Thoughts about iron "softness"

[MizzyMan]

I'm just wanting to throw out some opinions I've gathered from all these forums about irons and their softness. I've played a ton of different irons over the last 30 years and the last several with JDM exclusively. I hear all the time about how soft certain irons are such as Epon, Yamaha, Miura, etc. as if that was the holy grail of iron-making. I read one guy even say that a certain iron was so soft that he couldn't even feel the ball. As if that is a good thing?

 

Sure, most want something that's not harsh, but some can be too soft (IMO!). I've played Yamaha Tours, V forged, Epon AF Tours and 310's, Miura TB's, BB's and 501's, and several others that I can't even remember. Yamaha and Epon (both made by Endo) produce softer irons than Miura, no question. If that's what you're looking for, you won't find it in Miura, no matter how much someone tries to convince you. The Miuras are more about a solid, dense feeling like a big metal hammer onto a nail going into wood. That's what I prefer over ultimate softness when I choose which irons to play. Which is why I almost alway choose the Baby Blades, the rewarding feel they give me. Not saying they're better, just different. Some hit them and can't believe they're not softer such as Epons or some others, but that's not how they're made. I don't know all that goes into an iron, why some are softer, and the different techniques that are used, but clearly the objectives are different from maker to maker.

 

I just wanted to throw this out for people who might be interested in demoing some irons and come away disappointed after hitting something back-to-back with something else. Having owned and played all these irons I can honestly say that none are really better than any others, just different and it's up to you what you prefer.

[RLL33]

[quote name='MizzyMan' timestamp='1347029802' post='5601771']
Having owned and played all these irons I can honestly say that none are really better than any others, just different and it's up to you what you prefer.
[/quote]

I know what you mean by this, and I agree with you. I think what people often describe as "soft" is the feeling they get when they pure a shot and see (and hear) the ball come off at an iron's full potential. It's that magic "click" that we're always in search of with every swing...

I've tried a lot of irons, too, and finally found a great combination for me in one of the Miura's that few seem to use -- the CB301. Because of a slightly flatter swing plane I have, and a smooth tempo, I went to a fitter and we recently put Project-X pxi shafts in these, and the combination gave me a perfect trajectory and surprising length. (I also like a slightly lighter feel in irons.) The click I get off a pure shot with these is not really soft, but filled with just the right feel for me. It feels just awesome for me, for my swing. Never felt anything better in an iron.

I think the trick is not so much about "softness," but about feel. When I can feel in my hands how and why an iron is sending the ball where it's going -- whether from a pure hit or a missed hit -- that's the club I want in my hands.

[chiromikey]

i think soft has just become the "en vogue" verbiage around here...kind of like all the referrences to butter. it's just too difficult to describe in words the combination of feel, sound, and feedback that we get from a pure shot...so "soft" gets the nod. i'm guilty of it mysel and i know better, but it's a word that people relate to. to be honest, imho, softness comes from the ball, not the iron. if you want proof, go hit the new wilson duo ball. it's 40 compression is so soft you will have to look in the air to make sure you didn't miss the ball with your short irons...and i'm not exaggerating!!!

[MizzyMan]

You're right about the ball making a difference. One of my clubs I play at has brand new Pro-V1's at the range and short game area. The other has NXT Tours. Yikes! How can they put the word Tour on that ball? Pro billiards tour maybe...

And as far as the butter reference, I do think some irons do kinda feel like butter, really soft. Epon and Yamaha come to mind. Some are more dense and solid. Some are just, well, clanky for lack of a better word. Those are the ones that I really can't understand why people like them.

[mshills]

I posed this question a while back, and I've never understood "softness" as the be-all and end-all goal. If you really want soft, go get a 500 gram putter and a Laddie ball or something -- that will get the marshmallow feel for sure.

There are slight differences at the margins on irons, I suppose, but soft or not, a cast Ping iron feels as good as a Mizuno blade when you hit it on the nut.

[FLOGMR]

Ahhhhhhh.........finally someone speaks the truth!! I have always wondered how someone can claim that a piece of steel can feel "Soft" when striking a rubber ball. The "Softness" or "Hardness" of a golf iron head is measured in the Rockwell scale of hardness that quantifies the actually hardness of various materials.....[color=#0000cd][i][b][url="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rockwell_scale"]http://en.wikipedia..../Rockwell_scale[/url][/b][/i][/color].....the difference of actual hardness in iron heads ....from hardest cast to softest forged....is miniscule compared to the difference between the head and the golf ball.
Back in the '80's Fenwick was involved in the golf industry (shafts primarily) and commissioned some blind tests using some of the best golfers in the world at that time....guess what??? None of them could tell the difference between cast and forged in "Blind" tests...they used iron heads that were identical in appearance on identical shafts....they also could not feel the differences in shaft flex unless it was more than a full flex different.
I used to deal KZG clubs and they had the "MC II" which was identical to the "Forged II M"....one cast on one forged.....I could not tell them apart by hitting them and neither could anyone I tried the test with....Including a bunch of local pros and low 'cap amateurs
As mentioned above, I think the term "Soft" has taken the place of solid in the golf vernacular. Any iron hit right on the dot is going to feel....your choice....soft...solid....pure....awesome...sweet etc etc etc.
I spend all my days working on Miura clubs and all my games are played with them.....Boy when I hit them on the dot do they ever feel [i][b]soft[/b][/i]....Oops.....no they don't, they feel great because I have just hit it right where I am supposed to and got the corresponding sound, flight and feel I am looking for.....just like I do when I hit any iron well.

[idrive]

IMO there is an absolute difference in the "feel" of different irons, even when hit pure. Small or large there is a difference in feel.

The feel changes with the design, grind and even the size of the head and of course, the Golf ball.
For me the the type of metal can change the feel. Sound? Doesn't change the feel for me as I don't hear that well.....

As said, it all comes down to personal preference.

We are all different and all like what "we" like. I don't expect everyone to agree with me.... would actually be rather boring....

[hoganfan924]

The "soft feel" is really just a combination of two perceptions, sound and vibration felt in the hands. The ball will mainly affect the sound, but a super hard ball (like a suryln distance ball) will have less vibration damping than a soft premium ball so is likely to cause more clubhead vibration on off-sweet spot hits. The shape of the clubhead, it's construction and sweet spot location and how close you hit it to there will determine whether (and how much) vibration there will be. The shaft and how the shaft is attached (is it doweled or use other anti-vibration measures) and the grip used will play a big role in how much vibration is transmitted to the hands. In the case of Muira's, the fact that the hosel is inertia welded onto the head may affect how vibrations are damped.

A forged head should actually be more efficient in transmitting vibration than a casting (recall the Mizuno "ring test") as the grain structure is denser with less internal damping properties.

There's been a lot of study of "center of percussion" in things like baseball bats, etc. and exactly what it is but with a small thing like a clubhead, the center of percussion (aka sweetspot) is a single point on the face (probably in line or very close to the Cg) where no vibration will be generated. This is why when a ball is struck purely, you won't feel any vibration in your hands. We all know what it feels like to thin one on a cold day!

The idea that a 1018 steel clubhead is going to "feel softer" than a 1025 seems like pure fantasy to me. I know that there was once a test done with tour pro's (I think Ping did it) where they put ear plugs in the players and only one of them could tell the difference between a cast and forged head of the same geometry. What a 1018 [i]will [/i]do is wear out faster, ding easier and bend easier (including from hitting balls).

[PaulM26]

I think the "feel" of softness has more to do with the sound at impact than the actual feel of impact in our hands (and there may be a study or two verifying this). When I hit my RC VS Tours (Endo forged) on the screws, there is a different, muted sound that even my regular playing partner has commented upon. I do think that these clubs communicate the quality of the strike very well to me, which is a characteristic I value highly in irons.

In any event, my belief/guess is that soft feel is the combo of: a) the lessening of head vibration produced by a shot hit in the middle of the clubface (a trait that probably doesn't vary much between clubs and clubmakers), and b) the muted sound produced at impact (which seems to vary by clubs and clubmakers).

[FLOGMR]

Seems pretty much everyone agrees that there are different feels with various clubs.......due to sound and vibration....but let's not forget the OPs intent was to discuss "Softness"
Anyone who thinks that in the Milli-second that the ball is in contact with the head that they can detect a difference in metal softness is dreaming in technicolor !!!

[idrive]

Obviously I have more feel than most... and I dream in Technicolor

The impact of the ball is what creates feel, not the duration of the impact.

[mshills]

Sound does make a difference, so one could argue the design of the club head and the makeup of the shaft both affect sound. But to claim that one metal feels softer than another metal when striking a urethane ball is absurd.

[FLOGMR]

[quote name='idrive' timestamp='1347125276' post='5607609']
Obviously I have more feel than most... and I dream in Technicolor

The impact of the ball is what creates feel, not the duration of the impact.
[/quote]
Whow!!.......We must be related....you can tell the difference in metal hardness by hitting soft objects with it and I can detect the smell of xxxxxxxxxxx all the way across the internet..........Do you get cartoons with those dreams???

[MizzyMan]

My point was not to determine if one could tell the difference between 1020, 1025, etc, but that there are difference in feel in clubs, whether it be forging process, grind, sound that translates to feel, or whatever. To me, an Epon iron feels WAY different than every Titleist iron I've ever hit. Maybe it is the sound, so a guess I should say Titleist irons "sound" clanky to me as opposed to "feel" clanky. Whatever.

My point was that just because an iron feels/sounds softer doesn't mean it's better than one that feels/sounds more solid or less soft. Some prefer a more solid feel/sound (long as it's not clanky). That supreme softness, whether it be feel or sound, is not the be-all end-all.