Bradley Hughes, Impact, the truth about your swing.

[Hoganstriker]

The question I have is can anyone match those alignments? Obviously it's not athleticism it's technique. Last night I put up lee T. Current swing he's open like that. I just see its not speed of rotation causing it its something else.
Also I have to echo EJ. The greats are shall owing the club as the ss are steepening. Different dynamics.

[oikos1]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1386267524' post='8253267']
[b]The question I have is can anyone match those alignments?[/b] Obviously it's not athleticism it's technique. Last night I put up lee T. Current swing he's open like that. I just see its not speed of rotation causing it its something else.
Also I have to echo EJ. The greats are shall owing the club as the ss are steepening. Different dynamics.
[/quote]

How about this cat?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uelklRZ9deU

[tembolo1284]

This is good stuff.

[Hoganstriker]

Well he's better than anybody round here. That right knee like that at impact is a big difference. But again big hitter same basic technique. The arm sling is after the ball is gone there.
My point is that the alignments tell about the intent.
I can swing and feel like I did that but if I look on video it's no no no not close even. So feel is not real as any golfer knows.
So I think the positions show what's happened and if the intent is similar.

[dairic]

[quote name='nfbandon' timestamp='1386263615' post='8252937']
I stand by my statement that that JE swing was "damn impressive." I will call him and ask him if it was a drill, but regardless, SS is not a departure from ABS but rather an extension of what we already seek to do for those with the ability to achieve it. I have explained several times what the "opposing forces" are and why we believe in them. As far as Hogan, yes before I entered ABS I sought a Hogan aesthetic, but now I seek the dynamics of the greats, including Hogan. The dynamics of the greats are not measured by what your right elbow looks like or how open your hips are at impact. But aesthetically, I look more like Hogan than I did before ABS, but that doesn't matter to me. The notion that someone 6'4" should seek to "look" like Hogan is ridiculous, and those that don't take build and eye dominance into account when comparing swings are lost in aesthetics. What the club is doing from hip to hip is all that matters. And on that score, JE looks great compared to the greats. I also take issue with the notion that many of the greats didn't go from flat to on plane hip to hip. I submit the opposite, most did, as the pics posted above demonstrate. What is required to do that is learning how to use your forearms preimpact. To say that JE pivot stalls as someone did is mistaken. JE may not show two cheeks at impact, [b]but I submit that most who do are going to be stall flippers. The greats did not exhaust their hips at impact.[/b] They had pivot left in the tank. You see alot of so called "rotational" swings today, where the hips are spent before impact and the arms dump. We can argue all day long about this, but I want to be clear that I don't accept what some put out as "fact" regarding what the greats did. I see it differently.
[/quote]

The greats showed two cheaks. That's why their swings were so sexy.

If Hoganstiker feels generous he can repost the pics from yesterday which showed their impact butts in all their glory.

[tembolo1284]

Did someone mention butt?

[dairic]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1386281924' post='8254655']
Well he's better than anybody round here. That right knee like that at impact is a big difference. But again big hitter same basic technique. The arm sling is after the ball is gone there.
My point is that the alignments tell about the intent.
I can swing and feel like I did that but if I look on video it's no no no not close even. So feel is not real as any golfer knows.
So I think the positions show what's happened and if the intent is similar.
[/quote]

Learn feel from mechanics, and not mechanics from feel.

[Hoganstriker]

Maybe I will get those up tonight...that sexy look IMO does not happen for any reason except dynamics. You can't say the dynamics are the same without that rotation/extension element its the engine we are talking about not a set of shiny wheels. The pics show the truth about it.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386263421' post='8252905']
[attachment=1974023:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]

This hack is way under plane coming into the ball. Surely he hit a chuck skud out to the right just like Erickson does on every shot.

[attachment=1974025:george88.jpg]

This hack would have been a lot better if his hips and shoulders were wide open at impact and we could see both those butt cheeks. I'm sure he comtemplated a day he could get advice from internet forum posters some day in the future and fix that horrible bent left knee at impact. Bryon could have used a fix up also.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386263421' post='8252905']
[attachment=1974023:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]

This hack is way under plane coming into the ball. Surely he hit a chuck skud out to the right just like Erickson does on every shot.

[attachment=1974025:george88.jpg]

This hack would have been a lot better if his hips and shoulders were wide open at impact and we could see both those butt cheeks. I'm sure he comtemplated a day he could get advice from internet forum posters some day in the future and fix that horrible bent left knee at impact. Bryon could have used a fix up also.
[/quote]

The sequence of Knudson , the camera angle is way way right of him , even so in the second pic ( not quite at p5 yet) his left arm is in maybe 30 deg to his stance line , so he's not your best example . Player on the other hand would be considered a cf type model . Some of the issues you can look at to determine the type of swing are type of shoulder turn I.e flat tends to shift path right v rotated ( steeper) to the left , hand path and left arm position .
And I do believe it was Leadbetter that poisoned seve and Mac took him out to the desert and buried that swing !

Not sure why that other pic is named hogan cause it sure doesn't look like him

[rileyj]

I was in ABS for a long time. I eventually moved away but JE and Brad were nothing but classy in their interaction with me and offered a lot in addition to what I payed for the modules. I have absolutely no regrets although I determined the full package wasn't gonna be the path to my best golf. For some it very well might be.

Chiming in here because I think some things about ABS are getting mischaracterized. It's true that there is no one swing model i.e. Hogan. If any part of it should be modeled after hogan it's the forearm/hand action in transition. Also the resistance to fully uncocking the wrists.

The transition is modeled more after Hogan/Player

The leg work is modeled more after Snead.

The foot work is modeld more after Norman

The post-impact torso work is modeled more after Senior

The post-impact arm work is modeled more after Hogan.

The basckswing is left open based on the indivuduals spacial awareness, feel, and preference.

Within these "intentions" the only imperative is that the clubs operates on the shaft plane from around hip high to hip high with a feeling of acceleration.

The degree to which each player resembles these models is going to vary with the individuals' skills, preference, posture, strength, and desire. If you don't want to go full on Peter Senior shoulders in the follow through then you don't have to. John goes more extreme than Brad or Grady but they all seem the find the shaft plane or close to it.

These are guides and I'm sure some will argue that these components will not assemble together effectively. I will agree that it is unique in many ways but that fact that at least one person (JE) can make the extremes work out nicely is proof that it is not an "incompatible" model. You may argue that it requires "unnatural" moves or "compensations" but that is part of the intent because when you are working the club from challenging positions it requries muscular effort that, when engrained, can give the golfer a form of feedback.

Personally, I think ABS is best suited to the golfer who has many of the pieces of a good golf swing in place and is looking to "firm things up" and remove some slack from an oily swing. This is what seems to have happened with Grady and Brad. They already had good swings and ABS served them well to tighten things up. Most of the beginners I personally have seen have not improved as much with ABS. That doens't mean there aren't beginners who haven't benefitted greatly but I haven't seen them. I'm sure Bradley and John would say otherwise and they are the ones who witness it firsthand.

[dairic]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386282319' post='8254709']
Did someone mention butt?
[/quote]

That move is called Super Slut-ing. The drills are just amazing and so extreme. It's all about pressure and feel.

[superveryscratch]

This is a great thread. Drama, crying, and humor...

I 2nd eight's points.

Maybe a schooling on "bending planes" and what a "plane" is are in order for bigbomberboy.

SVS

[virtuoso]

Who is superveryscratch? Superscratch reincarnated? And who was superscratch before? I'm starting to have trouble keeping track of everyone.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386263421' post='8252905']
[attachment=1974023:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]

This hack is way under plane coming into the ball. Surely he hit a chuck skud out to the right just like Erickson does on every shot.

[attachment=1974025:george88.jpg]

This hack would have been a lot better if his hips and shoulders were wide open at impact and we could see both those butt cheeks. I'm sure he comtemplated a day he could get advice from internet forum posters some day in the future and fix that horrible bent left knee at impact. Bryon could have used a fix up also.
[/quote]

Who is the guy on top?

[bph7]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1386289152' post='8255321']
Who is superveryscratch? Superscratch reincarnated? And who was superscratch before? I'm starting to have trouble keeping track of everyone.
[/quote]

Remember, there is both a superscratch and a veryscratch (now banned I believe). Wonder who this "SVS" fella could possibly be?

[robbohank]

I spent a couple of years in the ABS program and it was a really good experience. John and Bradley both are class acts and the ABS forum is quite good. Although I played some college level golf I didn't take an official lesson until several years after I graduated and that was with Hank Haney. I worked with some of his instructors for a few years and sort of branched out from there. I seem to be on a "2 year cycle" when it comes to lessons and methods...... if I feel like I've stagnated after 730 days of concerted effort, I tend to move on.

These are probably the last vids of my swing after working ABS for about 2 years:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaHkiQMoBaw&feature=player_detailpage"]https://www.youtube....ayer_detailpage[/url]


[url="https://www.youtube....e&v=PCKGOhm5kzw"]https://www.youtube....e&v=PCKGOhm5kzw[/url]

I'm in lockstep with many of John's opinions wrt the state of the game. We hold a couple of "persimmon/blades/balata" events here and all the guys who participate absolutely LOVE IT! I can't see any downside to at least practicing with the older gear. Even with the newer stuff I have to get the irons flattened several degrees.

Lots of good stuff in ABS but with the flatter and older gear I felt like I was getting shorter and it was almost impossible to turn the ball over, so the short right miss was too prevalent. Granted I'm getting older (50++) so it might be tougher for a guy like me to maintain the strength required to max out the ABS benefits but in general it's the real deal.

Brad (or John) don't need my support or defense but I wanted to add another (hopefully relavent) input to a very interesting thread.

[oikos1]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1386284786' post='8254943']
I was in ABS for a long time. I eventually moved away but JE and Brad were nothing but classy in their interaction with me and offered a lot in addition to what I payed for the modules. I have absolutely no regrets although I determined the full package wasn't gonna be the path to my best golf. For some it very well might be.

Chiming in here because I think some things about ABS are getting mischaracterized. It's true that there is no one swing model i.e. Hogan. If any part of it should be modeled after hogan it's the forearm/hand action in transition. Also the resistance to fully uncocking the wrists.

The transition is modeled more after Hogan/Player

The leg work is modeled more after Snead.

The foot work is modeld more after Norman

The post-impact torso work is modeled more after Senior

The post-impact arm work is modeled more after Hogan.

The basckswing is left open based on the indivuduals spacial awareness, feel, and preference.

Within these "intentions" the only imperative is that the clubs operates on the shaft plane from around hip high to hip high with a feeling of acceleration.

The degree to which each player resembles these models is going to vary with the individuals' skills, preference, posture, strength, and desire. If you don't want to go full on Peter Senior shoulders in the follow through then you don't have to. John goes more extreme than Brad or Grady but they all seem the find the shaft plane or close to it.

These are guides and I'm sure some will argue that these components will not assemble together effectively. I will agree that it is unique in many ways but that fact that at least one person (JE) can make the extremes work out nicely is proof that it is not an "incompatible" model. You may argue that it requires "unnatural" moves or "compensations" but that is part of the intent because when you are working the club from challenging positions it requries muscular effort that, when engrained, can give the golfer a form of feedback.

Personally, [b]I think ABS is best suited to the golfer who has many of the pieces of a good golf swing in place and is looking to "firm things up" and remove some slack from an oily swing. [/b] This is what seems to have happened with Grady and Brad. They already had good swings and ABS served them well to tighten things up. [b]Most of the beginners I personally have seen have not improved as much with ABS.[/b] That doens't mean there aren't beginners who haven't benefitted greatly but I haven't seen them. I'm sure Bradley and John would say otherwise and they are the ones who witness it firsthand.
[/quote]

Very insightful, rileyj. Thank you. And the bold confirms my perception of ABS as well. Makes sense if it's going to be called "Advanced Ball Striking".

[tembolo1284]

thanks for the post riley.

[ej002]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386283933' post='8254873']
Not sure why that other pic is named hogan cause it sure doesn't look like him
[/quote]

I thought the same thing. Mostly b/c the lower body is out of sorts, also the hat is wrong.

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1386286466' post='8255095']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386282319' post='8254709']
Did someone mention butt?
[/quote]

That move is called Super Slut-ing. The drills are just amazing and so extreme. It's all about pressure and feel.
[/quote]

sure its not "Super Very Slut-ing?"

[MK7Golf21]

[quote name='Hstead' timestamp='1386256841' post='8252323']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1386255814' post='8252245']
Hstead - you are probably correct, but I am not sure why it took 10 pages for them to say those videos were "drill" swings or whatever, when 8 asked if it was joke way back then, then you asked if it was a drill or a real swing. Grady defended it call it damn impressive. A JE iron swing came up and someone said the difference was the iron swing was before he developed SS. So I honestly don't know what to believe.

BTW -[size=4] I agree 100% with you on the "real swing" Brad posted. Was that swing pre or post SS? [/size]

But then it begs the question - if that slot and go video is a drill, then what the hell is "superslotting"? Just a drill itself or an actual swing component? B/c like you said, the "real swing" looks pretty orthodox. Just seems like a simple explanation of all this could have been had without all this debate, rather than them being defensive.
[/quote]

We seem to agree here. I have been confused too. I am believing it is just a drill since that is what Brad said and looking at Brads swing, which I have found, he is dead on plane to me. I think he even has a more upright plane like myself because we are built similar. No way Brad is going to be as flat as Sergio coming down because they are built differently. Personally, I am much better off learning how Brad swings it than Hogan or Sergio since I am not built anything like them.
[/quote]

yea and thats the confusing part, with myself. I can get myself to swing flat and in those positions with little practice so they wouldnt really be drills for me. It doesnt take me really exaggerating it slow to get a milimeter of change, My swing will turn into all those exagerated moves. Needs to be more clear

[Bigbomberboy]

[attachment=1974375:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]


Unfortunately it's Hogan. So you have some explaining to do.

[Hoganstriker]

Doing some ABS research and its pivot driven hitting is what they call that. TGM defines hitting as right arm thrust. But it seems from reading that ABS tries to hold the right arm in tight? I am curious if thats right. Is that the correct interpretation? That in ABS the hit is limited to a hand slap type hit and right arm extension is frowned upon?
So if thats true how can it be hitting if the right arm is not used except to hold in?
And if thats all true how come JE lets the right elbow away through the zone?
So many questions I know. I have decided not to repost the pics anyone who cares and looks carefully can see how much the pivot moves in JE's swing through the ball and how different that looks.

[Bigbomberboy]

[quote]
yea and thats the confusing part, with myself. I can get myself to swing flat and in those positions with little practice so they wouldnt really be drills for me. It doesnt take me really exaggerating it slow to get a milimeter of change, My swing will turn into all those exagerated moves. Needs to be more clear
[/quote]

Another ABS misnomer. ABS does not teach students to swing in slow motion because when doing so, the real forces of the golf swing don't exist. ABS is not about positions either. Things are always moving, that is why we use a bag or similar device to train with so things can be moving and in the correct speeds for the action that is required.

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294033' post='8255757']
[attachment=1974375:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]


Unfortunately it's Hogan. So you have some explaining to do.
[/quote]

Dude that camera is low and right. if you think that the position of that club in that freeze frame at that angle tells you squat about plane or even what direction the clubhead is going you're high. No one trying to make a point who knows anything would use such a poor angle to illustrate anything period.

[Hoganstriker]

If Hogan's underplane show it from a proper dtl or knock it off.
Also when I am supersluting I find if it doesn't look good I just put on the beer goggles and change the camera angles and everything feels great to me again and I feel much better about it.

[Bigbomberboy]

ABS is not TGM. Forget about any comparisons. Mac O is doing something different also. John and Mac had roots in TGM decades ago. That is about all one can really compare.

In ABS, the hit is with the body rotation and the forearm rotation and it really is a hit. The wrists stay cocked and the right arm does not fly off the body.
I don't see John doing that at all. Try swinging a heavy one pound flat wooden driver and keep the right arm in while coming in on what we call the 4:30 line. Harder than it looks I can tell you.

[Hoganstriker]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294835' post='8255827']
ABS is not TGM. Forget about any comparisons. Mac O is doing something different also. John and Mac had roots in TGM decades ago. That is about all one can really compare.

In ABS, the hit is with the body rotation and the forearm rotation and it really is a hit. The wrists stay cocked and the right arm does not fly off the body.
I don't see John doing that at all. Try swinging a heavy one pound flat wooden driver and keep the right arm in while coming in on what we call the 4:30 line. Harder than it looks I can tell you.
[/quote]

Can any other ABS person concur with this? Right arm thrust out the window besides rotation of the forearm?

[Bigbomberboy]

[attachment=1974425:hogan.jpg]

Please then explain away why Hogan is showing this in the Coleman video. The floor is yours.

[virtuoso]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294033' post='8255757']
[attachment=1974375:Hogan_rt_pocket.jpg]


Unfortunately it's Hogan. So you have some explaining to do.
[/quote]

Not Hogan.

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386295205' post='8255861']
[attachment=1974425:hogan.jpg]

Please then explain away why Hogan is showing this in the Coleman video. The floor is yours.
[/quote]

Isn't that his slow-mo swing? Isn't he also 75 or so in that video?

Give us footage of him in 48-49 when he was the man!