower body work has to be totally to opposite direction. Force and counterforce, always add both and try to find the dynamic balance that way. I hope this gives you some idea.
[/quote]

I had a big shot biomechanics guy try and get me to keep my left foot flat through impact. Started coming over the top, dumping leverage, stalling pivot, ugh. To each their own though, might just be me.

Also I was born with an ankle disorder where I have limited cartilage in my joint, so basically it's bone on bone and I've been getting heavily on the outside of my left heel for years with no pain. I vaguely remember there being some discomfort at first but my ankle adapted and it's a non-issue now, even with a previously torn ligament on the outside of it as well. Having the proper shoes is vital though. Why do you think it's bad to do long term?

also I feel like the right knee running at the ball acts as a counterweight to posting on the left heel and also brings the tailbone closer to the target line. That's just my experience, when I try and roll off my right instep into my left foot and keep my right hip and leg back and in, it messes with my whole swing

[drewspin]

I agree with tofur, and you cannot wear running style thick soled golf shoes with that kind of motion.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347361990' post='5622007']
Javelin and boxing blows and baseball throws and skipping rocks are ONE hand, ONE arm release motions of course... That leaves the non throwing, non-punching hand and non throwing arm which may be 3-5% of body weight to act as a counterbalance in the rotation.

Your eye dominance greatly affects your perception of your hand placement on the club, and perception of ball position and shaft lean, which in turn affects your dynamics in the swing and what the body must do to get the club back to the ball with consistency. TeeAce perceives his grip, both left hand and right hand as farther CCW rotated (weaker left hand and more on top right hand) than a left eye dominant player will perceive them. It is true for his perception, true for him, but not objectively true. He also perceives his ball position further forward toward the left fooot than a left-eye dominating player would see it. Again, true for him, but not objectively true.

If you study Hogan pictures and film, especially the ones in the late 1940s through 1950s (late 1947-55), generally, you'll see he went away from that finish position where he pressured the left foot FLAT and then cantelievered with the upper body leaning away from the target through the finish, which is quite hard on the back. Not to be critical, but just as an example, look at Tapio's canteliever lean in the finish from the caddy view in his video.

If you looked at hogan from the caddy view when he has a high finish, his upper center does not lean back in the follow through, it is more vertical, because Hogan's rotation was more balanced withi his body COG closer to his left heel
[/quote]

You might be right in many things but also wrong about ball position. I use very open stance and flared left foot. So when the camera angle is not perfect, it looks the ball is more back than it is relative to the target alignment relative to the left heel. 3D measurement is once again great tool to see it without distortions. This is not perfect either and those lines are for other purposes, but gives you much better idea of the ball position than my swing video at this thread.

And if someone thinks I prefer reverse C type hanging back finish, it's not true. I hate that part of my swing but have to accept it as a lack of power in my legs. The ting I'm only talking about is the left hip / left ankle relation at finish and I want to avoid that hip getting outside of the box. Something I have noticed is that it's one of the hardest thing for many players to achieve, specially if they have learned to shift their weight to the left earlier.

One more thing is to separate work and movement. However hard I work with left leg to the opposite direction than hands are swinging, I cant resist that force enough and will end to the left leg. In my case I can create quite much forces to the club, CHS about 96-98 with 6 iron, but my lower body is not the same any more as it was when I was younger. That's why my left knee bends so much even I try the opposite and if I try to really hit it, it really brakes down and I slide. So one more old mans physical flaw that should be fixed.

I will be in Q-school and in one EPD tournament with one of the players almost two weeks now, but try to make a video about that lower body action how I see it when I'm back home.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347361990' post='5622007']
Javelin and boxing blows and baseball throws and skipping rocks are ONE hand, ONE arm release motions of course... That leaves the non throwing, non-punching hand and non throwing arm which may be 3-5% of body weight to act as a counterbalance in the rotation.

Your eye dominance greatly affects your perception of your hand placement on the club, and perception of ball position and shaft lean, which in turn affects your dynamics in the swing and what the body must do to get the club back to the ball with consistency. TeeAce perceives his grip, both left hand and right hand as farther CCW rotated (weaker left hand and more on top right hand) than a left eye dominant player will perceive them. It is true for his perception, true for him, but not objectively true. He also perceives his ball position further forward toward the left fooot than a left-eye dominating player would see it. Again, true for him, but not objectively true.

If you study Hogan pictures and film, especially the ones in the late 1940s through 1950s (late 1947-55), generally, you'll see he went away from that finish position where he pressured the left foot FLAT and then cantelievered with the upper body leaning away from the target through the finish, which is quite hard on the back. Not to be critical, but just as an example, look at Tapio's canteliever lean in the finish from the caddy view in his video.

If you looked at Hogan from the caddy view post-war, when he has a high finish, his upper center does not lean back in the follow through, it is more vertical, because Hogan's rotation was more balanced with his body COG closer to his left heel.

Hogan's dynamic action can be tough on the body also. He used the hard sructure very effectively for leverage.
[/quote]

Nice.

[drewspin]

T-

This is what I was referencing when I said UD+ shoulder turn release. I thought casting would be too pejorative, and I know its later on than most who cast from the top.... But I saw it as UD, then turn shoulders in your demonstration.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psn8ybLLwhs

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347364851' post='5622137']
T-

This is what I was referencing when I said UD+ shoulder turn release. I thought casting would be too pejorative, and I know its later on than most who cast from the top.... But I saw it as UD, then turn shoulders in your demonstration.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Psn8ybLLwhs[/media]
[/quote]

Those are isolated moments demonstrated there, nothing to do with the time. But I only said it twice at that video

Just to understand what movements have to been put together, not about in which order.

[drewspin]

Fair enough Tee. There are more than enough pissing matches and debates, and I'm not looking to be critical of your motion or to start becoming distracted by those things. Believe me, I understand the limitations of age.

After playing this game for 30 years and having dug into it pretty deep with the help of some great teachers like Brad and Fats, I feel I've got a good enough mental image of the swing in 3D to know what I'm looking at for my own purposes, which is to be able to self-correct myself, and to be able to teach my kids proper fundamentals to pass on the legacy of this great game.. all I really care about in golf right now.

Leaving all that aside, I do appreciate seeing your swing video, because there are a lot of obvious clues in it which clarify the prior merry-go-round of posts (here and and elsewhere) regarding your view of supination, etc.

One more factual example from me, and that will be the end of it... if you pause the video at the top of the first swing from the DTL view, then look at the direction your shaft is pointing, then examine the direction the divot is heading, those paths cross. I don't suppose you are hitting a huge pull or a hook, so you are hitting a fade from the outside in. I'm not going to use your feet for reference, since you said you were positioned open. At least from my perspective as a LED person you have a neutral to slightly strong left hand grip and a right hand that is not riding on top (more neutral to under on the right). With your path and grip, IF you were to supinate, you'd shut down that clubface and hit it OFF THE PLANET LEFT.

Regarless of ball position, that analysis becomes MUCH different however, for someone like Hogan with a weak to VERY weak left hand grip, a right hand grip over the top, and who does not have the same criss cross of the club at the top of the swing (who is a reformed hooker who learned to hit a fade from an inside-square-inside approach).

Good luck at getting your students through Q-school.

[TeeAce]

Drew, one more thing about supination and I finish that. No one can supinate left forearm and keep the right hand under the shaft and right elbow in at the same time.

And btw, my path is from inside and I hit draw or straight, fade is still hard to me sometimes. Just for example how easy it is to make mistakes by watching a video. Specially that level video.

Also the grip... hmm... my left thumb is at the top of the shaft and parallel to it. How weak you think it should be?

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347371970' post='5622617']
Drew, one more thing about supination and I finish that. No one can supinate left forearm and keep the right hand under the shaft and right elbow in at the same time.

And btw, my path is from inside and I hit draw or straight, fade is still hard to me sometimes. Just for example how easy it is to make mistakes by watching a video. Specially that level video.

Also the grip... hmm... my left thumb is at the top of the shaft and parallel to it. How weak you think it should be?
[/quote]

I'm not going back into the debate on supination other than to say that one needs to understand WHERE YOU ARE STARTING the motion, the grip and arm positions, how much axial rotation you have in the arms going back, AND how much pivot you have. There are reasons Hogan described it exactly as he did, even if they are not exactly correct.

Take a look at what I described with your divot and club shaft at the top, Tee. It's one swing... not trying to generalize your motion, but on that first swing, if your club face was square to path at impact, you'd have pulled it over the netting left.

Before we go around and around again, please step back and understand how eye-dominance affects all these perceptions. Quite remarkable.

[drewspin]

BEFORE left hand grip: http://images.google...ceb1a36922.html

 

AFTER left hand grip: http://images.google...b2f1ae5ee9.html

 

Anyone can take a picture with the same shaft and arm angle, and objectively compare their grip to the before and after Hogan images above.

 

Because of eye-dominance issues looking down, it may APPEAR very different to you than what the pictures look like when you see it looking face on.

 

Check the clubface:

 

 

and the upright torso in the balanced finish:

 

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347372993' post='5622695']
.

Take a look at what I described with your divot and club shaft at the top, Tee. It's one swing... not trying to generalize your motion, but on that first swing, if your club face was square to path at impact, you'd have pulled it over the netting left.

[/quote]

This you really got wrong. It's not coming out to in in reality. Actually it can't. Or if it comes, Trackman, Flightscope and 4D swing are all wrong. I dont think so.

There is something now that you think wrong way in 3D geometry. Maybe some distortion is leading you to the wrong road. I got no idea what it can be, but it's obvious. It all goes through grip etc.... there is something you have to be missing.

I also cant see the real connection between shaft across at transition and path at impact. Have seen so many variations there. And that geometry isn't simple also and shouldn't be simplified.

[TeeAce]

BEFORE left hand grip: http://images.google...ceb1a36922.html

 

AFTER left hand grip: http://images.google...b2f1ae5ee9.html

 

Anyone can take a picture with the same shaft and arm angle, and objectively compare their grip to the before and after Hogan images above.

 

Because of eye-dominance issues looking down, it may APPEAR very different to you than what the pictures look like when you see it looking face on.

 

Check the clubface:

 

 

and the upright torso in the balanced finish:

 

 

My left hand grip is weaker than Hogans "after"

[TeeAce]

 

 

Check the clubface:

 

 

 

 

 

Yep, its closing by moving from DF to PF. From cupped to bowed but back of the left hand still facing the camera.

[drewspin]

I'm going to leave it to you and others to comment on whether your grip is weaker than Hogan's after.

Take the bones in his wrist as a proxy for forearms, and you'll see that while you are correct that he is moving to PF as the left thumb has not changed directions MUCH, it has changed SOME along the arc, and we know there is STILL axial rotation of the left forearm (because we can see the wrist - not perfect like if he were in short sleeve shirt) but the same result of the forearm rotating axially so that the radius bone in the left forearm which connects to the wrist on top by the left thumb, that radius bone is rising up over the ulna (as it rotates CCW if you were looking straight down the forearm)... it happens to a degree of what would happen in "supination".

That's why even though anatomically it isn't really much supinating "the hand" (because his left thumb faces generally in the same direction) he is creating the same effect with the forearm bones.

My take anyway.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347374382' post='5622789']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347372993' post='5622695']
.

Take a look at what I described with your divot and club shaft at the top, Tee. It's one swing... not trying to generalize your motion, but on that first swing, if your club face was square to path at impact, you'd have pulled it over the netting left.

[/quote]

This you really got wrong. It's not coming out to in in reality. Actually it can't. Or if it comes, Trackman, Flightscope and 4D swing are all wrong. I dont think so.

There is something now that you think wrong way in 3D geometry. Maybe some distortion is leading you to the wrong road. I got no idea what it can be, but it's obvious. It all goes through grip etc.... there is something you have to be missing.

I also cant see the real connection between shaft across at transition and path at impact. Have seen so many variations there. And that geometry isn't simple also and shouldn't be simplified.
[/quote]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something.

Looking at the video and look at the toe edge of the divot you made in the first swing DTL - and where that divot is pointing... and where your club is pointing at the top of that first swing backswing, and where the ball goes.

Maybe I should be quoting Roberto DeVincenzo: "What a stupid I am."

Or maybe you'd like to show me where my eyes and brain are all wrong in failing to interpret the video correctly.

Again, it's one swing. Not trying to generalize.

[TeeAce]

I'm going to leave it to you and others to comment on whether your grip is weaker than Hogan's after.

 

Take the bones in his wrist as a proxy for forearms, and you'll see that while you are correct that he is moving to PF as the left thumb has not changed directions MUCH, it has changed SOME along the arc, and we know there is STILL axial rotation of the left forearm (because we can see the wrist - not perfect like if he were in short sleeve shirt) but the same result of the forearm rotating axially so that the radius bone in the left forearm which connects to the wrist on top by the left thumb, that radius bone is rising up over the ulna (as it rotates CCW if you were looking straight down the forearm)... it happens to a degree of what would happen in "supination".

 

That's why even though anatomically it isn't really much supinating "the hand" (because his left thumb faces generally in the same direction) he is creating the same effect with the forearm bones.

 

My take anyway.

 

Of course it rotates to that direction, but it rotates because of the left shoulder is moving that way, not because the forearm rotates independently.

 

Look at the lower part of his sleeve there. It rotates maybe 10 degrees, at least not much more. At the same time the whole arm is rotating at least that much with the left shoulder and that shoulder move is even much more than that. And the radial is rising because of UD and when you continue that whole system rotation to the impact (not forearm only) the wrist bone (radial side) is rise and the wrist is bowed toward the target.

 

The main point is to turn the whole arm around the vertical axis by left shoulder, not rotate the forearm around it's own axis about like this (except Hogans left shoulder move was even bigger)

 

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347375776' post='5622909']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347374382' post='5622789']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347372993' post='5622695']
.

Take a look at what I described with your divot and club shaft at the top, Tee. It's one swing... not trying to generalize your motion, but on that first swing, if your club face was square to path at impact, you'd have pulled it over the netting left.

[/quote]

This you really got wrong. It's not coming out to in in reality. Actually it can't. Or if it comes, Trackman, Flightscope and 4D swing are all wrong. I dont think so.

There is something now that you think wrong way in 3D geometry. Maybe some distortion is leading you to the wrong road. I got no idea what it can be, but it's obvious. It all goes through grip etc.... there is something you have to be missing.

I also cant see the real connection between shaft across at transition and path at impact. Have seen so many variations there. And that geometry isn't simple also and shouldn't be simplified.
[/quote]

Okay, maybe I'm missing something.

Looking at the video and look at the toe edge of the divot you made in the first swing DTL - and where that divot is pointing... and where your club is pointing at the top of that first swing backswing, and where the ball goes.

Maybe I should be quoting Roberto DeVincenzo: "What a stupid I am."

Or maybe you'd like to show me where my eyes and brain are all wrong in failing to interpret the video correctly.

Again, it's one swing. Not trying to generalize.
[/quote]

I remember old great man John Jacobs story he told us almost 20 years ago how he had to fight to get people to understand divot. He said at that time he was watching lot of tournaments and always went to par 3 teeboxes to see the divots. Depending of tournament, there was always 2 or 3 divots pointing right and all others to the left. Yep... there was only 2 or 3 lefties at that time on tour

Divot tells nothing about the path at impact, it tells about the path when ball has gone already.

But I know at least one thing you are missing about the grip. In Hogans images there is zero DF and that's why it looks weaker than mine at setup. Remember that wrist is at about 45 degree angle, so DF changes the view.

[tylerdurden]

Here's Hogan's true intent through impact. It all makes sense now:

[url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/5f7d8391ae0f7d89.html"]http://images.google.com/hosted/life/5f7d8391ae0f7d89.html[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1347376995' post='5623015']
Here's Hogan's true intent through impact. It all makes sense now:

[url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/5f7d8391ae0f7d89.html"]http://images.google...91ae0f7d89.html[/url]
[/quote]

First I thought it was a joke, but I think it's not.

[tylerdurden]

lol I think it is. Here's another one: [url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/9772c1f4457859bf.html"]http://images.google.com/hosted/life/9772c1f4457859bf.html[/url]

[tylerdurden]

[url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/bd7611d101c50ba4.html"]http://images.google.com/hosted/life/bd7611d101c50ba4.html[/url]

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Getting ready to re-name this thread. Original name is "Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits."

Should have been called "Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits and old-school era traits."

[TeeAce]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1347377389' post='5623073']
lol I think it is. Here's another one: [url="http://images.google.com/hosted/life/9772c1f4457859bf.html"]http://images.google...f4457859bf.html[/url]
[/quote]

More I look them, more I think it's not a joke. Seems much like "swedish release" action. Of course it never looks like that by other forces, but intention to keep the club head all the time at the right side of the head. Overdoing it, for sure. But it has a meaning that fits totally to my thoughts

[JBOMB808]

'People' said Moe was whacked out, but now the positions he 'feels' correlates with Hogan's.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9V0H-_sOvJQ[/media]

[JBOMB808]

Posted on the current thread regarding the 'cupped wrist'. I like Mike Maves' ideas.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o8xO2nN0LT0&feature=plcp
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_slBWCzRCKs&feature=plcp

[TeeAce]

Thanks JBOMB, great video about Moe. Something similar...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRz5jHx5jsE&feature=plcp

[drewspin]

Come on, man. Of course, the divot shows club head path through - after impact, yes, but through the shot.

Just earlier in this thread you claimed "My club head is going straight still after impact" -

So after impact when you made that divot, and your club is going straight - With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video, where is that divot and straight club path pointed?

Not talking about face angle... talking about clubhead path (yes, i know it's three dimensions through time).

From the last 2 minutes of the video above where you are talking about Hogan's follow-through, you are so wrong about his action. Astonishing really, that you keep bringing that up. Just pause the Shell WWOG instructional lesson to watch him cross over late past impact, or check the pics when he's not hitting a hold-off shot.

[url="http://julesalexander.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/G0000Dx4VOyDVFCY/I0000QBImhToM3HU/3"]http://julesalexande...00QBImhToM3HU/3[/url]

[url="http://julesalexander.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/G0000Dx4VOyDVFCY/I0000A9hFszKqTpI/3"]http://julesalexande...00A9hFszKqTpI/3[/url]

[chrisgilly09]

Drew,

Thank you for your response, clearly it brought out a bit more discussion. And for the record, that flat left foot describes me perfectly. What can I do to change that?

[ray ray]

the problem for tapio is his idea of supination is not correct. i have seen his demo's and they all have an exaggerated and way to early idea of supination in them.

and actually he has done a pitch of the club motion towards the target line (called in scientific terms positive beta torque) when he demo's his idea of supination, that's definetly not how it's done or where in the swing it's done by good players. there is axial rotation ( called gamma torque)/supination and it helps in the squaring of the face and the good players do it much later and totally different than what tapio shows in his demo video.

there's scientific studies done on this and tapio is sooo wrong about many things. i read on another forum where he thinks you can lock out your forearm rotation by bowing your wrist, how is that even possible by any wrist action to affect a locking of your forearm, by what mechanism is this possible in anatomy? same question asked by another poster on a different forum but tapio never answers this and it's very important because it goes to the heart of his theory about supination and p.f.

please explain that tapio.


i could take tapio's idea's and exaggerate them in a video and make it look ridiculous and misrepresent like he does with supination.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347382670' post='5623645']
Come on, man. Of course, the divot shows club head path through - after impact, yes, but through the shot.

Just earlier in this thread you claimed "My club head is going straight still after impact" -

So after impact when you made that divot, and your club is going straight - With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video, where is that divot and straight club path pointed?

Not talking about face angle... talking about clubhead path (yes, i know it's three dimensions through time).

From the last 2 minutes of the video above where you are talking about Hogan's follow-through, you are so wrong about his action. Astonishing really, that you keep bringing that up. Just pause the Shell WWOG instructional lesson to watch him cross over late past impact, or check the pics when he's not hitting a hold-off shot.

[url="http://julesalexander.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/G0000Dx4VOyDVFCY/I0000QBImhToM3HU/3"]http://julesalexande...00QBImhToM3HU/3[/url]

[url="http://julesalexander.photoshelter.com/gallery-image/G0000Dx4VOyDVFCY/I0000A9hFszKqTpI/3"]http://julesalexande...00A9hFszKqTpI/3[/url]
[/quote]

Are you really confusing action and reaction? Forces that make something happen when inner circle decelerates?

So making same misunderstandings about golf swing that has been made all the time by watching positions without seeing forces and velocities...

And yes... I really want my club head go left right after impact, not sling it out as I did years ago.