Bent vs. Mini Verde Greens

[SoonerChris]

So, after 80 or so years, our country club has made the decision to move from bent to mini verde turf for our green. Over the past couple of years there have been many things which have lead us to this decision. Infection, among others has made a large impact on the decision.

 

I am very indifferent about this decision as I have played at this course my entire golfing career, over 20 years.

 

Can someone tell me what to expect moving to mini verde? The first thing I'm sure sill be different is the speed. We have been having to pt so much water on our greens in the summer to keep them alive they are normally slow in the summer.

 

What else can I expect?

[OK_Golf]

chris,

I think Oklahoma must be the new frontier for bent to bermuda conversion. I'm in a Tulsa and local muni here recently went to bermuda. In high summer the greens were fantastic, smooth and VERY quick. They were also much firmer than I was used to. The firmness was last summer which was the first or second season after conversion, so the age may have been a factor. I also think there's a possiblity the course is keeping the greens as firm as possible since so many people refuse to fix ball marks! I'll be interested to see how the greens do this summer. Another benefit is a reduce amount of aerification. These greens have not had a spring arefication (yet), but that's because the greens are still dormant. That is a downside: the number of months the bermuda goes dormant. They can roll them and keep them decent, but here in tulsa they greens are probably dormant from November to March. i'm hoping they are back growing again in April.

Interested to hear anybody elses experiences.

OK_Golf

[greensideup]

[size="5"][color="#000000"]Chris,[/color][/size]

[size="5"][color="#000000"]I am an avid golfer who grew up on bent and poa greens in the DC area. Having been a golf course superintendent I am now a sod farmer and along with many other grasses, grow and install MiniVerde. Over 90% of our work with this grass is in replacing bent greens. Trust me this wouldn’t be happening if the surface wasn’t equal of superior to that of the bent. At the end of the day golfers vote with their putters and after installing this grass on over 100 golf courses in NC, SC, VA, GA, TN, FL, AR, KY and MO - nobody has asked for their money back. They should be firmer than the bent. They should get a bit softer over time but in general they should remain more firm. The reasons are that they have a much sturdier root and therefore don’t yield to the impact of the ball as much as the bent did and because the bermudas are thatchier than bent they must be topdressed more often to ensure they do not become too thatchy. If they do get soft – look out, as this is a sign that they are not being cared for properly. Because of the firmness we always recommend to our clients that they pay particular attention to the approaches. [i]They [/i]need to be kept firm as well which means paying more attention to irrigation and drainage in these areas. Firm and consistent approaches will allow the bump-and-run to become a bigger part of the game as it used to be, otherwise it becomes nearly impossible for average golfers to access front pin placements.[/color][/size]


[size="5"][color="#000000"]I have gotten to the point whereI prefer playing on good bermudagrass over bent. I miss a lot of greens and I can trust my chips and pitches more on these firm, new and improved ultradwarf bermudagrasses like MiniVerde, over the old bent. Good luck and roll um true! Hank [url="http://www.modernturf.com"]www.modernturf.com[/url] [/color][/size]

[Blues Golfer]

Some courses around here are converting too (NC).

First, their firmness makes chipping and pitching a little different. It will take time to get the speed and roll right from off the green. I have found that when they are even "average" hard for miniverde, the ball can roll a lot more than it would on bent. I've seen iron shots into greens that would have held with bent, but roll across the green on miniverde.

As for putting, the ball behaves a little differently. I find that the ball rides on the blades almost like it's "skating." It's not bumpy, it will hold its line, it just feels like it glides more than bent. Once you get used to the sensation, it's fine.

the upside is it's unreal how balls leave little or no ball mark. Even when hitting a high iron into the green, there will usually be a small ball mark, if any. So the overall surface stays in good condition. If your course gets a lot of play and the bent greens show a lot of (repaired) ball marks, you won't miss that part of bent grass.

[pulleddeadleft]

Just my opinion from playing many rounds on both but I much prefer bent. The mini verde greens will have grain in them and will take some getting use to. If you mis-hit your put and put any cross spin on it you will certainly notice. Not bad greens at all but the do not roll as true as bent, again just my opinion

[jptruck]

Well maintained Mini-Verde is better than bent. I play on some wonderful bent greens, but they have been taking a beating due to heat the last few years. Mini-verde is the way to go if you have the right climate. I know OK is hot in the summer. I"m sure they will be fine.

[Mags]

I believe the only mini verde I've played on was at TPC Myrtle Beach last November. If I recall, they were running around 10-11 that day. They were very firm but if you made good contact with your approach shot there should not be any huge issues with getting the ball to stop on the greens. Rather than hitting and plugging like on soft bent, they may take a hop or two but because of the firmness they don't lose spin because they don't make huge craters. You might actually notice starting to pull shots back more because of this.

For chipping, again, it all comes down to making good contact. I'm not a high spin short game player but even so noticed a HUGE difference in how much shots would run out. You can get used to it somewhat quickly though unless you're used to flying the ball most of the way to the hole and stopping it on the first or second hop.

The biggest thing for me was with putting. I usually think I make good contact with the putter, getting the ball rolling pretty quickly as it should. However, at TPC that day, just about any putt over 10ft I could see the ball skidding immediately after leaving the putter face, sometimes not starting to roll for 3-4ft. After it started rolling, the break happened exactly as I saw it and grain wasn't really a factor. But with those first few feet skidding I more or less didn't start a single putt where I intended. Very frustrating having an issue I've NEVER seen on bent pop up and not really being able to practice on making it better.

[Fourmyle of Ceres]

Over the years there have been some guys with funky strokes who've won on the Tour. Some of those guys, if they had to play on Bermuda greens stimping 9, would take 35 putts a round. Very, very fast greens and especially very, very fast Bent greens will let you roll the ball with all sorts of loopy/kinky strokes as long as your touch and your nerves are good.

[golfheaven69]

We changed to Champions Bermuda four years ago. You can't beat bent when they are good but Bermuda can handle the NC summers so much better. Much faster and definitely firmer. We aerated four (yes it was brutal) times last summer to allow them to hold shots. It worked but we gave up decent paying conditions all summer.

With this said playing on good bent greens is better in my book.

[SoonerChris]

And so, it has begun...

 

[TNSooner]

Chris,

I grew up in OK (El Reno) and now live in Nashville. Like you, up until several years ago, I much preferred bent greens to bermuda because the vast majority of bermuda greens (if not verti-cut often), could become the great equalizer for good players vs. average players and the technology in creating a hybrid type of grass that was suitable for a really solid putting surface was still in it's infancy. The advances that have been made in bermuda strains now (Mini-Verde), in my opinion are far superior to other types of bermuda that can be used for putting surfaces.

Gaylord Springs here in Nashville and Council Fire in Chattanooga have some of the best putting surfaces that I've ever played on and, like I said, I've always been a bent grass guy. At the club that I'm a member at (Old Hickory Country Club) here in Nashville, we are about to do the same thing in converting from bent to Mini-Verde and I can honestly say that I'm excited about it. We're going to do it a little different that what it looks like they are doing at your club (Where are you at?) by spraying the existing greens with Round-Up several times and then sprigging them. Gaylord did the same and in 6 weeks after the procedure they were back on them and in 8 weeks they were perfect. Our new Supe is from The Farm in Dalton, GA and he went thru a similar procedure there and has everyone really looking forward to this. During the transition, we are going to reshape several of the greens that will give us the ability to have more pin placements to reduce the amount of wear that the existing greens are currently experiencing...

Based on your pictures, it looks like you all had some problems fighting off Poa Annua in some of the greens (as many bent grass clubs do) and, if done correctly, you won't have that problem with Mini-Verde.

Keep the pictures coming...I'm very interested to see the grow-in.

[SoonerChris]

I'm in Oklahoma. I can't remember if they were sprayed before hand. We did have issues with poa on some greens and the one pictured was NOT the worst. You can't tell, but this green was the worst in the amount slope from back to front. It was almost unplayable. And if it was left the same, with Bermuda, would be unplayable. I just go off the phone with a buddy who said the reconturing of that green was complete.

As well, we are adding around 30,00 sq ft. to all the greens in total to account for the Bermuda creep. It's going to equal out to around 3 ft around every green.

I'm going to go out to that green at lunch (I live on the course and have my own cart) and snap a few pics.

[SoonerChris]

Couple more pictures.

 

[jdhallissey]

The hardest thing about the switch is will the grounds crew learn how to maintain the greens with the different turf. I am not a fan of bermuda at all. I don't like how grainy it is. If you get out and play on bent greens that are taken care of and rolled nothing beats it. To the guys who hate it in the winter months because of it going dormant well you need to talk to the greens super to have them overseed with winter rye that will play just like bent then die off and the bermuda just grows in when it gets warm again.