Amateur swings vs Hogan: picking out the Hogan traits and Old-school era traits

[dairic]

[quote name='Ben Hogan Swing Project' timestamp='1347446876' post='5627951']
[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYqXkNvssVE"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYqXkNvssVE[/url]
[/quote]

JBOMB, looks good.

Do you per chance have a tendency to get stuck on the down swing? It appears that you overswing a bit at the top of the backswing. Arms keeps moving back after body stops turning resulting in right elbow landing behind right hip in transition. Shaft seems steep in down swing which may be related or how your recovering from the stuck position. Nice action overall though!!!

[JBOMB808]

Thanks dairic, appreciate it!~ I do have a major habit of overswinging. I grew up in WA state as a kid and Freddy Couples was my idol. When I was young I tried to model my swing after him. Because of that, I've always had issues going back to a more standard synced backswing. When I do try to focus on a compact swing, I tend to come 'over the top'. I've been playing around with a 'Moe-like' address position that really prevents me stop from overswinging because you start out pretty stretched. I'm still working on it though so I don't really put it into my range sessions, only my living room swings. Appreciate the feedback!

Never seen my swing in slo-mo before, thanks BHSP!

[TeeAce]

[quote name='IH82BOGEY' timestamp='1347450291' post='5628051']
Drew and Tee,
This is a good discussion to continue. Dont get mad and go home. Tee, why not put down something on the ground and re-film to show direction of divot, etc. My camera lies. I have a plane board for showing clubpath that I use sometime. I can physically make it square to the target but the camera shows it left???
[/quote]

Because I'm in Poland now with one of the players and continue from here directly to Q-school in Germany. Back in Finland about 22.9.

[svsvincenzo]

Drew,

 

You make some good points about the way you see the golf swing. Very technical sound opinions. I'm interested in what you do in your own swing. Do you do any type of supination or UD or any of that kind of stuff that you and TeeAce are discussing? What kinds of stuff do you see in your swing? Is there anything in particular type of movement you are working towards right now?

 

I see a lot of crap in my own swing. I am as moe would say "a fatass" - so it's not pretty to watch.

 

I do not actively supinate if by that you mean have some intent to move my left thumb in a rollover pattern through impact. Nor do I hold off unless I am tring to play a specialty shot. Never the less, my supinator muslcles in my left forearm do fire very very hard as a consequence of my release.

 

As svsvincenzo would say, I like a large PA#3.

 

I am always trying to keep things simple and dynamic.

 

I am working on lower left side stability, left hip flexibility, and earlier left side extension.

 

And I'm really not trying to be critical of Tee - just think his eye dominance has a lot more to do with his set up and pattern than he thinks it does.

 

And slinging?

 

 

I don't know where all this comes from, but so so so many that "knows" so much better than me how Hogan made it and supinate through impact looks like this. Just wear some orange and join Ricky's fan club, I dont know, but this is just opposite to Hogan. Opposite footwork, opposite hand and arm action. You just have to supinate Drew, no other way

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

If Drew exactly copies Hogan's exact positions and degree of R elbow bend as Teeace seems to impliedly suggest to Drew, he will develop a big time arm stall just prior to impact as his R elbow hits hard on his stomach...rofl

 

Edit: Btw, I'm a big fatass too...lol...so no disrespect to Drew...

[drewspin]

Facts are facts. No disrespect taken.

When I next hit balls, despite my girth I'll try go for that Hogan look just for kicks and post a video. You can easily see how I hold my butt line, but I have nowhere near the hip rotation as Hogan... so Hogan was able to rotate VERY deep into his left hip while maintaining stability and keep his core moving without stall. If you are that far around the circle the real Hogan power thrust has to have a more leftward arc as the center of your core has gone further CCW.

I've been far more interested in adopting other dynamics learned from both Brad and Fats that have straightened out my ball flight and made it FAR more consistent and simpler even though I don't get to practice much. I've not spent any time trying to copy Hogan positions before, but for your amusement, I will experiment and see if I can achieve more of that two butt cheeks look down the line, and the hands disappearing more left with the pivot....

This is much different that what Tapio is doing and describing with the arms triangle opening and the right hand holding UNDER and with as little forearm rotation as possible and an intent to keep the face open, BTW.

[svsvincenzo]

I'm saying you can't do the Hogan position and dynamics exactly that Tapio is implying you don't have because you can't make your arms more vertical like Hogan in the pics I posted. IMO this is one requirement why Hogan had his R elbow bent and close to his hip/pelvis---he has no stomach unlike us.

So Tapio actually telling you you don't have the Hogan dynamic and that you're "slinging" is actually quite idiotic for a teacher to say.

Brad's comment is different because he didn't say you "slinging", he just referred to the leverage of the club still being tagged along or pulled with leverage/angle maintained. So Brad is right, he knows you're not slinging (R elbow not as bent as Hogan at impact), it's just a necessity bec of the tire. I don't think you're losing the leverage on the left still pic though. It just doesn't matter at that point.

So if Tapio is your teacher and you followed what he said, you'll hit your stomach so hard you'll be knocked out on the ground...lol...that's what Tapio will declare pivot stall!...lol

[drewspin]

I'll shoot for the old man version:

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36_VDg-NpoY"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=36_VDg-NpoY[/url]

LOL

[dpb5031]

Great discussion here guys! Here is some video of my 13 year old daughter swinging her driver. Since she started I have tried to instill in her swing more of a Hoganesque/rotary move. I would say that 90% of the junior female golfers golfers out there sling it with a cross over/flip type of release. It's not uncommon to see them up on their toes as they let the club go flying by them.

Anyway, please have a look and comment. I know she has a lot to work on, but she hits it pretty good. We are really working on trying to get her to keep her left arm more connected to her upper torso through impact. Her left hand grip is very strong, and she has a tendency to hold it off. I would also like to see her clean up her pivot a little bit. It's a gradual process as I don't want to interfere with her natural athleticism and screw her up ala "paralysis by analysis." Also, although I am her primary coach, we have seen Geoff jones (Slicefixer) several times and follow his teachings. Can't say enough good things about the man...

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N_J1hLC8uc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=2&feature=plcp"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0N_J1hLC8uc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=2&feature=plcp[/url]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35yKa2WpPk&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l35yKa2WpPk&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=1&feature=plcp[/url]

[drewspin]

Haley looks tremendously awesome. I sent comments by PM.

And one more: teach her the Hogan waggle, BHSP put together a great waggle compilation.

[hoganfan924]

Pretty good swing overall! Going to be difficult for her to pivot well with that wide of a stance (which is partly why she gets up on the right toe early has that big foot drag in the downswing). I'd narrow it up about 4 inches. Also gets her left shoulder a bit high at the top of the backswing and then slides the upper body/head/left shoulder forward together in the transition.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347555977' post='5634841']
Pretty good swing overall! Going to be difficult for her to pivot well with that wide of a stance (which is partly why she gets up on the right toe early has that big foot drag in the downswing). I'd narrow it up about 4 inches. Also gets her left shoulder a bit high at the top of the backswing and then slides the upper body/head/left shoulder forward together in the transition.
[/quote]

Thanks HF924...great points. I don't bother Geoff with video and email because I know how busy he is. We are hoping to see him in October when he comes back to NY/NJ. Hopefully we will get a prescription for basement swing work over the winter.

What do you make of her high finish? Gets me thinking about some of the discussions involving Teeace and HG101...lol!

Generally, I take a minimalistic approach with Haley's swing instruction. It's a challenge teaching a kid. She plays tournament golf, which is important for the experience and to build confidence, so I don't want to screw her up. I am careful not to interefere with her swing too much during the season. She is not into reading about the golf swing or understanding concepts and theories; she just wants to play golf but will basically try to do what I tell her to do. One thing I've learned is that the golf swing is like DNA...each person's is unique, even if working on the application of common concepts.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347555977' post='5634841']
Pretty good swing overall! Going to be difficult for her to pivot well with that wide of a stance (which is partly why she gets up on the right toe early has that big foot drag in the downswing). I'd narrow it up about 4 inches. Also gets her left shoulder a bit high at the top of the backswing and then slides the upper body/head/left shoulder forward together in the transition.
[/quote]

Probably inherited that wide stance and some other flaws from the Old Man...lol:

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VPZ3PJlTc&list=UUZJjzkmwKKWJE-bPHsP3imA&index=3&feature=plcp[/media]

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347550726' post='5634331']
I'm saying you can't do the Hogan position and dynamics exactly that Tapio is implying you don't have because you can't make your arms more vertical like Hogan in the pics I posted. IMO this is one requirement why Hogan had his R elbow bent and close to his hip/pelvis---he has no stomach unlike us.

So Tapio actually telling you you don't have the Hogan dynamic and that you're "slinging" is actually quite idiotic for a teacher to say.

Brad's comment is different because he didn't say you "slinging", he just referred to the leverage of the club still being tagged along or pulled with leverage/angle maintained. So Brad is right, he knows you're not slinging (R elbow not as bent as Hogan at impact), it's just a necessity bec of the tire. I don't think you're losing the leverage on the left still pic though. It just doesn't matter at that point.

So if Tapio is your teacher and you followed what he said, you'll hit your stomach so hard you'll be knocked out on the ground...lol...that's what Tapio will declare pivot stall!...lol
[/quote]

No, everyone have to find what suites for him and if one kind of teaching is getting results, just go for that.

What makes me smile a lot, is that when people find something that works for them, they directly think it's Hogan. Drew can shoot it well, but is about opposite to Hogan as we can see.

An I also got stomach enough. It's even easier to get hands disappear behind you with big stomach

[drewspin]

Its quite amazing how defensive you get, Tapio. Once again, I am not claiming to swing like Hogan and I am not trying to copy his looks.

Anyone can do the moves you're doing Tapio. Put the ball back right off your inside of your right heel, open the arms triangle, keep the right hand under and pull down and across the foot line, with intent to holding the face open through the finish and the hands will appear to disappear low and left.

That ain't Hogan, and in your heart you know it.

Although you'd benefit it greatly if I just told you what Fats teaches, but forget it.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1347558564' post='5635015']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347555977' post='5634841']
Pretty good swing overall! Going to be difficult for her to pivot well with that wide of a stance (which is partly why she gets up on the right toe early has that big foot drag in the downswing). I'd narrow it up about 4 inches. Also gets her left shoulder a bit high at the top of the backswing and then slides the upper body/head/left shoulder forward together in the transition.
[/quote]

Thanks HF924...great points. I don't bother Geoff with video and email because I know how busy he is. We are hoping to see him in October when he comes back to NY/NJ. Hopefully we will get a prescription for basement swing work over the winter.

What do you make of her high finish? Gets me thinking about some of the discussions involving Teeace and HG101...lol!

Generally, I take a minimalistic approach with Haley's swing instruction. It's a challenge teaching a kid. She plays tournament golf, which is important for the experience and to build confidence, so I don't want to screw her up. I am careful not to interefere with her swing too much during the season. She is not into reading about the golf swing or understanding concepts and theories; she just wants to play golf but will basically try to do what I tell her to do. One thing I've learned is that the golf swing is like DNA...each person's is unique, even if working on the application of common concepts.
[/quote]

What discussion with me and Teeace specifically?

High finish of her is due to grip being strong, not the pivot in the case of Hogan. Hogan's grip is weak.

Nice swing of your daughter though. All the best for her.

[tofur99]

so then what is hogan, drew spin? how about contributing some useful information rather than bashing teeace. That goes for you too teeace.

[dpb5031]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347584150' post='5636817']
[quote name='dpb5031' timestamp='1347558564' post='5635015']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1347555977' post='5634841']
Pretty good swing overall! Going to be difficult for her to pivot well with that wide of a stance (which is partly why she gets up on the right toe early has that big foot drag in the downswing). I'd narrow it up about 4 inches. Also gets her left shoulder a bit high at the top of the backswing and then slides the upper body/head/left shoulder forward together in the transition.
[/quote]

Thanks HF924...great points. I don't bother Geoff with video and email because I know how busy he is. We are hoping to see him in October when he comes back to NY/NJ. Hopefully we will get a prescription for basement swing work over the winter.

What do you make of her high finish? Gets me thinking about some of the discussions involving Teeace and HG101...lol!

Generally, I take a minimalistic approach with Haley's swing instruction. It's a challenge teaching a kid. She plays tournament golf, which is important for the experience and to build confidence, so I don't want to screw her up. I am careful not to interefere with her swing too much during the season. She is not into reading about the golf swing or understanding concepts and theories; she just wants to play golf but will basically try to do what I tell her to do. One thing I've learned is that the golf swing is like DNA...each person's is unique, even if working on the application of common concepts.
[/quote]

What discussion with me and Teeace specifically?

High finish of her is due to grip being strong, not the pivot in the case of Hogan. Hogan's grip is weak.

Nice swing of your daughter though. All the best for her.
[/quote]

HG101, I really appreciate your knowledge and passion of Hogan and the golf swing in general, and that goes for TeeAce also. I love the discourse and the banter. I don't contribute a ton, and I don't understand it all, but I do read your discussions frequently. I find both of your theories interesting and you definitely get me thinking. I really enjoyed the discussion with regard to shoulder steepness and DTL versus low and left release thoughts. With regard to Teeace, some of the ideas he advocates have resonated with me, like when you swing left, but work the club in almost an opposite direction as is commonly thought. (sorry if I am misinterpreting or mis-representing his concepts)

With regard to my daughter, if you go to my Youtube channel (dpb113), you can see her swing back to when she was just ten years old and really just a raw beginner. Her finish was even higher then, though I think her grip is stronger now. The relevance to this thread is that I have tried to teach her Hogan-type rotary swing concepts as best I can as a basically self-taught (but currently 1 hc) player. In fact, I was a perennial 5-6 hc until I found and started following Slicefixer's teachings here on GolfWRX.

Anyway, all of you guys unknowingly help me to gradually put the puzzle pieces together... and I thank you for that. Probably the best thing I have going for me is my ability to read and digest all this stuff and still go out there and play/compete without getting caught up in too many mechanical thoughts while playing. I've been around long enough to know that there are not too many people who play this game seriously for 20+ years and all of a sudden truly improve as I have (6 to practically scratch). In my case it has mostly been a byproduct of paying attention to and applying the stuff I initially set out to learn simply to help out my kid.

[svsvincenzo]

Just saying that IMHO a stronger grip many time result to higher finish IF you adopt a purely rotary move/pivot with dead hands (just unc0cking, no rolling).

Hogan had weak grip, his L wrist/forearm rolls/supinates at impact zone, but still has a really high finish. Why? Normally, these will end up to a low finish, like many of us getting Hogan's swing. But Hogan, nope. And Hogan's hands REMAINS high. IMO he has to pull it down at finish.

IMO a similar phenomenon is present with Mr. Arnold Palmer. It's Mr. Palmer's strong grip that makes it even higher (that's why he has to hold it off because his hands are so high they passed thru on top of his head). Mr. Palmer had extra-super vertical shoulder turn.

My prediction is, the taller your daughter gets, the lower her finish will be.

[bhughesgolf]

 

This is a great view of Palmer from overhead......Hg101 can you point out where the steep/vertical shoulder pattern is

[drewspin]

Quoting excerpts from 5L:

The bridge between the address and the actual start of the backswing is "the waggle."

It is an extremely important part of shotmaking. . .[b]it is a sort of miniature practice swing,[/b] an abbreviated "dry run" for the shot coming up. As the golfer takes the club back on the waggle, he accustoms himself to the path the club will be taking on his actual backswing. As he waggles the club forward, he adjusts himself so that the face of the clubhead will be coming into the ball square and on line.

The shoulders do not turn during the waggle. The feet make only small adjusting movements. The hands and arms move. As they waggle the club, the hands and arms pass their rhythm, their tempo of coordination, on to the legs and feet. The trunk of the body and the shoulders pick up this beat, smoothly, from the arms and the legs. The whole body, in effect, becomes synchronized to the rhythm in which the various parts will be working cohesively together during the swing.

you can practically rehearse the swing you'll be using. I know that I have sometimes concentrated so hard on the shot I was going to hit that I honestly felt the shot could not fail to come off exactly as I intended. On those occasions I had the definite sensation that I had really hit the shot before I even started my club back.

In the waggle, the left hand is the controlling hand. The right works along with the left. EACH TIME YOU WAGGLE THE CLUB BACK, THE RIGHT ELBOW SHOULD HIT THE FRONT PART OF YOUR RIGHT HIP, JUST ABOUT WHERE YOUR WATCH POCKET IS. [b]WHEN THIS TAKES PLACE,[color=#ff0000] THE LEFT ELBOW, AS IT MUST, COMES OUT SLIGHTLY, THE LOWER PART OF THE ARM FROM THE ELBOW DOWN ROTATES A LITTLE[/color], AND THE LEFT HAND MOVES THREE INCHES OR SO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. [/b]AS THE HANDS MOVE BACK TO THE BALL ON THE FORWARD WAGGLE, THE LEFT HAND ALSO MOVES AN INCH OR TWO PAST THE BALL TOWARD THE TARGET. During the waggle, the upper part of the arms remain rooted against the sides of the chest. As we stated earlier, there should be no turning of the shoulders.


[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TmyYOivNYJM[/media]

For all general points and purposes, [b]the backswing is simply an extension of the way the golfer takes the club back on the waggle[/b]. The club follows that same path and it is swung back at the speed the waggle has regulated. There is, however, one significant difference between the waggle and the backswing which must be made crystal-clear. DURING THE WAGGLE, THE SHOULDERS DO NOT TURN. ON THE ACTUAL SWING, THEY DO, RIGHT FROM THE BEGINNING OF THE BACKSWING. THE BACKSWING IS, IN FACT, INITIATED BY THE ALMOST SIMULTANEOUS MOVEMENT OF THE HANDS, ARMS AND SHOULDERS. Introducing the shoulders does not alter the pattern you set up in the waggle. [b]By turning your shoulders on your actual backswing, you simply increase the arc of your waggle.[/b]

[b]* * *[/b]
Practice the waggle—perhaps 10 minutes a day. In this connection, I'd like to add one contingent thought. When the average player gets ready to hit a shot, some days, purely by accident, he does one or two key things correctly. He hasn't the faintest idea what these key things are, but he does them and consequently he plays quite well. On most days, however—on nearly all days, for that matter—he feels very uncomfortable and unconfident as he addresses the ball and he is completely baffled when he tries to figure out the remedies that will give him [u][b]that sense of Tightness[/b][/u]. "I just don't have it today," he rationalizes in his bewilderment. "I just can't feel a thing." Well, he's got it that day.[b] If he checks his grip and stance and waggles properly, he'll feel that he's got it and he'll be able to use it.[/b]

[svsvincenzo]

Note also that there is a drawing of the waggle in 5L (top of the BS waggle) wherein there is a line drawn passing thru the R wrist. That's why the L hand gets past/forward the ball by 3 inches or so...that R wrist never leaves that line...

[svsvincenzo]

 

This is a great view of Palmer from overhead......Hg101 can you point out where the steep/vertical shoulder pattern is

 

@Brad

 

Can't see the pic/vid you posted above. Not sure why you wanted me to point out the vertical-ness of the shoulder turn in an overhead view though...can you clarify...

 

In any case, here is a video of Mr. Palmer (start at 2:55 mark):

 

 

[dairic]

 

This is a great view of Palmer from overhead......Hg101 can you point out where the steep/vertical shoulder pattern is

 

@Brad

 

Can't see the pic/vid you posted above. Not sure why you wanted me to point out the vertical-ness of the shoulder turn in an overhead view though...can you clarify...

 

In any case, here is a video of Mr. Palmer (start at 2:55 mark):

 

 

 

Arnold's shoulder turn through impact seems fairly inline with the hips. You would call this steep? Steep relative to what?

[svsvincenzo]

Relative to the ground/ball of course. What's in your mind/opinion?

[dairic]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347676680' post='5642341']
Relative to the ground/ball of course. What's in your mind/opinion?
[/quote]

Its just that these steep vs flat discussions tend to go round and round because I believe that we are dealing with different definitions of steep and flat.

i.e. shoulders relative to ground vs shoulders relative to hips

Someone correct me if I'm wrong but I think brad relates shoulder steepness to the hips and now you've clarified that you relate steepness to the ground/ball. Apples and oranges?

[svsvincenzo]

I am referring more to the intent. You really have to intend to turn your shoulders vertical or truly parallel to the Hogan squared shoulder plane. It certainly won't feel level, it will feel vertical to the ground. Only way to keep your neck tilts and still maintain to face the ball directly or head-on on top of the swing. Plus as I've been saying, it will keep the clubhead path more DTL or straighter without having to sling the arms or lose the armpit connections. JMHO of course.

[tofur99]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1347680771' post='5642561']
I am referring more to the intent. You really have to intend to turn your shoulders vertical or truly parallel to the Hogan squared shoulder plane. It certainly won't feel level, it will feel vertical to the ground. Only way to keep your neck tilts and still maintain to face the ball directly or head-on on top of the swing. Plus as I've been saying, it will keep the clubhead path more DTL or straighter without having to sling the arms or lose the armpit connections. JMHO of course.
[/quote]

are you talking about the backswing too? or just getting the shoulders working vertical in ds/through impact?

[JBOMB808]

Working on a different 'feel' for the transition. I posted in my Knudson thread about it. I took out trying the 'pitch elbow' because it seems to happen automatically. Just as Hogan is known for posting the back leg/hip to pivot from, it seems that leading the entire body with the front knee helps the arms drop to a shallower plane (it seemed to me). I didn't lose ANY shots right. Nothing but straight/slight draws. I didn't try any 'wrist cupping', but I still need to make this 'downswing thought' second nature. It's like when I'm braced at the top, spreading the knees(opening the left one), while staying closed basically put me into impact without turning, thus saving rotation for after-impact. Tell me what you guys think. This is probably the best I've been able to hit it consistently. The first swing was literally my first swing when I got to the range, shocked myself.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=09NPjGehyig&feature=plcp[/media]

[svsvincenzo]

Hogan said turn the HIPS. In the Shell video he said the L knee and the hips. He didn't say just the L knee. So what in Hogan's mind is he turns his HIPS. That alone, nothing else, moves his arms and hands and elbows down to hip height.

Again, Hogan's face is directly looking at the ball, not down. IMHO of course.

[JBOMB808]

All I'm saying is the knees HAVE to SEPARATE. IF you watch closely on the transition/DS, Hogan separates his left knee from his "secret set-right knee/hip". IF the hips open too much before you reach impact, it's block-city. The arms drop 'a lot' for just moving the L knee and the hips. IF you lead the body with only the lead knee, EVERYTHING opens up. Simple biomechanics.
[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z-Nw__K1myQ[/media]
Watch the width of the knees at address and during the downswing and then right during/after impact (they close!).