Should Major Tournaments Continue to be Played on Classic Golf Courses??

[Johnny Biarritz]

So given the changes at The Old Course in St. Andrews, changes done to Merion (East) in preparation for the 2013 US Open, and changes to courses all over, I've been thinking about whether or not courses should continue to be modified or if these tournaments should be taken to new venues.

 

Basically, there are 4 options:

1) Accept low scores at these courses and stop modifying them

2) Continue to modify and in some cases ruin classic golf courses

3) Change the turf conditions to a foolish degree in order to increase course difficulty

4) Award these tournaments to newer, longer courses that don't have to be altered

[jdhallissey]

People are thinking of this all wrong. Slow up the fairways. Make them a bit smaller. Then watch the old courses still eat guys for lunch. Perfect Example Harbour Town! Pros don't want to play there because it is to hard. What is it 6800 yards. Leave the greens at the same speeds but don't let the ball roll 50 yards once it hits the ground.

[Johnny Biarritz]

You mean the Harbor Town where the winning scores have been -14, -12, -13, -20, and -15 the last 5 years?

Quail Hollow for the Wells Fargo Championship is also played on bermuda fairways. -14 won there and that course is over 7400 yards

The Players is also played on bermuda...-13 won and the course is 7200 yards.

Now, if the USGA and the public wants to accept those scores for US Opens, that's fine. But they won't and we won't. They need to find ways to have really long courses where angles and positioning are important and have high penalty for misses. Tight fairways are not the best answer, though if they USGA wants to take the Open to courses that are too short that's what they have to do.

[jdhallissey]

Why does everybody think they hit it 900 miles? If they played a 7200 yard course like the rest of the public (fairways with about 10 yards of roll) not the typical 40 or so yards. The USGA runs a fine line because they want the bombs out there so the game looks more attractive.

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1354678889' post='6020225']
Why does everybody think they hit it 900 miles?

[color=#ff0000]Because they do hit it 900 miles. The average drive on tour is likely 290 yards, averaged out on hard and soft fairways, everything.[/color]

If they played a 7200 yard course like the rest of the public (fairways with about 10 yards of roll) not the typical 40 or so yards. The USGA runs a fine line because they want the bombs out there so the game looks more attractive.
[/quote]

Just as a quick example, I'm not the longest of hitters, but I'm not short either. 280, maybe 285 yards on a normal, semi-soft bermuda fairway not unlike those seen at Harbor Town. The course I play most often is 7212 yards long. For clubs hit into the green, I use: 9i, 6i (par 3), GW, LW (par 5), 8i, LW (par 5), GW, 3i (par 3), PW, PW, GW, PW, SW (par 5), 6i (par 3), 9i, SW (par 5), 5w (par 3), 6i. So that's 12 short iron or wedge approach shots on a 7200 yard course with normal fairways. Longer tour guys probably run that up to 15 and will be able to reach 3 of the par 5's in 2 shots. You give tour guys those approach clubs, guys that are 10-15 shots better than I am on a daily basis and they'll shoot -20 over 4 days.

It's not so much total yardage, it's total yardage PLUS variety. However, that said, the total yardage had better be in the 7400 yard range if you want to give tour guys a challenge without having to bake out the course and make it rock hard. But that's another matter.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354641242' post='6017121']
So given the changes at The Old Course in St. Andrews, changes done to Merion (East) in preparation for the 2013 US Open, and changes to courses all over, I've been thinking about whether or not courses should continue to be modified or if these tournaments should be taken to new venues.

Basically, there are 4 options:
1) Accept low scores at these courses and stop modifying them
2) Continue to modify and in some cases ruin classic golf courses
3) Change the turf conditions to a foolish degree in order to increase course difficulty
4) Award these tournaments to newer, longer courses that don't have to be altered

Read the full write-up here:
[url="http://affordablegolfdesign.blogspot.com/2012/12/should-major-tournaments-continue-to-be.html"]http://affordablegol...inue-to-be.html[/url]
[/quote]

False choice.

The people running these tournaments need to stop trying to have their cake and eat it too.

A large part of the problem is the course set-up. I remember an article by Casey Martin when he played in the US Open...and he was so freaked out by the fact that (during practice rounds) [b][i]he was watching tournament officials watering the rough, and mowing the fairways with GREENS MOWERS. [/i][/b]

Drying out the fairways and mowing them down to heights that used to be reserved for greens may encourage marginal drives to run into the rough...but they also give 50 or 60 yards of run to drives that are flushed. Making these courses play very short for the given yardage.

All it would take is growing the rough off the fairways, and slowing down the fairways to make these courses play to their full length. It just requires that the USGA (and other) give up trying to effectively narrow the landing area by scalping and scalding the fairway turf.

[kellygreen]

[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354712123' post='6021217']
[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1354678889' post='6020225']
Why does everybody think they hit it 900 miles?

[color=#ff0000]Because they do hit it 900 miles. The average drive on tour is likely 290 yards, averaged out on hard and soft fairways, everything.[/color]

If they played a 7200 yard course like the rest of the public (fairways with about 10 yards of roll) not the typical 40 or so yards. The USGA runs a fine line because they want the bombs out there so the game looks more attractive.
[/quote]

Just as a quick example, I'm not the longest of hitters, but I'm not short either. 280, maybe 285 yards on a normal, semi-soft bermuda fairway not unlike those seen at Harbor Town. The course I play most often is 7212 yards long. For clubs hit into the green, I use: 9i, 6i (par 3), GW, LW (par 5), 8i, LW (par 5), GW, 3i (par 3), PW, PW, GW, PW, SW (par 5), 6i (par 3), 9i, SW (par 5), 5w (par 3), 6i. So that's 12 short iron or wedge approach shots on a 7200 yard course with normal fairways. Longer tour guys probably run that up to 15 and will be able to reach 3 of the par 5's in 2 shots. You give tour guys those approach clubs, guys that are 10-15 shots better than I am on a daily basis and they'll shoot -20 over 4 days.

It's not so much total yardage, it's total yardage PLUS variety. However, that said, the total yardage had better be in the 7400 yard range if you want to give tour guys a challenge without having to bake out the course and make it rock hard. But that's another matter.
[/quote]

Sorry, but you are a long hitter by anything but PGA Tour standards.

Also, if you are hitting that many short irons, then you are either playing on a course with lots of downhill approaches....or on a course where there was very little variety designed into the hole lengths.

[Johnny Biarritz]

[quote name='kellygreen' timestamp='1354713087' post='6021259']
[quote name='Johnny Biarritz' timestamp='1354712123' post='6021217']
[quote name='jdhallissey' timestamp='1354678889' post='6020225']
Why does everybody think they hit it 900 miles?

[color=#ff0000]Because they do hit it 900 miles. The average drive on tour is likely 290 yards, averaged out on hard and soft fairways, everything.[/color]

If they played a 7200 yard course like the rest of the public (fairways with about 10 yards of roll) not the typical 40 or so yards. The USGA runs a fine line because they want the bombs out there so the game looks more attractive.
[/quote]

Just as a quick example, I'm not the longest of hitters, but I'm not short either. 280, maybe 285 yards on a normal, semi-soft bermuda fairway not unlike those seen at Harbor Town. The course I play most often is 7212 yards long. For clubs hit into the green, I use: 9i, 6i (par 3), GW, LW (par 5), 8i, LW (par 5), GW, 3i (par 3), PW, PW, GW, PW, SW (par 5), 6i (par 3), 9i, SW (par 5), 5w (par 3), 6i. So that's 12 short iron or wedge approach shots on a 7200 yard course with normal fairways. Longer tour guys probably run that up to 15 and will be able to reach 3 of the par 5's in 2 shots. You give tour guys those approach clubs, guys that are 10-15 shots better than I am on a daily basis and they'll shoot -20 over 4 days.

It's not so much total yardage, it's total yardage PLUS variety. However, that said, the total yardage had better be in the 7400 yard range if you want to give tour guys a challenge without having to bake out the course and make it rock hard. But that's another matter.
[/quote]

Sorry, but you are a long hitter by anything but PGA Tour standards.

[color="#ff0000"]Oh, I am not trying to say that I am a short hitter, far from it. I just wanted to make it clear that I'm not Bubba Watson off the tee. Yes, 280 off the tee is longer than probably 98% of all golfers.[/color]

Also, if you are hitting that many short irons, then you are either playing on a course with lots of downhill approaches....or on a course where there was very little variety designed into the hole lengths.

[color=#ff0000]Well, you hit the jackpot right there. Yes, the course lacks variety in hole lengths.[/color]
[/quote]

[teejaywhy]

I do think that many of the older, classic designs can be overpowered by the modern pro game. But I also think the modern tournament setups just contribute to that rather than the intended result.

Memberships are free to do what they want to their courses, but I think it is a shame to make significant changes to a historic design, just for the top fraction of a percent of all golfers to play for 4 days every 5 or 6 years. These guys are the best players on the planet. They are going to shoot low scores.

The classic designs are highly regarded for a reason and imo changes should not be made without careful consideration. It just seems odd to choose a course that is highly regarded, then apply a setup that totally ignores the features and strategies that make the course what it is in the first place.

The goal of protecting par is ridiculous in my view, especially when the extreme use of artificial setups are applied. Super high rough, super narrow fairways, super fast greens. I saw some pics of the mowing lines they have incorporated at Merion and it looks silly. I think one of the stupidest looking things with tournament course setups are all the fairway bunkers orphaned in a sea of deep rough, 10 or more yards away from the fairway.

One big problem is many old style courses have bold green contours that become unplayable at today's green speeds. Rather than choose to slow the greens (slower greens are hated by the pros), they are flattening the contours and thus removing the charm and character that made the course classic in the first place. I believe they flattened some of the greens at Merion and now they are flattening the Eden hole at TOC.

I also think that the setups imposed take away options and strategy and actually rewards the target style golf and just look at the list of US Open champions for the past 20 years to see a list of fluke winners. Turning golf into a strictly aerial game is a mistake in my view. Pros love predictability. They are totally in their comfort zone when they can execute their perfectly robotic golf swing, hit the ball the perfectly calculated distance and have the ball stop at perfectly measured target distance in a predictable manner. Soft fairways and greens are the perfect conditions for scoring. Put some quirk and unpredictability into the equation (the hallmark of many of the highly regarded classic courses) and the pros hate it. Throw ground contours or wind into the equation and now the pros have to think about it. Golf is as much a mental exercise as it is physical and the game loses a major facet when one simply has to repeat one's perfect golf swing.

What is the answer?

- Play the championships on the classic courses and embrace the features that distinguish the course. Mow the fairways out to the hazards and allow the contours of the ground and firmness of the fairways to reward good shots and penalize poor ones AS THE COURSE WAS DESIGNED by allowing the ball to feed into the hazards and awkward positions. Let the scores fall where they may. If there is no wind when the Open is held at TOC, oh well.

- Perhaps the idea of using a "tournament ball" would support the previously described concept.

- Play the championships on modern 7800 yard TPC courses and add windmills or whatever you want to 'protect par.'

But don't try to turn the classic courses into TPCs.