Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits and Old-school era traits

[bhughesgolf]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1347775776' post='5646179']

Watch the width of the knees at address and during the downswing and then right during/after impact...... [size=5](they close!).[/size]
[/quote]

Boom JBOMB....THEY CLOSE...the gap closes...horizontal ground forces taking over from the vertical ground forces to accelerate the pivot and keep connection of the arms to the core...the club in tighter to the core....
armsy handsy players will have zero idea what this feels like

[bhughesgolf]

HG101 wrote
[i]steep/vertical is......"Relative to the ground/ball of course. "[/i]

Who in this pic below has shoulders more vertical/steep in relation to the ground/ball?

[attachment=1349171:djbh.JPG]

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='bhughesgolf' timestamp='1347781442' post='5646291']
HG101 wrote
[i]steep/vertical is......"Relative to the ground/ball of course. "[/i]

Who in this pic below has shoulders more vertical/steep in relation to the ground/ball?

[attachment=1349171:djbh.JPG]
[/quote]

@Brad

You've got to show a series of pics. Every human being swinging a golf club will always pass a point where his L and R shoulders are level to each other. It's what happened before and after that you've got see.

I seriously doubt that you are not aware of this. So I'm at a loss why you are arguing based in one pic. You are fooling innocent readers that wants to learn.

Show us the series of pics BEFORE and AFTER the above pics you posted.

[bhughesgolf]

I am showing a pic there right around impact to show how steep/vertical shoulders at impact in relation to the hips and in relation to the ground produces a disconnect of the arms........because the torso is stopping to allow the arms to move out and along the line.
DJ shows MUCH more steep vertical shoulders in relation to the ground
[attachment=1349173:djbhsteep.jpg]
[attachment=1349177:dustyben.JPG]
Hogan didn't do that....his hips and shoulders matched up in their sequence of turning not steepening the shoulders in relation to the ground or to the hips...here is a pic of Hogan & Kuchar....same thing
[attachment=1349175:benmatt.JPG]
here is another of Norman and Tiger...same thing
[attachment=1349179:GNTW.jpg]

Now in someone like Nick Price I can see the shoulders work through steeper...BUT...that is because he has very square hips and shoulders at impact but then continues to move things post impact and there is very little disparity between the shoulder hip relationship compared to the ground/ball.
[attachment=1349181:price.JPG]
The other guys I showed such as TW and DJ don't do this..... They keep opening their hips into impact and stall the shoulders into a vertical steep position and then throw their arms off the body connection moving the club away from their core. This is why they hit it off the planet at times especially with the longer clubs
[attachment=1349183:bendj.JPG]
I am not trying to be difficult here.....I keep throwing up pics showing that the shoulders turn less vertical through impact than you are trying to say....
The left shoulder is getting out of the way and connection is kept in the upper arms and they are not going up and up steep in the shoulder plane as the right shoulder goes down...... we only have to see the relationship of the hips and shoulders to see such a thing in relation to the ground/target line

I believe your definition of steep/vertical isn't correct if you can't see that

[svsvincenzo]

@Brad

I'm not saying Hogan turned it vertical like a Ferris Wheel. But he turned it MORE vertical considering his relatively shory height and his relatively long arms.

The last pic you posted of Hogan clearly shows it. Why don't we show a series of pics, like those I posted way back? It's the whole dynamic movement that will show the truth that will set us free...lol

Here's the reason why DJ and TW...their spine are much more bent over than Hogan, so their hands are further from their pelvis, so they will look more slingy. But they are relatively slingy compared to Hogan...know why? It's because their hands are further from their pelvis. It's physics. It's further from the turning axis or centers.

But that has got nothing to do with the more vertical-ness of their shoulder turns. You can turn your shoulders as vertical as possible without slinging. However, most who does if they don't have the grip right will cause the arms and hands to crossover or get slingy as you say because to turn the shoulders vertical they thought you'd have to really bent over causing your hands to get even further from the pelvis. Plus...because the vertical shoulder turn causes their arms and hands to travel more DTL, which physics will encourage the hands to "roll over", hence the "slinging". Lastly, their clubhead path now becomes more vertical also, which causes THEM (not Hogan) to hit or dig the ground hard. Their low point is now below ground level. That's why they have to get those hands and club going LOW and LEFT because that will offset that slinging effect and vertical path of the clubhead that will cause the face to close earlier and hit the ground hard, respectively. How would we solve this otherwise? How did Mr. Hogan solved this? And note this, despite all these slingy and face closure effects, he wants the L wrist/forearm to supinate and wants the 3 R hands as far as power is concerned. Amazing.

IMHO, of course.

[ajc57]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1346952679' post='5597087'] Ok...here ya go TeeAce. This would be a good place to put up your swing and hg101 to pick out and discuss the Hogan traits. I have a wager going that hg101 [b]does [/b]have the golf balls to post his swing and have an educated discussion about it. Man......I hope I don't lose the bet!! And for anybody else out there...post your swing so we can pick the Hogan out of it. Some of my favs are tofur99, tylerdurden, ajc57. And about my swing, the only Hogan trait I see is my bowed left wrist at and after impact....and no I am not trying to bow it, and I don't know how it bows. [/quote]

Ant, you have a lot more Hogan in ya then your bowed wrist, and I'm flattered that you like my swing...btw, I can tell you how your wrist bows if you want...lol but I know you like doing stuff yourself so only if you want...the issue with a lot of Hogan mechanics is that they become increasingly difficult at high speeds. I have no issues bowing with 3/4 swings but when I use my driver it def becomes more difficult...been getting closer to full bowed recently after some serious labs.

[tylerdurden]

Brad and HG101-

Have either of you read this article? [url="http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html"]http://www.aroundhawaii.com/lifestyle/health_and_fitness/2011-03-whats-a-shoulder-turn-part-3.html[/url]

It's a 3 part series, I think the entire thing is good.

About half way down Kelvin talks about how the shoulders need to be turning steeper than the hips as it's a result of lateral bend. I agree with him on this.

He also talks about how the left scapula should remain protracted into impact, with left shoulder internal rotation as long as possible to stabilize the clubface. I also agree with him on this and had good results with it this weekend.

[drewspin]

Interesting thoughts from Kelvin -

"
This brings up an important point. [b]Some people ask why the left forearm supination and left wrist flexion should be exaggerated in doing the Impact Snap Device exercise[/b]. This would be part of the reason.

Also, lateral bending, holding lag and continued rotation of the body will leave the clubface more open as well. [b]Thus, the amount of supination needed to square the clubface is far greater than for a poor swing.[/b]

[b]Or you can choose to use left shoulder external rotation as part of your release style, but this automatically rotates the entire left arm and leaves it in a more unstable, weaker position [/b](shall we say it encourages a flip/rolling release?). This means the left forearm can supinate faster too and that means hooks."

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347913819' post='5652873']
Interesting thoughts from Kelvin -

"
This brings up an important point. [b]Some people ask why the left forearm supination and left wrist flexion should be exaggerated in doing the Impact Snap Device exercise[/b]. This would be part of the reason.

Also, lateral bending, holding lag and continued rotation of the body will leave the clubface more open as well. [b]Thus, the amount of supination needed to square the clubface is far greater than for a poor swing.[/b]

[b]Or you can choose to use left shoulder external rotation as part of your release style, but this automatically rotates the entire left arm and leaves it in a more unstable, weaker position [/b](shall we say it encourages a flip/rolling release?). This means the left forearm can supinate faster too and that means hooks."
[/quote]

Yeah, Kelvin is the man. What do you mean by interesting? What are your thoughts on what you quoted above?

[drewspin]

Kelvin's position seems polar opposite to Tapio's. That's one reason I found it so interesting.

Tapio uses Kelvin's Impact Snap device for training, but he teaches NOT to supinate the left forearm and he thinks that's a no-no and Hogan was simply wrong about what Wind and he wrote in 5L.

Tapio said: "The main point is to turn the whole arm around the vertical axis by left shoulder, not rotate the forearm around it's own axis about like this (except Hogans left shoulder move was even bigger)" So, Tapio (it appears to me) is teaching an entire left arm rotation and a left shoulder external roataion release style.

Here, Kelvin appears to be saying to maintain the internal rotation of the left shoulder (and by default maintain the inward orientation of upper left arm to the elbow) such that the upper portion of the left arm resists external rotation until much past impact.... and that the left forearm supination and wrist flexion should be EXAGGERATED doing the impact snap device training.

[EDIT - in a later article though Kelvin says: "Note: External rotation of the shoulder will always increase supination of the left forearm through impact whereas by trying to retain internal rotation, the great ballstrikers are seeking to reduce supination." ] - In my view, the degree of supination required will have a LOT to do with your grip on the club...

Anyway, I think Hogan gave away his game plan in the waggle description I gave above.

This is a statement that anyone can agree with: " the great ballstrikers find a way to limit clubface rotation or reduce the rate of clubface rotation through impact." 100% true.

[tylerdurden]

OK thanks. I think I agree with Kelvin on this because I've tried both intents and had much better results with Kelvin's.

A couple follow up questions for you (if you don't mind) about the Hogan waggle and 5L. Hogan says the left elbow points at the hip and talks about how it should work so it faces the hips. Basically he is saying the left elbow should be externally rotated when he talks about this, no?

I guess my question is, did Hogan kind of mess up by saying the left elbow points at the hip? It is obviously inconsistent with what Kelvin is saying I believe.

I personally and currently don't think it was his intent to externally rotate the left shoulder. He remains very internally rotated late into the downswing and into delivery. Like Kelvin says, he also has left scapula protraction. I guess what I'm saying is I think his intent was to basically do what Kelvin says happen, and the external rotation of left shoulder and the "low left" appearence happens as a result of the pivot, but it was never the intent.

As a side note, if you are shallow in delivery and have all this stuff mentioned above happening, to supination happens automatically. I remember HF provided a research article about this, and Brian M also talked about this.

[tylerdurden]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmyYOivNYJM&feature=player_embedded"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmyYOivNYJM&feature=player_embedded[/url]

Drew, the video you posted (reposted above) looks to me like he actually kept his left shoulder internally rotated during the waggle, so I guess it supports what I'm trying to say.

[tylerdurden]

Wow - it's crystal clear in this video that his left shoulder is internally rotated late into delivery/impact. I was just never looking at this from this angle. I was blinded by the DTL videos.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Nw__K1myQ&feature=player_embedded#!"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Nw__K1myQ&feature=player_embedded#![/url]

[drewspin]

Tyler - It seems inconsistent at first until you think about how he went from address through impact with pronation of the left hand/forearm.

If you were to roll (pronate) as you go into the BS that will flatten your plane, and also allow you to internally rotate the left shoulder and upper arm ON THE backswing.



[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9gCZCNGs3Gk[/url]

[size=3][size=4]Hogan, "I [b]rolled [/b]the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was [b]rotating [/b]the club like a baseball bat, and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could." [/size]

ROLL ( to internally rotate the lead shoulder) then ROTATE (the whole system without externally rotating the lead shoulder).[/size]

[tylerdurden]

I follow this but still don't follow why he ever wanted to externally rotate the left shoulder. Maybe he didn't - I need to checkout 5L again I could have wrong ideas in my head.

[drewspin]

Pepe Cano put his camera in the right place: right off the line established by Hogan's left foot. Step through it.

[b][b][url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nWLLPKiSMRk[/url][/b][/b]

[tylerdurden]

lol still scratching my head.

[hoganfan924]

The question is:

Do you supinate the forearm or does the club supinate the forearm for you? The answer IMO, defines one key difference between between those who struggle and good ballstrikers

[hoganfan924]

Hogan's clubface was wide open very late into the downswing yet he also said that trying to time the clubface was "folly." He also said the harder he swung, the straighter it went. These statements are very difficult for most to understand but they make perfect sense to me

[svsvincenzo]

IMHO, with Hogan's grip and given his unique pivot, his supination intent doesn't affect the clubFACE much, it just affects the clubHEAD. Even if it affects the clubhead (moves the clubhead from away from the ball to the ball to past the ball), the face won't close as much. The supination is not for direction, its for distance. So Hogan, even with supination intent, wasn't trying to to time the face, he was just trying to move the clubHEAD as fast as possible. Note that Hogan also said that the timing of the face has already been taken cared of at setup, grip and waggle.

I'm sure Drew knows why exactly. But I believe he's not gonna tell anybody that...

[ALIF]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347927285' post='5654263']
The question is:

Do you supinate the forearm or does the club supinate the forearm for you? The answer IMO, defines one key difference between between those who struggle and good ballstrikers
[/quote]

I think the club supinates the forearm for me. The physics dictate this.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347916552' post='5653077']

Tapio said: "The main point is to turn the whole arm around the vertical axis by left shoulder, not rotate the forearm around it's own axis about like this (except Hogans left shoulder move was even bigger)" So, Tapio (it appears to me) is teaching an entire left arm rotation and a left shoulder external roataion release style.


[/quote]

Total misunderstanding. No ext. rotation of the left shoulder at all in my teaching.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347918495' post='5653303']

[size=3][size=4]Hogan, "I [b]rolled [/b]the face of the club open away from the ball. That cupped my left wrist. Coming down, the face was moving so fast I couldn't turn it over and hook. I was [b][size=5]rotating the club like a baseball bat[/size][/b], and the faster I could rotate it, the more distance I got. Training myself, I would roll the face open as fast and as far as I could." [/size]

ROLL ( to internally rotate the lead shoulder) then ROTATE (the whole system without externally rotating the lead shoulder).[/size]
[/quote]

That's exactly what he did IMO. What is confusing us is the up and down element at the same time. He rotated the whole club around him, not around the shaft.

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347945315' post='5655875']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347916552' post='5653077']

Tapio said: "The main point is to turn the whole arm around the vertical axis by left shoulder, not rotate the forearm around it's own axis about like this (except Hogans left shoulder move was even bigger)" So, Tapio (it appears to me) is teaching an entire left arm rotation and a left shoulder external roataion release style.


[/quote]

Total misunderstanding. No ext. rotation of the left shoulder at all in my teaching.
[/quote]

Okay, but take a look where your left elbow is pointing in your face on demonstration in the "shouldermove" video. That to my eyes is exactly external shoulder rotation.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347968074' post='5656301']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347945315' post='5655875']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347916552' post='5653077']
Tapio said: "The main point is to turn the whole arm around the vertical axis by left shoulder, not rotate the forearm around it's own axis about like this (except Hogans left shoulder move was even bigger)" So, Tapio (it appears to me) is teaching an entire left arm rotation and a left shoulder external roataion release style.


[/quote]

Total misunderstanding. No ext. rotation of the left shoulder at all in my teaching.
[/quote]

Okay, but take a look where your left elbow is pointing in your face on demonstration in the "shouldermove" video. That to my eyes is exactly external shoulder rotation.
[/quote]

That's wrong again.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347927840' post='5654337']
Hogan's clubface was wide open very late into the downswing yet he also said that trying to time the clubface was "folly." He also said the harder he swung, the straighter it went. These statements are very difficult for most to understand but they make perfect sense to me
[/quote]
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347927285' post='5654263']
The question is:

Do you supinate the forearm or does the club supinate the forearm for you? The answer IMO, defines one key difference between between those who struggle and good ballstrikers
[/quote]

HF - Care to elaborate? I'm trying to read between the line and here is what I'm getting: You think the club, if in the proper position, does the supination for you. I think this relates to the research article/website you posted about how when the club is shallow, the clubface naturally wants to rotate, while when it is steep, the club doesnt auto rotate for you. Am I correct in my interpretation?

Now the part I am struggling to read between the lines in - the swinging harder and the clubface being very open. Maybe does this just relate to how the club auto rotates when shallow, and you are connecting shallow to open? And maybe it auto rotates more efficiently when you swing hard?

I'd really appreciate if you respond to this, even if its cryptic lol. I can't wait to ask Geoff similar questions. I have a ton of questions and ideas in my head. I hope he can help me straiten them out cause I know some of them are completely junk. Hopefully he doesn't kick me out for dumb questions lol.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348017939' post='5660889']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347927840' post='5654337']
Hogan's clubface was wide open very late into the downswing yet he also said that trying to time the clubface was "folly." He also said the harder he swung, the straighter it went. These statements are very difficult for most to understand but they make perfect sense to me
[/quote]
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347927285' post='5654263']
The question is:

Do you supinate the forearm or does the club supinate the forearm for you? The answer IMO, defines one key difference between between those who struggle and good ballstrikers
[/quote]

HF - Care to elaborate? I'm trying to read between the line and here is what I'm getting: You think the club, if in the proper position, does the supination for you.[b] I think this relates to the research article/website you posted about how when the club is shallow, the clubface naturally wants to rotate, while when it is steep, the club doesnt auto rotate for you. Am I correct in my interpretation?[/b]

Now the part I am struggling to read between the lines in - the swinging harder and the clubface being very open. Maybe does this just relate to how the club auto rotates when shallow, and you are connecting shallow to open? And maybe it auto rotates more efficiently when you swing hard?

I'd really appreciate if you respond to this, even if its cryptic lol. I can't wait to ask Geoff similar questions. I have a ton of questions and ideas in my head. I hope he can help me straiten them out cause I know some of them are completely junk. Hopefully he doesn't kick me out for dumb questions lol.
[/quote]

This is part of it, a big part of it. You'll get the rest when you visit Geoff.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347929768' post='5654541']
IMHO, with Hogan's grip and given his unique pivot, his supination intent doesn't affect the clubFACE much, it just affects the clubHEAD. Even if it affects the clubhead (moves the clubhead from away from the ball to the ball to past the ball), the face won't close as much. The supination is not for direction, its for distance. So Hogan, even with supination intent, wasn't trying to to time the face, he was just trying to move the clubHEAD as fast as possible. Note that Hogan also said that the timing of the face has already been taken cared of at setup, grip and waggle.

I'm sure Drew knows why exactly. But I believe he's not gonna tell anybody that...
[/quote]

This makes sense. This is very interesting stuff. The cupping vs bowing is what effects the clubface alignment, right? But the supanation is just moving the club head along the arc, just like you said. Good stuff.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1348018248' post='5660913']
This is part of it, a big part of it. You'll get the rest when you visit Geoff.
[/quote]

OK sweet. The anticipation builds...

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='tylerdurden' timestamp='1348018283' post='5660921']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347929768' post='5654541']
IMHO, with Hogan's grip and given his unique pivot, his supination intent doesn't affect the clubFACE much, it just affects the clubHEAD. Even if it affects the clubhead (moves the clubhead from away from the ball to the ball to past the ball), the face won't close as much. The supination is not for direction, its for distance. So Hogan, even with supination intent, wasn't trying to to time the face, he was just trying to move the clubHEAD as fast as possible. Note that Hogan also said that the timing of the face has already been taken cared of at setup, grip and waggle.

I'm sure Drew knows why exactly. But I believe he's not gonna tell anybody that...
[/quote]

This makes sense. This is very interesting stuff. The cupping vs bowing is what effects the clubface alignment, right? But the supanation is just moving the club head along the arc, just like you said. Good stuff.
[/quote]

The more you raise the handle through impact, the more supination affects clubface angle. The lower the handle, the more it contributes to clubhead speed (albeit a small effect).