The Arm Swing Illusion / Jim Waldron's Swing Philosophy

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1430769085' post='11497123']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1430768365' post='11497019']
Probably a good time to remind everyone - especially anyone new to this thread and only reading the past few pages - that I do indeed teach swing mechanics! In fact, I spend at least 70% of my time teaching full swing mechanics, about 20% of the time putting and short game mechanics, and mental game about 10% of the time.

But I want my students to clearly separate learning/training mechanics -which is a science/craft/engineering project (and a lot of it is done at slower than normal swing speeds away from a ball) - from playing golf, which is an art/athletic performance. Polar opposite states of mind.
[/quote]

I know you're busy. . .but I sure wish you had time to start another mega-thread about the mind game. The ASI concept may be your greatest contribution to golf lore (I think it's one of THE greatest) but hardly anyone (maybe no one) has been able to deliver Zen concepts well for golfers . . . or is it non-concepts? I think you have the mind and golf instructional experience to be the master the game has been waiting for. Maybe someday . . . .
[/quote]

Thanks for your kind words. I have made a few shout-outs to doing an ongoing thread on the mental game, but so far - not much feedback from forum members who would like to see that kind of thread.

I do have the background in Zen, having started a serious study of Buddhist and Taoist philosophy over 50 years ago, and studying with two very well-regarded teachers. And I have used some of those Zen principles in my golf teaching practice since I started teaching in 1992. I don't normally use the word "zen" though, since it turns some folks off, and some think of it in the religious sense, which I do not. I just talk about "awareness" and "focus" and stuff like that. Keeps it real for students.

[irish jim]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1430770223' post='11497259']
[quote name='mc3jack' timestamp='1430769085' post='11497123']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1430768365' post='11497019']
Probably a good time to remind everyone - especially anyone new to this thread and only reading the past few pages - that I do indeed teach swing mechanics! In fact, I spend at least 70% of my time teaching full swing mechanics, about 20% of the time putting and short game mechanics, and mental game about 10% of the time.

But I want my students to clearly separate learning/training mechanics -which is a science/craft/engineering project (and a lot of it is done at slower than normal swing speeds away from a ball) - from playing golf, which is an art/athletic performance. Polar opposite states of mind.
[/quote]

I know you're busy. . .but I sure wish you had time to start another mega-thread about the mind game. The ASI concept may be your greatest contribution to golf lore (I think it's one of THE greatest) but hardly anyone (maybe no one) has been able to deliver Zen concepts well for golfers . . . or is it non-concepts? I think you have the mind and golf instructional experience to be the master the game has been waiting for. Maybe someday . . . .
[/quote]

Thanks for your kind words. I have made a few shout-outs to doing an ongoing thread on the mental game, but so far - not much feedback from forum members who would like to see that kind of thread.

I do have the background in Zen, having started a serious study of Buddhist and Taoist philosophy over 50 years ago, and studying with two very well-regarded teachers. And I have used some of those Zen principles in my golf teaching practice since I started teaching in 1992. I don't normally use the word "zen" though, since it turns some folks off, and some think of it in the religious sense, which I do not. I just talk about "awareness" and "focus" and stuff like that. Keeps it real for students.
[/quote]

[irish jim]

Hi Jim,
I would love it hear more on this topic as I am a lifetime slave to swing thoughts/ feels. I would love to be able to free myself . The problem is that when I try not to focus on mechanics my mind sort of blanks out. I was wondering if this is normal and what should I be focusing on when swinging at normal speed.
Regards
Jim.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='irish jim' timestamp='1430850394' post='11503979']
Hi Jim,
I would love it hear more on this topic as I am a lifetime slave to swing thoughts/ feels. I would love to be able to free myself . The problem is that when I try not to focus on mechanics my mind sort of blanks out. I was wondering if this is normal and what should I be focusing on when swinging at normal speed.
Regards
Jim.
[/quote]

Great question! Also could be its own thread. Kind of like asking "how do you (CM) play golf?". First, absence of thinking is not the same thing as absence of consciousness. So very likely you are not "blanking out" - although that can certainly happen, and does indeed happen when someone yips badly. By definition, if your CM is not in fact losing consciousness in a micro-second "blackout" like a yip, then it is always aware of something. That "something" is what I call the Focal Point.

In my research going back several decades, in talking with tournament winners, both pro and amateur, I have found four categories of Focal Points that can work well: Target Picture, Body, Neutral and Peak emotional states like Confidence. Body means some aspect of your swing, but never technical swing thoughts, ie visual images about your moving body parts or auditory "commands" to those body parts. "Feels" associated with the body are often reported, even though sometimes the person in question will call those "feels", "swing thoughts". Feel Channel focal points are only possible from first person perspective, and there is no "thought", ie no visual images of the body, and no voice commands of CM to the body, what I call "talking to body parts".

Anytime you are not using Target Picture as your focal point, or the one thing your CM is narrowly focused on, you want to put Target Picture in the "background" of your awareness, in a vague kind of way. In other words, it is important to never lose sight of your Primary Outcome Intention, which is to send the ball to your target. So you could use grip pressure as your CM focal point in the foreground of your CM awareness, and put Target Picture in the background. Once your CM has merged with grip pressure in Feel Channel, during Setup, you keep it there all the way to the Finish.

Target Picture means the final resting place for the ball, like the flag, any object in the background behind and in line with the target that stands out as an aid in aiming and in sensing target direction like a tree trunk, and the ball pictured in the sky at its apex. Could be all three blended together or just one of those things.

Neutral focal points are for anxiety-ridden golfers who can't use the other categories, since they trigger anxiety. Counting backwards from 100, for example. Or "easy peasy, lemon squeezy" said over and over in auditory channel like one famous LPGA pro uses.

Peak states are simply emotional states like Confidence, Freedom, Trust, Courage, etc that you merge your mind with.

Now of course what I just described is a very rudimentary introduction to some very advanced mental game instruction that normally takes a full 7.5 hours of instruction in my mental game school Rip It to the Target to fully present, and for the student to engage in and begin the process of mental game mastery.

But that answers your question to some degree I hope, as to what to focus on. The real problem is not so much not knowing what to focus on, rather it is that your CM wants to WANDER - a lot!! And that wandering mind will instantly leave your chosen focal point as soon as you start your swing, and by time you get to Finish, it might have wandered over to six different focal points, none of which help, and may hurt your golf shot.

[Reasonability]

Jim do you have recommendations about our auditory sense as it applies to the game? I seem to recall you mentioning it many posts-ago.

How would "rabbit ears" work for or against us typically?

Thanks in advance.

[4pillars]

Jim

As I know you are a martial artist what do you think of keeping the attention on the one point/hara during the swing.

[4pillars]

Jim

I have been pondering on it for about an hour, and I don't really see how you can focus on a state, such as confidence.

Focusing on a target or a feel is "tangible" but how can you focus on a state?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1430899955' post='11508251']
Jim

I have been pondering on it for about an hour, and I don't really see how you can focus on a state, such as confidence.

Focusing on a target or a feel is "tangible" but how can you focus on a state?
[/quote]

Emotions aren't "tangible"? All emotions are experienced in kinesthetic or feel channel, ie in the body. You feel confident over a golf shot, and you go with that feeling as your focal point. Google "Stanislowsky Method Acting" for more info on this.

Another way to understand this is my concept of the Three Centers. A human being will experience their own "state" and function in one of three primary ways: mental center (thinking), movement center (feeling body motion) or emotional center (feeling emotions). One of these will be dominant or in the foreground of consciousness at any given moment in time. And one will be the main way of being for the SM to function as well. In sports, the SM is functioning mainly in the movement center. In acting, the emotional center. In solving a complicated math problem, the mental center. (I am referring to the kind of "thinking" that can happen deep in the background of the SM while asleep or while engaged in other CM tasks, with the "answer" coming into consciousness later).

Target Focus is mental center. Confidence focus is emotional center. Feeling your hara - as you asked about - is movement center.
And yes - hara is a very effective focal point for the CM when hitting a golf shot!

Thinking is mental center using either the visual channel or auditory channel.

To me, actually playing golf, (as opposed to indulging in mental speculation about swing theory, which is currently en vogue and which many golfers apparently now believe is the same thing as playing golf!), is all about controlling your state, so that your SM is free to do what it knows how to do best, ie move your body and thus your club, to send the ball to the target.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Reasonability' timestamp='1430878740' post='11507201']
Jim do you have recommendations about our auditory sense as it applies to the game? I seem to recall you mentioning it many posts-ago.

How would "rabbit ears" work for or against us typically?

Thanks in advance.
[/quote]

"Rabbit ears" meaning being sensitive to noise while swinging? If that is how you define it, it just means your mind is prone to wandering. Concentration is a golf skill as essential as learning how to pivot correctly - maybe even more essential. It just takes time to get really good at it. "Lots of reps" for mental focus too!

But on Tour, "rabbit ears" means being too open to changing your swing based on someone else's view of the swing. Disaster is the usual outcome.

The main thing about the auditory channel for golf is the internal version, ie talking to yourself about what your body should or should not do. The infamous "checklist" of sixteen things to "think about" while swinging! Also disaster as the outcome.

[Jim Waldron]

A longtime student asked me recently what my Top Five fundamentals/skills for better golf are. I thought about that for a few days, and of course the real answer is "it depends on the student" I am working with. But in general, in a Big Picture way, these are the things that matter to me the most as a coach. I know that they have a huge influence - either directly or indirectly or both - on the quality of your ball flight, and thus your score and enjoyment of the game.

#1. Awareness skills. Especially mental focus ( how to tame a wandering mind) and body awareness, ie how to feel your body in motion. With those two skills, you can use exercises/drills to strengthen your brain-mind/body connection and improve your coordination, which to me is a really Big Deal in golf. Meaning I often see new students who have a pretty good grasp of swing theory, but have a tough time transferring than knowledge to better body and club motion. And Awareness skills are how Deep Insights or "light bulb" moments are at least partially achieved, meaning you won't have the light go off if you are lacking in awareness.

#2. Balance - including feet to ground connection, steady head and upper swing center (sternum) and Lower Body Stability Platform. Balance in feet, meaning toe to heel (north-south) balance along a Vertical Balance Line (from dtl view), and sideways (east-west), and achieving proper lateral weight shift in balance.

#3. Setup, including Aim and Alignment. Everyone can learn how to Setup as well as the top tour pros. Just takes some time posing in front of your mirror! A great Setup increases the odds that you will be able to learn a much better body motion. Trying to learn a better body motion from a poor starting position is just like trying to untie a knotted ball of string!

#4. The basic ASI concept and how it relates to creating and maintaining "space" in the swing and the synchronization of arm motion with pivot motion. And the subset Illusions regarding the wrists, right arm angle and upper arms, especially during Release and Impact. I include the Triangle concept as part of this as well.

#5. The Pivot - to me, the foundation of Dynamic Balance, Swing Shape (through two of it's main elements, forward Spine Angle and side tilt) and Power. Doesn't get any more important than those three things!

So that is how I answered his question. Does not mean other stuff is not important, certainly. Just my own observations from over 20 years of teaching.

[4pillars]

Interesting that four of these would be the same for martial arts, at least for Aikido, which I am familiar with.

The one out would be the ASI.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='4pillars' timestamp='1430988388' post='11515259']
Interesting that four of these would be the same for martial arts, at least for Aikido, which I am familiar with.

The one out would be the ASI.
[/quote]

Tons of things that golf and martial arts share!

The golf club is kind of like a katana, or samurai sword, in that it has to be wielded with utmost precision to land a blow onto a precise target, and that you use your entire body, from the ground up, and from the inside (core) out, to power the blow.

Hogan believed (in my opinion) that Balance was the number one physical fundamental and he worked on swinging in balance, a lot. Knudson also believed this and wrote a book about it.

Your brain is hard-wired with something called the "righting instinct". It kicks in when you start to lose your balance, like slipping on an icy sidewalk. You use your arms and/or legs as counter-weights to keep from falling down. Same thing happens - although in a much subtler way - in your golf swing when you start to lose balance. Problem is your brain cares more about protecting you from injury due to the fall than it does about your golf swing and golf shot outcome. Usually the attempt to re-gain balance causes one or more mechanical flaws to manifest in your swing, so you don't actually fall over, but your shot sucks. Point being you need to learn how to setup in "rock solid balance" (Hogan's term) and to swing to the Finish in "rock solid balance". Pretty much wasting your time on any kind of technical swing mechanics until you have learned how to do that, in my opinion. First things first!

[Smash Factors]

I think I'm grasping the concept here. I may be a bit off on my understanding, but the way I see it is that the swing is basically just a shoulder turn with a little wrist hinge or c0ck, a bending right elbow, and another shoulder turn down into the ball as the right elbow un-bends and the arms straighten back out. Not a perfect explanation, but a general grasp of what's going on. I have a question.

This is a very long thread and honestly I don't really have the time to read through the entire thing.

This question has probably been answered at least one time already, but I'll ask it anyway.

In what way does this "swing" change when we are going from short irons, to mid, to long and to the woods?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1431114330' post='11524773']
I think I'm grasping the concept here. I may be a bit off on my understanding, but the way I see it is that the swing is basically just a shoulder turn with a little wrist hinge or c0ck, a bending right elbow, and another shoulder turn down into the ball as the right elbow un-bends and the arms straighten back out. Not a perfect explanation, but a general grasp of what's going on. I have a question.

This is a very long thread and honestly I don't really have the time to read through the entire thing.

This question has probably been answered at least one time already, but I'll ask it anyway.

In what way does this "swing" change when we are going from short irons, to mid, to long and to the woods?
[/quote]

For those in a hurry, the basic concept is clearly explained in about the first 25 pages. But you will miss some good stuff on Tilt Switch and ASI influence on the forward swing if you stop reading there.

Steve - your description is generally accurate, as you suggested. To clarify just a bit, not just a shoulder turn, the Pivot is a blend of hips, core and torso/shoulder girdle spinning like a vortex in space, while the levers of upper arms moving away and up/in and down, wrists c0cking/un-c0cking, and right elbow bending/un-bending are moving in a V shape in front of the spinning chest. Pivot is mostly - although certainly not only - a motion in the horizontal dimension, and the levers are mostly - but not only - moving in the up/down and width dimensions.

Left arm to chest angle will be more to the right of mid-line of torso for the longer clubs, about 70-75 degrees with a driver, 45 degrees for a wedge, at the Top. Reflecting more pivot momentum leaking into the upper arms with the longer clubs. And the fact that you make slightly different Spine Angles and rightward tilt at Setup, and distance from ball of your feet, and arm hang at Setup, will also cause some slight differences to how the body moves with different club categories. Club will move on a lower/flatter plane with longer clubs, with a shallower angle of attack, compared to shorter clubs. Not something that you have to make happen, its a result of the club design and the Setup differences I mentioned.

[Jim Waldron]

A member asked me to explain more clearly the concept of mental focus, or "how exactly do you concentrate?". In my golf schools, when describing concentration, I use the following demo. I hold up my two hands in front of my face, and then say "Okay, my left hand represents your chosen focal point, let's say Target Picture, and my right hand represents your sense of self, the part of you that you consider your conscious personality or mind. Notice the two feet of space between the two? Most folks think of concentration as your CM/self 'looking at' or noticing the focal point, with that two feet of space between self and focal point staying intact. That is not true concentration. Real focus is when you merge the two so that there is NO SPACE left in your mind for any other thoughts or distractions to intrude!," and I bring my two hands together until they are touching.

Once this is clearly understood, you will quickly find it much easier to stay focused during your swing, and the chances of your mind wandering off are greatly reduced. Obviously you really, really have to commit to your focal point!

[Smash Factors]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431118510' post='11525173']
[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1431114330' post='11524773']
I think I'm grasping the concept here. I may be a bit off on my understanding, but the way I see it is that the swing is basically just a shoulder turn with a little wrist hinge or c0ck, a bending right elbow, and another shoulder turn down into the ball as the right elbow un-bends and the arms straighten back out. Not a perfect explanation, but a general grasp of what's going on. I have a question.

This is a very long thread and honestly I don't really have the time to read through the entire thing.

This question has probably been answered at least one time already, but I'll ask it anyway.

In what way does this "swing" change when we are going from short irons, to mid, to long and to the woods?
[/quote]

For those in a hurry, the basic concept is clearly explained in about the first 25 pages. But you will miss some good stuff on Tilt Switch and ASI influence on the forward swing if you stop reading there.

Steve - your description is generally accurate, as you suggested. To clarify just a bit, not just a shoulder turn, the Pivot is a blend of hips, core and torso/shoulder girdle spinning like a vortex in space, while the levers of upper arms moving away and up/in and down, wrists c0cking/un-c0cking, and right elbow bending/un-bending are moving in a V shape in front of the spinning chest. Pivot is mostly - although certainly not only - a motion in the horizontal dimension, and the levers are mostly - but not only - moving in the up/down and width dimensions.

Left arm to chest angle will be more to the right of mid-line of torso for the longer clubs, about 70-75 degrees with a driver, 45 degrees for a wedge, at the Top. Reflecting more pivot momentum leaking into the upper arms with the longer clubs. And the fact that you make slightly different Spine Angles and rightward tilt at Setup, and distance from ball of your feet, and arm hang at Setup, will also cause some slight differences to how the body moves with different club categories. Club will move on a lower/flatter plane with longer clubs, with a shallower angle of attack, compared to shorter clubs. Not something that you have to make happen, its a result of the club design and the Setup differences I mentioned.
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanations Jim. Your descriptions are very near to my understanding of this swing.

I went to the range tonight and gave this a try. I'm used to struggling when I make changes, but it really wasn't that bad. I had no intentions of bringing this swing to the course on Sunday, but now I just might.

The back-swing is actually much simpler now. The arms are not swinging horizontally across the body. The relationship between the shoulders, arms, hands and shaft remain virtually unchanged while the club is getting to the 3:00 position. It's just a turn. The shoulders, torso and hips all work together in tandem when taking the club back. There is some wrist hinge but that's mostly because of momentum and the weight of the club. From 3:00 (Or very near to there), the right elbow just bends and I'm at the top of the swing. Everything up to this point is not very complicated. It's all about making a good turn and keeping things connected. The wrists c0ck a little bit and the elbow bends.

What I'm having problems with is getting the down-swing started correctly. Although I hit many accurate shots with my 8 iron, I did pull-draw several. It wasn't until I got home that I thought that maybe it's not a bad idea to be thinking about leading with the right elbow in the down-swing. I'm headed back to the range tomorrow to see if that straightens things out.

So far, I like what's happening.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1431146415' post='11527187']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431118510' post='11525173']
[quote name='Steve Ryan' timestamp='1431114330' post='11524773']
I think I'm grasping the concept here. I may be a bit off on my understanding, but the way I see it is that the swing is basically just a shoulder turn with a little wrist hinge or c0ck, a bending right elbow, and another shoulder turn down into the ball as the right elbow un-bends and the arms straighten back out. Not a perfect explanation, but a general grasp of what's going on. I have a question.

This is a very long thread and honestly I don't really have the time to read through the entire thing.

This question has probably been answered at least one time already, but I'll ask it anyway.

In what way does this "swing" change when we are going from short irons, to mid, to long and to the woods?
[/quote]

For those in a hurry, the basic concept is clearly explained in about the first 25 pages. But you will miss some good stuff on Tilt Switch and ASI influence on the forward swing if you stop reading there.

Steve - your description is generally accurate, as you suggested. To clarify just a bit, not just a shoulder turn, the Pivot is a blend of hips, core and torso/shoulder girdle spinning like a vortex in space, while the levers of upper arms moving away and up/in and down, wrists c0cking/un-c0cking, and right elbow bending/un-bending are moving in a V shape in front of the spinning chest. Pivot is mostly - although certainly not only - a motion in the horizontal dimension, and the levers are mostly - but not only - moving in the up/down and width dimensions.

Left arm to chest angle will be more to the right of mid-line of torso for the longer clubs, about 70-75 degrees with a driver, 45 degrees for a wedge, at the Top. Reflecting more pivot momentum leaking into the upper arms with the longer clubs. And the fact that you make slightly different Spine Angles and rightward tilt at Setup, and distance from ball of your feet, and arm hang at Setup, will also cause some slight differences to how the body moves with different club categories. Club will move on a lower/flatter plane with longer clubs, with a shallower angle of attack, compared to shorter clubs. Not something that you have to make happen, its a result of the club design and the Setup differences I mentioned.
[/quote]

Thanks for the explanations Jim. Your descriptions are very near to my understanding of this swing.

I went to the range tonight and gave this a try. I'm used to struggling when I make changes, but it really wasn't that bad. I had no intentions of bringing this swing to the course on Sunday, but now I just might.

The back-swing is actually much simpler now. The arms are not swinging horizontally across the body. The relationship between the shoulders, arms, hands and shaft remain virtually unchanged while the club is getting to the 3:00 position. It's just a turn. The shoulders, torso and hips all work together in tandem when taking the club back. There is some wrist hinge but that's mostly because of momentum and the weight of the club. From 3:00 (Or very near to there), the right elbow just bends and I'm at the top of the swing. Everything up to this point is not very complicated. It's all about making a good turn and keeping things connected. The wrists c0ck a little bit and the elbow bends.

What I'm having problems with is getting the down-swing started correctly. Although I hit many accurate shots with my 8 iron, I did pull-draw several. It wasn't until I got home that I thought that maybe it's not a bad idea to be thinking about leading with the right elbow in the down-swing. I'm headed back to the range tomorrow to see if that straightens things out.

So far, I like what's happening.
[/quote]

Hi Steve - thank you for your feedback!

Transition into downswing is a complex part of the swing, no easy answers, absolutely requires an actual lesson in order to understand it correctly and then move on to the next stage which is execution.

For some of my students, when in the early stages of working on the ASI concept, particularly the backswing part of it, they will sometimes experience the pulled shot, and that is because they have not yet mastered the forward swing part. In other words, their old swing Fatal Flaw of pulling the upper arms across mid-line just before and during impact is still there, and if you do that bad move from a more "in front" of the chest Top of backswing position, since you are starting from a position closer to mid-line to begin with, then of course you will end up pulling the ball left, ie it creates an out to in clubhead path. A big part - maybe the most important - of the ASI material is how it influences a proper forward swing, ie the true meaning of "connection" which is that in the horizontal dimension, just before and until just after impact, the shoulder girdle/thorax and the upper arms are moving as one firm unit. Your core is exerting a pulling force on your shoulder girdle, which is pulling on your upper arms. If you have established the proper level of "cohesive tension" (subtle!) in your Triangle, then the upper arms will move with the shoulder girdle. And that will fix the pulled shot, now you can achieve a more neutral path.

Most amateur golfers, in the mid to high handicap range especially, are actively pulling or "throwing" the upper arms across mid-line of the torso, and doing so while trying to "time" a proper Pivot Thrust (usually for the better ballstriker) which is quite difficult to do well, or while stalling the Pivot (also tough to do well with any kind of consistency). When you have a good Triangle, and a correct Top position of arms in relation to the chest, then during the later part of the downswing, when you start to Pivot Thrust, you can make the delivery of the clubhead into the ball something that is much easier to attain with a high degree of consistency, by having the s girdle/upper arms moving at the same speed in the horizontal dimension. (arms are moving at a faster speed in the down and out dimensions).

In fact, one of the truly revolutionary parts of the ASI material, is how the lead upper arm moves just before and until just after impact. When I ask my new students how they understand that body part is moving at that point in the swing, everyone moves their upper left arm sideways across mid-line and toward the target. Good strikers do the exact opposite. Because of the thorax/s girdle blend of rotation and rightward tilt in this segment, with upper arms part of Triangle moving with the base of the Triangle, ie the thorax/s girdle, the upper left arm where it joins the shoulder socket is moving in three dimensions: up toward the sky (from the right tilt) , around to the left in the horizontal dimension, and backwards away from the target. It is literally "backing up"! And what happens to the lower end of the left arm when the upper end is backing up away from the target? It moves toward the target and very fast! An important secondary power source.

Only after impact, with momentum pulling on the clubhead, shaft and arms, does the left upper arm stop this backing up move, and start to move to the left, ie toward the target, and cross mid-line of the torso.

All of which is brilliantly explained in the great book by Dr. Jorgenson "The Physics of Golf".

[Silky]

I greatly appreciate your exposition on the mechanics and mental aspect of playing golf -- the best information that I can find in the internet.

1. Within the limit of golf teacher-to-teacher etiquette, could you compare your ASI concept in back swing to that of Leadbetter's "A" swing? Frankly speaking, he is a lot better in commercializing while you are way above in exposing the truths.

2. I appreciate the concept of maintaining the Triangle during the Pivot Thrust before and beyond Impact. I would prefer to call the shoulder girdle and arm structure during the pivot torquing the Rotor Arm instead of the Triangle . I have notice different positions of the right elbow - so called punched, pitched. I guess that is not important as long as you maintain the Rotor Arm through the Pivot Thrust? Now, some great strikers like Hogan, have their upper right arm attached to the ribcage while some - Lydia Ko, have their upper right arm in vertical position to the ground with the right elbow floating away from the ribcage. Can you comment on that?

3. Some teachers advocate the concept of "throwing the club " action. But there's another, that sometimes I try, the flailing action through impact - like striking a match. Can you comment on the proper concept?

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431310617' post='11535504']
I greatly appreciate your exposition on the mechanics and mental aspect of playing golf -- the best information that I can find in the internet.

1. Within the limit of golf teacher-to-teacher etiquette, could you compare your ASI concept in back swing to that of Leadbetter's "A" swing? Frankly speaking, he is a lot better in commercializing while you are way above in exposing the truths.

2. I appreciate the concept of maintaining the Triangle during the Pivot Thrust before and beyond Impact. I would prefer to call the shoulder girdle and arm structure during the pivot torquing the Rotor Arm instead of the Triangle . I have notice different positions of the right elbow - so called punched, pitched. I guess that is not important as long as you maintain the Rotor Arm through the Pivot Thrust? Now, some great strikers like Hogan, have their upper right arm attached to the ribcage while some - Lydia Ko, have their upper right arm in vertical position to the ground with the right elbow floating away from the ribcage. Can you comment on that?

3. Some teachers advocate the concept of "throwing the club " action. But there's another, that sometimes I try, the flailing action through impact - like striking a match. Can you comment on the proper concept?
[/quote]


Thank you for your positive feedback!

1. I am not familiar with Lead's new A swing concept, so cannot comment.

2. Right elbow position is important, but nearly as important as the Triangle being moved by the Pivot Thrust. Pitch is closer to the model, since it tends to permit more arms in front and more shaft shallowing. But not everybody is flexible enough (body-type) to do pitch. I do prefer to see upper right arm closer to the body, ie moving at same speed, with some contact during Pivot Thrust, since it tends to lead to more precision during Release and Impact.

3. Not sure precisely what you mean by "throwing the club" vs "flailing". Sounds like possibly flailing is a later wrist c0ck release point, and throwing earlier? There are several possible major Release options, the main factors being the release point, or where in the forward swing the wrist c0ck angles start to open, active vs passive wrist c0ck release, hinge angle in back of right wrist function at impact, ie "frozen" (no change until well after impact), micro-release (very slight release of some small degree just before and during impact), and a "flip" release, or a larger hinge angle change just before and during impact. (corresponding to low, mid and high trajectory golf shots), and degree of forearm rotation during Release.

In keeping with my overall philosophy of avoiding extremes (Balance Point or "middle way"), I prefer to see a passive release for most of my amateur students (folks of average fitness and skill, with a slow to medium pivot speed), a micro-released hinge angle for moderate shaft lean at impact,(no "holding on" or "steering") and moderate to high degree of forearm rotation, to offset their tendency to slice and to make it easier to square the face at impact, and mid release point or about butt end of club about a few inches outside the right thigh.

[Silky]

Wow, thanks Jim. I am not a religious person but I do know some Buddhist philosophy. I learned to enjoy playing golf by maintain ing myself to be emotionally settled and balanced but never associate that with the "Middle Path" or "Balance Point". Now I realize what you mean by Balance Point. That must also somewhat relate to the Least Action Principle in physics.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431393126' post='11541720']
Wow, thanks Jim. I am not a religious person but I do know some Buddhist philosophy. I learned to enjoy playing golf by maintain ing myself to be emotionally settled and balanced but never associate that with the "Middle Path" or "Balance Point". Now I realize what you mean by Balance Point. That must also somewhat relate to the Least Action Principle in physics.
[/quote]

Taoist concepts sounds similar to your mention of Least Action Principle!

And there is some overlap between Taoism and Buddhism, for sure.

I call it Balance Point not only because of the middle way approach, which is huge in golf instruction due to the unfortunate historical tendency for trendy golf teachings that swing back and forth every decade or so between polar opposite extremes. Is the swing mostly arms or mostly body? "Arms! - Wrong - Body!" or consciously shift your weight in the backswing to your rear leg v your weight should be on your front leg! (early version of S & T ). Not a good thing for the golfing masses! That dynamic is based on the Fallacy of the Extremes syndrome, which we see being played out in politics and religion as well. It's also because I believe that Balance is the physical fundamental that has the most influence on your ball flight outcome. And that the balance between your three Centers - movement, thinking and emotional - is very essential to playing great golf. One reason I use the Triangle as our company logo....

[Jim Waldron]

Many of you have asked about the status of my new Great Shot! golf swing/ballstriking video series, and I am happy to announce that our first of ten Modules in that program will be available for download from our website www.balancepointgolf.com on May 25. The first video is titled Module One A: The Six Laws of Club Motion, and is one hour and 42 minutes of viewing time.

The material covers what the golf club design is all about, and how and why that design has certain built-in qualities that require the "club/instrument" to move in a precise way in order for you to make solid contact with the golf ball, and with enough power and accuracy to play great golf. One of the first things I discovered when I began my teaching career over 22 years ago, was that many students - especially mid to high handicaps - struggle with learning an effective golf swing, because they lack that understanding of how the club is supposed to move, the ideal impact conditions, and how power is created and delivered into the ball. I found that there were six "laws" for effective club motion, and that when those six laws were present in a golf swing (assuming good starting position and aim at Setup), a good shot outcome was guaranteed.

I also discovered that teaching pure body mechanics in a "vacuum", ie absent that understanding of how the club is designed to move, resulted in poor learning outcomes of those all important body mechanics. I found that when students understood that club design supported why I was asking them to move their body part in a precise way, then that piece of mechanical learning happened at a much faster rate, and the learning was permanent, ie it supported dominant habit formation. Knowing the club design laws made it much more likely for them to achieve a "light bulb" moment about how to move their body.

Module One B and Module Two: The Arm Swing Illusion are nearly complete, with a target release date for June 15. Module One B is about some of the basics of body motion, the three pre-swing fundamentals of grip, setup and aim, some basic swing theory, baseline balance and tempo, and other related topics. There is a "body of knowledge" about the golf swing and how to create a golf shot that is sorely lacking in the game of golf in general, and again - especially among mid to high handicaps, and Module One Parts A and B will cover that information. Module Two turned out even better than I expected, and covers the Arm Swing Illusion in depth, along with all of it's many ramifications on other parts of the golf swing.

[Silky]

Jim,

I have a strong suspicion that the "flat left wrist" is a major fallacy in golf teaching that spanned decades. I hope you have that covered in the modules. Nevertheless, your comments here will be greatly appreciated.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431677775' post='11562548']
Jim,

I have a strong suspicion that the "flat left wrist" is a major fallacy in golf teaching that spanned decades. I hope you have that covered in the modules. Nevertheless, your comments here will be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

I think flat left wrist as a general principle is quite right, but like any valid swing concept, if taken to absolute extremes, it can become a problem. It really just means that you want to create a Long Lever from left shoulder, down a straight left arm, through a left wrist that is in that same long line of left arm with the shaft, so that the left arm and shaft are in the same plane. It makes for better contact between ball and clubface and for better transference of power, compared to a long lever that has a "kink" in it at the wrist joint.

Again - this is a Law of Body Motion that I am describing, not the same thing as something that you consciously try to do in the golf swing. If your grip, grip pressure and wrist action during backswing are sound, and then you are pivoting properly on the forward swing, the flat left wrist at impact (or nearly flat, very slightly bent or slightly bowed can also work) is something that just happens.

Timing of your Release pattern also can affect this, too early or too late can create not enough or too much forward shaft lean.

[Silky]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431680116' post='11562578']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431677775' post='11562548']
Jim,

I have a strong suspicion that the "flat left wrist" is a major fallacy in golf teaching that spanned decades. I hope you have that covered in the modules. Nevertheless, your comments here will be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

I think flat left wrist as a general principle is quite right, but like any valid swing concept, if taken to absolute extremes, it can become a problem. It really just means that you want to create a Long Lever from left shoulder, down a straight left arm, through a left wrist that is in that same long line of left arm with the shaft, so that the left arm and shaft are in the same plane. It makes for better contact between ball and clubface and for better transference of power, compared to a long lever that has a "kink" in it at the wrist joint.

Again - this is a Law of Body Motion that I am describing, not the same thing as something that you consciously try to do in the golf swing. If your grip, grip pressure and wrist action during backswing are sound, and then you are pivoting properly on the forward swing, the flat left wrist at impact (or nearly flat, very slightly bent or slightly bowed can also work) is something that just happens.

Timing of your Release pattern also can affect this, too early or too late can create not enough or too much forward shaft lean.
[/quote]

My current thinking is that the wrists should yield to momentum of the club in the backswing and the forces from the Law of Body Motion in the downswing which the club move in different planes. I have difficulty in visualizing the same flat left wrist accommodating the left forearm and the club moving in different planes.

I do understand the concept of the left arm flying wedge or the Long Lever as you described, that is, "from left shoulder, down a straight left arm, through a left wrist that is in that same long line of left arm with the shaft, so that the left arm and shaft are in the same plane". My confusion is that the c0cking and unc0cking of the club also define a plane that does not contain the left shoulder.

[DannyG]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431632485' post='11559810']
Many of you have asked about the status of my new Great Shot! golf swing/ballstriking video series, and I am happy to announce that our first of ten Modules in that program will be available for download from our website www.balancepointgolf.com on May 25. The first video is titled Module One A: The Six Laws of Club Motion, and is one hour and 42 minutes of viewing time.

The material covers what the golf club design is all about, and how and why that design has certain built-in qualities that require the "club/instrument" to move in a precise way in order for you to make solid contact with the golf ball, and with enough power and accuracy to play great golf. One of the first things I discovered when I began my teaching career over 22 years ago, was that many students - especially mid to high handicaps - struggle with learning an effective golf swing, because they lack that understanding of how the club is supposed to move, the ideal impact conditions, and how power is created and delivered into the ball. I found that there were six "laws" for effective club motion, and that when those six laws were present in a golf swing (assuming good starting position and aim at Setup), a good shot outcome was guaranteed.

I also discovered that teaching pure body mechanics in a "vacuum", ie absent that understanding of how the club is designed to move, resulted in poor learning outcomes of those all important body mechanics. I found that when students understood that club design supported why I was asking them to move their body part in a precise way, then that piece of mechanical learning happened at a much faster rate, and the learning was permanent, ie it supported dominant habit formation. Knowing the club design laws made it much more likely for them to achieve a "light bulb" moment about how to move their body.

Module One B and Module Two: The Arm Swing Illusion are nearly complete, with a target release date for June 15. Module One B is about some of the basics of body motion, the three pre-swing fundamentals of grip, setup and aim, some basic swing theory, baseline balance and tempo, and other related topics. There is a "body of knowledge" about the golf swing and how to create a golf shot that is sorely lacking in the game of golf in general, and again - especially among mid to high handicaps, and Module One Parts A and B will cover that information. Module Two turned out even better than I expected, and covers the Arm Swing Illusion in depth, along with all of it's many ramifications on other parts of the golf swing.
[/quote]

Jim, I purchased your Great Shot ebook but it can get a little confusing without visuals. I'm really looking forward to your videos. Do you have titles and release dates for all the modules. (Just want to get an understanding of the entire program.) Also, have you discussed the costs of the modules? Thanks.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='DannyG' timestamp='1431694391' post='11563112']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431632485' post='11559810']
Many of you have asked about the status of my new Great Shot! golf swing/ballstriking video series, and I am happy to announce that our first of ten Modules in that program will be available for download from our website www.balancepointgolf.com on May 25. The first video is titled Module One A: The Six Laws of Club Motion, and is one hour and 42 minutes of viewing time.

The material covers what the golf club design is all about, and how and why that design has certain built-in qualities that require the "club/instrument" to move in a precise way in order for you to make solid contact with the golf ball, and with enough power and accuracy to play great golf. One of the first things I discovered when I began my teaching career over 22 years ago, was that many students - especially mid to high handicaps - struggle with learning an effective golf swing, because they lack that understanding of how the club is supposed to move, the ideal impact conditions, and how power is created and delivered into the ball. I found that there were six "laws" for effective club motion, and that when those six laws were present in a golf swing (assuming good starting position and aim at Setup), a good shot outcome was guaranteed.

I also discovered that teaching pure body mechanics in a "vacuum", ie absent that understanding of how the club is designed to move, resulted in poor learning outcomes of those all important body mechanics. I found that when students understood that club design supported why I was asking them to move their body part in a precise way, then that piece of mechanical learning happened at a much faster rate, and the learning was permanent, ie it supported dominant habit formation. Knowing the club design laws made it much more likely for them to achieve a "light bulb" moment about how to move their body.

Module One B and Module Two: The Arm Swing Illusion are nearly complete, with a target release date for June 15. Module One B is about some of the basics of body motion, the three pre-swing fundamentals of grip, setup and aim, some basic swing theory, baseline balance and tempo, and other related topics. There is a "body of knowledge" about the golf swing and how to create a golf shot that is sorely lacking in the game of golf in general, and again - especially among mid to high handicaps, and Module One Parts A and B will cover that information. Module Two turned out even better than I expected, and covers the Arm Swing Illusion in depth, along with all of it's many ramifications on other parts of the golf swing.
[/quote]

Jim, I purchased your Great Shot ebook but it can get a little confusing without visuals. I'm really looking forward to your videos. Do you have titles and release dates for all the modules. (Just want to get an understanding of the entire program.) Also, have you discussed the costs of the modules? Thanks.
[/quote]

The whole program will be divided into ten modules, eleven really since we had to split Module One since it was too long for reasonable download time. The basic idea behind the program was to offer the experience of our Great Shot! golf swing/ballstriking school in a "virtual" format for those folks who just cannot make the trip in person to Oregon or Hawaii. At first we thought we would just hire a film crew to tape the entire three day golf school, 22.5 hours of actual instruction (and that does not even include lunch where the group is still talking golf!) but we quickly abandoned that idea for logistical reasons. But the content will be the same.

Module Three will be on the mechanics of the Pivot. Four on the Arms and Triangle. Five on the Wrists and Right Arm. Six through Ten will cover Balance, Rhythm, Tempo, Timing/Sequencing, How to Practice (range and home slow mo mirror work), Flaws and Fixes, Swing Illusions, and the Six Swing Mini-Segments.

Modules will be released for download from our site when completed, likely about one per six weeks throughout this summer and fall. DVD option will also be offered. Our goal is to have the last Module done by December 15 target release date. But it could take longer, so we will see. Weather is a factor filming in Oregon in the Fall and also finding time in my schedule for taping.

Cost per module will vary a bit depending on total viewing time of that module, in the $59.95-$89.95 range. Module One A is $69.95.

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431682077' post='11562608']
[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1431680116' post='11562578']
[quote name='Silky' timestamp='1431677775' post='11562548']
Jim,

I have a strong suspicion that the "flat left wrist" is a major fallacy in golf teaching that spanned decades. I hope you have that covered in the modules. Nevertheless, your comments here will be greatly appreciated.
[/quote]

I think flat left wrist as a general principle is quite right, but like any valid swing concept, if taken to absolute extremes, it can become a problem. It really just means that you want to create a Long Lever from left shoulder, down a straight left arm, through a left wrist that is in that same long line of left arm with the shaft, so that the left arm and shaft are in the same plane. It makes for better contact between ball and clubface and for better transference of power, compared to a long lever that has a "kink" in it at the wrist joint.

Again - this is a Law of Body Motion that I am describing, not the same thing as something that you consciously try to do in the golf swing. If your grip, grip pressure and wrist action during backswing are sound, and then you are pivoting properly on the forward swing, the flat left wrist at impact (or nearly flat, very slightly bent or slightly bowed can also work) is something that just happens.

Timing of your Release pattern also can affect this, too early or too late can create not enough or too much forward shaft lean.
[/quote]

My current thinking is that the wrists should yield to momentum of the club in the backswing and the forces from the Law of Body Motion in the downswing which the club move in different planes. I have difficulty in visualizing the same flat left wrist accommodating the left forearm and the club moving in different planes.

I do understand the concept of the left arm flying wedge or the Long Lever as you described, that is, "from left shoulder, down a straight left arm, through a left wrist that is in that same long line of left arm with the shaft, so that the left arm and shaft are in the same plane". My confusion is that the c0cking and unc0cking of the club also define a plane that does not contain the left shoulder.
[/quote]

Sounds like you need a lesson!

You need to actively c0ck/hinge your wrists during the backswing. The notion of pivot momentum doing it for you is, in my opinion, one of the most destructive in golf, and one reason I ask my Great Shot! new students to read "The Four Magic Moves" to winning golf by Joe Dante. (even though I don't advocate for his grip or backswing method of wrist setting, rather the concept that you need to do it with wrist muscles).

Many body and shaft plans happen in a good golf swing. You need to abandon the notion that everything should move in the same or similar planes. Just cannot work that way. Lots of shifting going on, even a "simple" swing like Billy Horschel or Justin Rose!

One way to release the wrist c0ck angles in the forward swing is entirely (or nearly so) through pivot momentum, called a "passive release", which must be married to a slow to medium pivot thrust speed. Fast pivot thrust speeds require an active wrist c0ck release. Average golfers especially will find the passive release easier to learn and to manage since all you need is Stage One of the two stage booster rocket to be active, ie the Pivot Thrust part. Stage two will then happen automatically.

[Atrayn]

Jim,

I'm glad you mentioned Dante's wrist setting. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on what you don't like. I am assuming you are talking about the backward wrist break? I found this quite enlightening years ago when I was working on my swing and my natural cupping at the top of the swing. I actually found that the pressuring of the right heel pad into base of the left thumb was crucial to me being able to keeping the club on shaft plane.

In recent years I have gone to more of an early wrist set and it took me a while to discover how to do it properly. I find it's more of a blend of right wrist c0ck and the Donte backward wrist break. In reality, for me, its like a mini move with the wrists at the start of the swing that gets the shaft on plane the quickest.

There can be too much vertical wristcock without the backward break IMHO. During this time, I found a video with Paul Kopp working with Elkington on this micro-move. I'll post it here. I'm wondering what your thought are on this?

[url="https://youtu.be/k7dmibSKbyY"]https://youtu.be/k7dmibSKbyY[/url]

[Jim Waldron]

[quote name='Atrayn' timestamp='1431716689' post='11565138']
Jim,

I'm glad you mentioned Dante's wrist setting. I'm wondering if you could elaborate a bit more on what you don't like. I am assuming you are talking about the backward wrist break? I found this quite enlightening years ago when I was working on my swing and my natural cupping at the top of the swing. I actually found that the pressuring of the right heel pad into base of the left thumb was crucial to me being able to keeping the club on shaft plane.

In recent years I have gone to more of an early wrist set and it took me a while to discover how to do it properly. I find it's more of a blend of right wrist c0ck and the Donte backward wrist break. In reality, for me, its like a mini move with the wrists at the start of the swing that gets the shaft on plane the quickest.

There can be too much vertical wristcock without the backward break IMHO. During this time, I found a video with Paul Kopp working with Elkington on this micro-move. I'll post it here. I'm wondering what your thought are on this?

[url="https://youtu.be/k7dmibSKbyY"]https://youtu.be/k7dmibSKbyY[/url]
[/quote]

Not sure about the Kopp video. He mentioned "rotation" but was not clear on what exactly that means. Could mean roll the face open, no? Which I think is not optimal, certainly. I teach a simultaneous slight hinging and c0cking. Hinge angle set enough to flatten left wrist by 2/3 into takeaway and one-half vertical wrist c0ck by end of takeaway. Blend that with the proper arm pushaway and pivot, and your shaft will track back on plane.

Any of those four elements if done too much, not enough or out of sequence will cause the shaft to move off-plane. Getting the blend is the key, and you can do all that in slow motion or half speed in front of a mirror.

Dante employs a very weak conventional grip (palm grip) in left hand and a severe hinge angle that bows the left wrist a ton. Along with no actual intent to c0ck the wrists in the vertical dimension. That moves the shaft way inside and under the plane.