GolfWorld Article / PGA Membership

[mikpga]

Forget the individuals name. He has been attempting to pass the PAT to become a member of the PGA. He has no use of his left arm. The PGA has made some exceptions already, and he has the majority of his 'class' work finished. It is going to come down to passing the PAT. For those of you who have read the article, what are your thoughts and opinions?

 

I personally think he would be a great asset to the PGA of America, but it requires overlooking a long tradition held within the PGA of America.

[RNF]

Having worked with players with disabilities before, I commend him and back him 100% for membership.

[mikpga]

My concern is they won't...

 

I hope I am wrong...

 

Maybe the membership can sign a petition?

[pingplayer72]

I too think he should be granted membership into the PGA. These days, playing has become such a small component of the PGA Golf Professional's job; that if he excels at all of the other aspects he should be granted membership. Heck, there are current PGA Golf Professionals that "have" passed the PAT that currently can not break 90; because they might only play a couple of times a month.

 

He will be a great ambassador for the game of golf and isn't that what it is all about?

[RNF]

Yeah, I've not seen much concern for people with disabilities from the membership.

Having been in the Southwest, Northern Cal, Met, and now the North Texas sections I can say that every section up to the NTPGA has not had any programs designed to help me as an instructor, learn the nuances of teaching people with disabilities the game of golf.

The Texas Scottish Rites Hospital for Children in Dallas has a very good program. I'd highly recommend it for anyone that is interested.

http://www.tsrhc.org/p_community_outreach.cfm

or you can contact Dana Dempsey at the hospital [email protected]

[jdhallissey]

I have read that article and hope he passes. I hope they grant him in. Somebody that has gone through this program and he can't pass the playing part well he has one arm. I would not want to lose somebody in the golf business becuase he has a disablity. The guy may even understand the swing much better and also be an amazing teacher. Yes tradition is tradition but sometimes tradition needs to be broken for cases like this. I back him 100% too. If we need to start a petition I will sign it.

[mikpga]

I will send a message to Brian Whitcomb, and see if I can gather any other information on this...

[packerfan1]

I have not seen the specific article you are referring to but can guess as to the general gist of the argument.

 

Isn't this like the argument against the PGA player who wanted to use a motorized cart on tour because he had leg problems and medically couldn't walk a course? I never understood the arguments against that guy using a cart...if a board of doctors certifies him unfit to walk a course, special exceptions should be made. Caddies carry bags anyhow.

 

Same with a person becoming a PGA pro...let a board of doctors certify the disability (no matter how apparent the disability is) and give the guy a waiver or make an exception. The guy could be a great teacher and also run a course or pro shop well...disability not withstanding.

 

Golf's governing bodies are too 'strict' sometimes for their own good.

[ryanpgm]

I may be in the minority here, but I don't think that he should be granted membership. Don't think I am being insensitive towards people with disabilities, because I am not. Passing the PAT has been a longstanding tradition with in the PGA which is kind of what sets this organization apart from others. Simply and bluntly put, if he was trying out for Georgia Tech as a wide receiver, would people still be upset if he was cut, because his disability prevented him from keeping up with the rest of the team? Again, very sympathetic towards this young mans condition and I hate that his lifelong dream may not become a reality, but I don't think the PGA should let him in.

[mikpga]

So, due to the inability to use his left arm, he offers no valuable services as a member of the PGA?

 

As a member of the PGA, how does our playing ability actually help us perform our day to day jobs?

 

Outside of being a full time instructor, which I am, what role does the PAT play?

 

Fun subject, let's keep hearing the opinions roll in...

[ryanpgm]

He does offer valuable services, which is why he should stay in the business, i.e. working with the First Tee, or Boys and Girls Clubs, or Special Olympics children. Do you think that he may better serve the industry working with other people with disabilities setting an example? I personally do think that he could have a significant impact. There is no reason why he can't be in the golf business, I just don't think that he should be in the PGA unless he can meet all requirements necessary to obtain membership.

[pingplayer72]

Standing behind the "tradition" of the PGA is all of bunch of bs; including the PAT. So, whether some director or officer grants this guy speical membership into the PGA would just be a big pr campaign down the road. He may be granted membership into the PGA; but, he will still be 1 of 150 applying for an assistant pro job.

[smarshal75]

It is questionable whether or not the PGA has the ability to exclude the person based on his disability. The PGA has already set a precedent of providing, albeit with massive apprehension, relief to a disabled golfer....Casey Martin if I recall correctly.

 

Additionally, I am not sure the PGA can exclude a person based on their disability. This person may qualify as a member of protected class under the Americans with Disabilities Act. I don't think private organizations are exempted from compliance with the ADA.

 

All in all, this could become some really bad P.R. for the PGA. Not to mention the potential for litigation...you let this guy pay for, take, and pass all written materials for membership knowing he had a disability, then you disqualify him based on his physical condition. I don't think the court would find that very cool.

[ryanpgm]

The PGA and PGA Tour are completly different entities. The PGA Tour let Casey Martin utilize a golf car because of his disability, not the PGA of America.

[proknows]

We have used a formula for allowing females to play a shorter set of tees, I don't think it would take a genius to figure up a fair yardage for him to take his PAT from. Simply granting someone a membership wreaks of PC PR, and I would insist that my accomplishment not be diminished by a token gift of membership. Figure up the yardage, the score, and let him play for it like all of us.

[mikpga]

I believe they have made modifications for some his PAT attempts already...

 

There have been many examples of modifications for PAT venues over the years, as stated in the article...

 

One gentleman was allowed to play 4 nine hole events over a period of four weeks...

 

I believe the PGA is being as accomodating as possible, without simply waiving the PAT process...

[wildwilly911]

boy can i smell a law suit

[asitlies]

As is evidenced by some other threads here - some CURRENT PGA pro's can't break 80! Does seem a little odd.

 

As for all of the people who are saying it's a long-time tradition - it's only been around since 1973, I believe. I know to some here that seems like a long time, but golf has been around in the US for over 100 years...

[pmas93]

OK, I would love to read this article but I don't have a subscription to Golf World. I guess it is the only one I don't have. Does anyone have a link to the article on the web. I tried their website but couldn't find anything. Or anyone have a copy they would share with me.

I would love to know how close he is to the target score on the PAT.

[asitlies]

He's not that close - plays right handed only... Guess his BEST round is 79. His name is Ryan Ely. Says he typically hits driver 225 - handicap has been as low as 15. Graduated PGM program in 1994. Tried PAt in 2000, I think 6100 yard Vanderbilt CC in Naples, FL - 6100 yards - target score was 153 for 36 holes, shot 101 in first round, 2nd round rained out after 9...

 

Only 20% of the applicants for the apprentice program are successful at passing the PAT...

 

just a quick summary...

 

 

I guess the slippery slope the PGA is on is becasue then other guys may say, "Hey, I've got adult-ADD." or warts, or something less debilitating (was going to type "trivial", but I don't meant that these things are trivial, but in the scope of the discussion - they would seem trivial...)

[glcoach]

The PGA should set up a course where he plays at 60% of the yardage and go from there. Meaning he should tee it up from around 4000 yards, for a guy with one arm that would seem fair.

 

You can make legit arguments on both sides of the coin. But a significantly shorter course would make it fair and he would still have to hole the putts to make it just like everyone else.

 

As previously mentioned only 20% make it through anyway. Set up a course that accommodates his disability and go from there. I know I would be pulling for him.

[mikpga]

I suppose this would be a bad analogy...

 

 

 

Kind of like defining marriage, where do we stop and draw the line?

 

 

 

I hate to see Ryan not get his membership, he would be a great asset...

[MCDavis]

In this week's GW there is a letter from a PGA Pro about this issue. I agree with the letter and do not think he should be given membership if he can't pass ALL of the requirements. There's plenty he can do (and already does) in golf without being a PGA Pro/member.

 

I look at a PGA Pro first and foremost as a player...someone who is going to shoot low scores almost every time he plays, and certainly every time he plays his home course. That's what instills confidence in me to go to that individual for advice/lessons about my game. From my understanding (and please correct me if I'm wrong), that's the purpose of the PAT test.

 

And yes, 79 is a good score and it is better than my best...but that's the best he can do, apparently. IMHO, it doesn't warrant PGA membership.

 

None of that is meant rude towards him or his disability.

 

There's another article about the LPGA and how they are bending so many rules to let people into tournaments that they are starting to look bad. It ends with a good statement (that I can't remember) about the PGA Tour not doing this and how much better they look for it. I think this same idea applies to the PGA.

 

Just my .02. If anyone can find the original article and the two I referenced, it'd be great to put links here so all could read.

[mikpga]

Thanks for the input McDavis...I will look at the article today at work, and let you know...

 

 

 

I understand your point of view, and I am divided on this topic...

[ryanpgm]

Not that this young man would do it, but could he sue under the ADA even though the PGA is a "members only" organization?

[mikpga]

My imression from the article, he has no intention of taking legal action...

 

 

 

But in today's society, one never knows...

[RNF]

There's another article about the LPGA and how they are bending so many rules to let people into tournaments that they are starting to look bad. It ends with a good statement (that I can't remember) about the PGA Tour not doing this and how much better they look for it. I think this same idea applies to the PGA.

 

Just my .02. If anyone can find the original article and the two I referenced, it'd be great to put links here so all could read.

 

The PGA Tour allows Michelle Wie in to events. It hasn't looked good by doing that....unless you only look at TV ratings.

[smarshal75]

What becomes of the golf professional, who say, loses a leg or an arm in a motorcycle accident? Is he stripped of his membership because he can no longer play the game at the level expected of, and required to be, a member of the PGA? What does the PGA tell a veteran who before he lost a limb was a scratch golfer and had completed the PGA course work, but hadn't taken his PAT?

 

Ely may have cause to sue the PGA even though it is a private membership organization. First, you can always sue under ADA to challenge an organization that claims it is exempt. In my opinion, I think the PGA is on shakey ground since it is an organization serving the primary function of providing training and certifications for EMPLOYMENT in the golf industry. If the PGA is not exempt from ADA, the next question becomes...is the ability to play to a arbitrarily set score necessary to demonstrate the ability to perform the ESSENTIAL functions of the day to day work activities of a golf professional?

 

While Ely himself may not file suit, an entity like the ACLU could file one, or even the federal government if a complaint is made to Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

 

I would personally be embarrassed to be affiliated with an organization that bars an otherwise qualified individual from membership because the person has a significant life altering physical disability that prevents them from passing a test of little relevance to the major day-to-day work activites.

 

I have seen quite a few comments about the PGA growing the game of golf. In my mind, the PGA isn't growing the game of golf when it discriminate against a certain class of people. The PGA has a real elitist stigma it needs to overcome.

[MCDavis]

There's another article about the LPGA and how they are bending so many rules to let people into tournaments that they are starting to look bad. It ends with a good statement (that I can't remember) about the PGA Tour not doing this and how much better they look for it. I think this same idea applies to the PGA.

 

Just my .02. If anyone can find the original article and the two I referenced, it'd be great to put links here so all could read.

 

The PGA Tour allows Michelle Wie in to events. It hasn't looked good by doing that....unless you only look at TV ratings.

 

I agree.

[MCDavis]

What becomes of the golf professional, who say, loses a leg or an arm in a motorcycle accident? Is he stripped of his membership because he can no longer play the game at the level expected of, and required to be, a member of the PGA? What does the PGA tell a veteran who before he lost a limb was a scratch golfer and had completed the PGA course work, but hadn't taken his PAT?

 

Ely may have cause to sue the PGA even though it is a private membership organization. First, you can always sue under ADA to challenge an organization that claims it is exempt. In my opinion, I think the PGA is on shakey ground since it is an organization serving the primary function of providing training and certifications for EMPLOYMENT in the golf industry. If the PGA is not exempt from ADA, the next question becomes...is the ability to play to a arbitrarily set score necessary to demonstrate the ability to perform the ESSENTIAL functions of the day to day work activities of a golf professional?

 

While Ely himself may not file suit, an entity like the ACLU could file one, or even the federal government if a complaint is made to Equal Employment Opportunity Commission.

 

I would personally be embarrassed to be affiliated with an organization that bars an otherwise qualified individual from membership because the person has a significant life altering physical disability that prevents them from passing a test of little relevance to the major day-to-day work activites.

 

I have seen quite a few comments about the PGA growing the game of golf. In my mind, the PGA isn't growing the game of golf when it discriminate against a certain class of people. The PGA has a real elitist stigma it needs to overcome.

 

First off, the issue isn't KEEPING PGA membership, it's about getting it. No one should lose that membership due to accidents. They've already earned it.

 

I don't see this as the PGA excluding anyone, I see it as them enforcing the rules that are in place at this time. Should those rules be amended? Possibly. Should they start bending them to be politically correct? Not in my opinion. I think they are doing the right thing by upholding the rules that are in place.

 

As far as all the comments about legal action...that's one of the biggest problems this country has today. You don't want to play by the rules, so you sue somebody. You drag their name through the mud, make them look as bad as possible, and try to force their hand. There are other ways to do things. Not sure what all Ryan has tried, but I respect him for NOT turning it ugly.

 

If they bend the rules for him, what's to stop me from saying "Hey, I aced every part of your requirements except the PAT. I know I shoot 110 from the ladies tees, but if you're going to allow Ryan in, why can't you allow me in? I think I'll get a lawyer, call the EEOC, call the newspapers, have some press conferences, and give you more bad publicity. That's how I'll become a PGA Pro!"

 

I would not oppose the rules being changed, but I am against them being bent.

 

smarshall, none of this is intended as rude or as a personal attack on you. It's just my .02. ;)