Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits and Old-school era traits

[TeeAce]

Drew, what about comparing my video to Moe's intentions that he shows there. Nothing similar? Which way you see Moe demonstrating his forearm action? Do you understand why that doesn't happen when he makes his real swing?

[drewspin]

Are you really confusing action and reaction?

Nope. I agree it is very common and such confusions are common. I understand the dynamics that led to the positions, but starting with your grip and your opposite circles intents you are not going to experience having your calluses ripped off... LOL.

Nobody said anything about slinging. Big difference between a thrust with post impact intentions and a sling.

[b]The question was this: With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video of the first swing DTL, where is the divot and straight clubhead path pointed, with reference to an object on the horizon?[/b]

[b]Come on. If I'm so totally wrong that the divot points left over the net, then just tell me what you see it pointing at? Don't just call me out for lack of ability to understand a swing and 3D motion without answering the question. [/b]

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347387920' post='5624079']
Drew, what about comparing my video to Moe's intentions that he shows there. Nothing similar? Which way you see Moe demonstrating his forearm action? Do you understand why that doesn't happen when he makes his real swing?
[/quote]

Yes. I do. We had this discussion a couple months ago. The "horizontal drop" is followed by his dynamics through the impact zone.

The natural golf Moe palmed it in his right hand across the back of the shaft with fat grips and then chased it down the line with the left elbow leading the way.. the very strong palm grip in his right hand was a big part of the reason he went "out into the course" with his follow through and he's letting the legs react to that, thus the dip. Through the impact zone Moe wasn't cutting low and left with hands and counter-rotating in some theory an intention to have the club face move opposite (opening) to the inner circle.

[url="http://www.golfwrx.com/forums/topic/696980-moe-norman-ben-hogan/page__st__90#entry5305866"]http://www.golfwrx.c...90#entry5305866[/url]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347388424' post='5624127']
Are you really confusing action and reaction?

Nope. I agree it is very common and such confusions are common. I understand the dynamics that led to the positions, but starting with your grip and your opposite circles intents you are not going to experience having your calluses ripped off... LOL.

Nobody said anything about slinging. Big difference between a thrust with post impact intentions and a sling.

[b]The question was this: With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video of the first swing DTL, where is the divot and straight clubhead path pointed, with reference to an object on the horizon?[/b]

[b]Come on. If I'm so totally wrong that the divot points left over the net, then just tell me what you see it pointing at? Don't just call me out for lack of ability to understand a swing and 3D motion without answering the question. [/b]
[/quote]I

I answered that question in about half an hour. It's still there.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347387920' post='5624079']
Drew, what about comparing my video to Moe's intentions that he shows there. Nothing similar? Which way you see Moe demonstrating his forearm action? Do you understand why that doesn't happen when he makes his real swing?
[/quote]


i know why ,it's because he's exaggerating. something you know a lot about.

[drewspin]

"I answered that question in about half an hour. It's still there."

You seem really quick to jump on my failure to understand 3D swings, based on my comments, but then you won't say where you think that divot points on the horizon in the swing video. I say over the fence left. You say where exactly?

I was only using this as a single example that provides insight on the past discussions and your Right-eyed perspective, but it is becoming an example of your BS and inability to have an honest conversation.

I'm done.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347391668' post='5624439']
"I answered that question in about half an hour. It's still there."

You seem really quick to jump on my failure to understand 3D swings, based on my comments, but then you won't say where you think that divot points on the horizon in the swing video. I say over the fence left. You say where exactly?

I was only using this as a single example that provides insight on the past discussions and your Right-eyed perspective, but it is becoming an example of your BS and inability to have an honest conversation.

I'm done.
[/quote]

No, I just told you I answered to you at the first moment I could. Just read it.

And I know where my divots are pointing and that got nothing to do with eye-domination. They point very slightly to the left of target. I also know that I come to the ball from inside and every device shows that. So I can't really understand how it's me who cant have honest discussion, when you claim all this with one totally lousy video.

[ray ray]

do you know tapio that your divots can't tell you hardly anything about your ball flight , probably not. you can't tell the face angle from your divot can you?

dude you argue about things you have no knowledge about.

[drewspin]

The simple question was this:[b] With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video of the first swing DTL, where is the divot and straight clubhead path pointed, with reference to an object on the horizon?[/b]

Simple question. Are you saying you have already answered this Tee or you are going to answer it?

Because, so far. No response.

I stated what I claimed to be the case - path going left over the net, outside in (even if your feet are open, as shown by the divot, ball going right with open clubface (in relation to path)... not withstanding distortions on video, that's clear to me.

You've not said anything about where this is wrong, in your view with respect to reference points in the video.

Go for it.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1347393503' post='5624631']
do you know tapio that your divots can't tell you hardly anything about your ball flight , probably not. you can't tell the face angle from your divot can you?

dude you argue about things you have no knowledge about.
[/quote]

I think I was telling that to Drew.

But Ray, just have to say you know nothing about my knowledge. Tell me from that video where was I aiming and how much the shaft was across at transition.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347393714' post='5624669']
The simple question was this:[b] With your own eyes and mastery of the 3D environment through time, if you are looking at an object on the horizon in that video of the first swing DTL, where is the divot and straight clubhead path pointed, with reference to an object on the horizon?[/b]

Simple question. Are you saying you have already answered this Tee or you are going to answer it?

Because, so far. No response.

I stated what I claimed to be the case - path going left over the net, outside in (even if your feet are open, as shown by the divot, ball going right with open clubface... not withstanding distortions on video, that's clear to me.

You've not said anything about where this is wrong, in your view with respect to reference points in the video.

Go for it.
[/quote]

You can also tell me where I was aiming and how much left those divots were.

[drewspin]

I have no idea what you were aiming at. I just assumed it wasn't OB left over the net to deduce you were hitting an fade with an outside in path and open face.

Since you were there, just tell us what your target line was, and where you see that divot going.

Prove me the idiot. Go for it.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Drew,

You make some good points about the way you see the golf swing. Very technical sound opinions. I'm interested in what you do in your own swing. Do you do any type of supination or UD or any of that kind of stuff that you and TeeAce are discussing? What kinds of stuff do you see in your swing? Is there anything in particular type of movement you are working towards right now?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347394159' post='5624731']
I have no idea what you were aiming at. I just assumed it wasn't OB left over the net to deduce you were hitting an fade with an outside in path and open face.

Since you were there, just tell us what your target line was, and where you see that divot going.

Prove me the idiot. Go for it.
[/quote]

My aim was at the trees and the ball went straight. Just what makes you to see it comes from out, is the camera angle. Also you get confused about divots and you think they point to the left as the shape is like that. They might point left 3-5 degrees, no more. And the face was closed, not open. In other case ball never could fly like that.

Common mistakes that we make watching badly lined video.

So good night and try to figure it out. Early flight tomorrow...

[drewspin]

I'm watching the whole enchilada, T.

Good luck in your travels, and I sincerely wish your players all the best in qualifying.

[ray ray]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1347393784' post='5624681']
[quote name='ray ray' timestamp='1347393503' post='5624631']
do you know tapio that your divots can't tell you hardly anything about your ball flight , probably not. you can't tell the face angle from your divot can you?

dude you argue about things you have no knowledge about.
[/quote]

I think I was telling that to Drew.

But Ray, just have to say you know nothing about my knowledge. Tell me from that video where was I aiming and how much the shaft was across at transition.
[/quote]



thats the point, video can't tell. and your divots can't tell you face angle at impact seperation. i wasn't commenting on the video, they are all pretty much useless.

[drewspin]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1347394501' post='5624763']
Drew,

You make some good points about the way you see the golf swing. Very technical sound opinions. I'm interested in what you do in your own swing. Do you do any type of supination or UD or any of that kind of stuff that you and TeeAce are discussing? What kinds of stuff do you see in your swing? Is there anything in particular type of movement you are working towards right now?
[/quote]

I see a lot of crap in my own swing. I am as moe would say "a fatass" - so it's not pretty to watch.

I do not actively supinate if by that you mean have some intent to move my left thumb in a rollover pattern through impact. Nor do I hold off unless I am tring to play a specialty shot. Never the less, my supinator muslcles in my left forearm do fire very very hard as a consequence of my release.

As svsvincenzo would say, I like a large PA#3.

I am always trying to keep things simple and dynamic.

I am working on lower left side stability, left hip flexibility, and earlier left side extension.

And I'm really not trying to be critical of Tee - just think his eye dominance has a lot more to do with his set up and pattern than he thinks it does.

[TeeAce]

Drew,

 

You make some good points about the way you see the golf swing. Very technical sound opinions. I'm interested in what you do in your own swing. Do you do any type of supination or UD or any of that kind of stuff that you and TeeAce are discussing? What kinds of stuff do you see in your swing? Is there anything in particular type of movement you are working towards right now?

 

I see a lot of crap in my own swing. I am as moe would say "a fatass" - so it's not pretty to watch.

 

I do not actively supinate if by that you mean have some intent to move my left thumb in a rollover pattern through impact. Nor do I hold off unless I am tring to play a specialty shot. Never the less, my supinator muslcles in my left forearm do fire very very hard as a consequence of my release.

 

As svsvincenzo would say, I like a large PA#3.

 

I am always trying to keep things simple and dynamic.

 

I am working on lower left side stability, left hip flexibility, and earlier left side extension.

 

And I'm really not trying to be critical of Tee - just think his eye dominance has a lot more to do with his set up and pattern than he thinks it does.

 

And slinging?

 

 

I don't know where all this comes from, but so so so many that "knows" so much better than me how Hogan made it and supinate through impact looks like this. Just wear some orange and join Ricky's fan club, I dont know, but this is just opposite to Hogan. Opposite footwork, opposite hand and arm action. You just have to supinate Drew, no other way

[drewspin]

Sure, yeah grab a few stills and make some childish nonsense remarks. Class act.

Here are the videos, so at least there is a bit of context. Nowhere did I ever claim to swing like Hogan. Period.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJiTXiXHNFI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjMzIC2D6ls

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347412191' post='5626319']
Sure, yeah grab a few stills and make some childish nonsense remarks. Class act.

Here are the videos, so at least there is a bit of context. Nowhere did I ever claim to swing like Hogan. Period.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJiTXiXHNFI[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjMzIC2D6ls[/media]
[/quote]

Drew, you got any slowmo of your swing? I'm interested in how you (and all golfers) come into impact. Wanna see what happens before, at, and after your impact.

[tylerdurden]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1347412191' post='5626319']
Sure, yeah grab a few stills and make some childish nonsense remarks. Class act.

Here are the videos, so at least there is a bit of context. Nowhere did I ever claim to swing like Hogan. Period.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BJiTXiXHNFI[/media]

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SjMzIC2D6ls[/media]
[/quote]

Good stuff - I respect that you posted. Solid swing too. Doesn't matter too much if it's Hogan or not IMO. I can tell it's simple and repeatable. And interestingly, I know a guy who played in the US Senior Open and Senior British a number of times and his action is vey similar to yours. Especially through impact. He won our senior state am championship this year by 8 shots. And I'm not trying to imply you swing like a senior lol. Just giving context/compliment.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

Here ya go Drew. I slowed it down a bit.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2rtIfx72Us"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=b2rtIfx72Us[/url]

[ray ray]

Drew,

 

You make some good points about the way you see the golf swing. Very technical sound opinions. I'm interested in what you do in your own swing. Do you do any type of supination or UD or any of that kind of stuff that you and TeeAce are discussing? What kinds of stuff do you see in your swing? Is there anything in particular type of movement you are working towards right now?

 

I see a lot of crap in my own swing. I am as moe would say "a fatass" - so it's not pretty to watch.

 

I do not actively supinate if by that you mean have some intent to move my left thumb in a rollover pattern through impact. Nor do I hold off unless I am tring to play a specialty shot. Never the less, my supinator muslcles in my left forearm do fire very very hard as a consequence of my release.

 

As svsvincenzo would say, I like a large PA#3.

 

I am always trying to keep things simple and dynamic.

 

I am working on lower left side stability, left hip flexibility, and earlier left side extension.

 

And I'm really not trying to be critical of Tee - just think his eye dominance has a lot more to do with his set up and pattern than he thinks it does.

 

And slinging?

 

 

I don't know where all this comes from, but so so so many that "knows" so much better than me how Hogan made it and supinate through impact looks like this. Just wear some orange and join Ricky's fan club, I dont know, but this is just opposite to Hogan. Opposite footwork, opposite hand and arm action. You just have to supinate Drew, no other way

 

@ tapio

 

like i said earlier you have the wrong idea about gamma torque/supination and when it is applied by good golfers. it's a forearm action that is a small rotational movement that can be obscured in the swing by other things and Hogan had it, it doesn't matter the handpath direction it is still there and you can hit a fade if you have supination in your swing, because that is only dependant on path and face angle and aoa etc.

 

if you get those right you can hit any shot and have supination in all of them.

 

too bad you try and unload this crap on people, and show misleading pics as your proof, problem is they don't show intent , type of shot, target ,baseline ,

path, aoa, face angle etc., etc. they are misleading and pretty much useless as a proof of your theory or any theory.

 

cheers!

[bhughesgolf]

Drew
The right pic looks much better. The arms can extend post impact so long as the shaft is inline with the arms....and the clubface looks in pretty good shape there as it is still inline with your centre area....there is extension but no roll and moving the shaft off line or face closing .... that is a good indication that your pivot work is keeping up with the release...nicely done

See attached pic of myself when i was 21 and Tom Watson who hit the ball very solid and ripped off 8 Majors.... pretty similar in many factors there..... how is the striking going?

[attachment=1344713:drewwatson.JPG]

[JBOMB808]

Here goes nothing. Didn't really capture my takeaway, it's sorta a mess right now. Just working on a proper pivot with good contact and release. The first two swings are the same. Probably my best swing the whole session. There's a mid-iron and a wedge, then I finished with my only whippy bug graphite-shafted club, the 3-wood. Notice the lack of leverage I applied, the club's WAYYY too light. When I did try to step on one, I flighted mad stingers that although looked somewhat impressive, was not what I was looking for. Gonna be trading in this club soon.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1I46AvKWvU&feature=plcp[/media]
The lesson I learned from this particular range session was that if you 'feel' like you're in a position of little leverage going into impact, don't TRY to get into a position to leverage. All you'll do is block the club from doing its job.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='JBOMB808' timestamp='1347445040' post='5627911']
Here goes nothing. Didn't really capture my takeaway, it's sorta a mess right now. Just working on a proper pivot with good contact and release. The first two swings are the same. Probably my best swing the whole session. There's a mid-iron and a wedge, then I finished with my only whippy bug graphite-shafted club, the 3-wood. Notice the lack of leverage I applied. When I did try to step on one, I flighted mad stingers that looked somewhat impressive, were not what I was looking for. Gonna be trading in this club soon.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O1I46AvKWvU&feature=plcp[/media]
[/quote]

I don't see what you're not liking about it. Looks solid to me. Will slow mo it fer ya.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYqXkNvssVE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYqXkNvssVE[/url]

[IH82BOGEY]

Drew and Tee,
This is a good discussion to continue. Dont get mad and go home. Tee, why not put down something on the ground and re-film to show direction of divot, etc. My camera lies. I have a plane board for showing clubpath that I use sometime. I can physically make it square to the target but the camera shows it left???

[hoganfan924]

Divots aren't a definitive indication of path through the impact interval, especially in a Hogan type release. I hit small draws with my mid to short irons as my stock shot with divots that curve left of the target line. The downward strike at impact shifts the path rightward even when it appears you're "swinging left.". Plus hogans clubhead took a much quicker turn to the left than most, so trying to discern path by looking at the whole divot is folly. I'll make an exception in the case of divots that point dramatically in one direction. Used to play with a guy who's divots literally pointed about 30 deg to the right. Obviously he was a huge hooker/pusher/snap hooker!

[drewspin]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1346999094' post='5600665']
No it's not. It's just inside of the right heel. And my left thumb is just at the top of the shaft but DF makes the grip looking stronger than it actually is.
[/quote]

With the ball just inside the right heel, open the arms triangle, then chop it down and pull left making the hands path and the divot cut leftward. Sweet action.