Bradley Hughes, Impact, the truth about your swing.

[Hoganstriker]

HMMM I read Five Lessons well and I read what was said about the motion of the right arm. There was not one thing in it about not using it. Do you guys really try to hold it in?
That makes no sense to me. Hogan talked about sequences also and if you're just holding it in thats just weird to me. I can't understand any reason to totally eliminate a major power source.
If you read what he wrote about it...I don't see your point...What your saying is nonsensical. Have you read 5L?

[Hoganstriker]

Knees hips shoulders arms hands...Why skip or reverse the arms part?
Really why?
Obviously I don't get anything about ABS.
The floor is yours.

[rileyj]

[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1386295914' post='8255935']
Knees hips shoulders arms hands...Why skip or reverse the arms part?
Really why?
Obviously I don't get anything about ABS.
The floor is yours.
[/quote]

In general the idea is that through the zone pivot and wrists are the main drivers of the swing. In rough TGM terms you could think of it as pivot and PA#3 being the primary power sources although there is no hard and fast rule that says you can't use right arm. ABS advises awareness that excessive right arm thrust can lead to excessive clubface rotation and a swing that works more out the right field whereas ABS wants you to basically swing "left" or keep baseline straight through the hitting area.

Some good golfers use a lot of right arm and some don't. Most ABS guys will be towards the "less" end of the spectrum. Is that really that crazy? When does this guy start right arm thrusting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg

[ej002]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386295205' post='8255861']
[attachment=1974425:hogan.jpg]

Please then explain away why Hogan is showing this in the Coleman video. The floor is yours.
[/quote]

Dude - still a crappy angle just higher up and his left arm is still in a better position.

[ej002]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1386297305' post='8256105']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1386295914' post='8255935']
Knees hips shoulders arms hands...Why skip or reverse the arms part?
Really why?
Obviously I don't get anything about ABS.
The floor is yours.
[/quote]

In general the idea is that through the zone pivot and wrists are the main drivers of the swing. In rough TGM terms you could think of it as pivot and PA#3 being the primary power sources although there is no hard and fast rule that says you can't use right arm. ABS advises awareness that excessive right arm thrust can lead to excessive clubface rotation and a swing that works more out the right field whereas ABS wants you to basically swing "left" or keep baseline straight through the hitting area.

Some good golfers use a lot of right arm and some don't. Most ABS guys will be towards the "less" end of the spectrum. Is that really that crazy? When does this guy start right arm thrusting?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg
[/quote]

Okay theory sounds ok - but why the slot and go video - superveryslutting drill - JE right arm gets straight 2 feet before the ball? The attempt to swing left or online contradicts the SS swing - cuz in reality it's way in to out???

[oikos1]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1386297305' post='8256105']
[quote name='Hoganstriker' timestamp='1386295914' post='8255935']
Knees hips shoulders arms hands...Why skip or reverse the arms part?
Really why?
Obviously I don't get anything about ABS.
The floor is yours.
[/quote]

In general the idea is that through the zone pivot and wrists are the main drivers of the swing. In rough TGM terms you could think of it as pivot and PA#3 being the primary power sources although there is no hard and fast rule that says you can't use right arm. ABS advises awareness that excessive right arm thrust can lead to excessive clubface rotation and a swing that works more out the right field whereas ABS wants you to basically swing "left" or keep baseline straight through the hitting area.

Some good golfers use a lot of right arm and some don't. Most ABS guys will be towards the "less" end of the spectrum. Is that really that crazy? When does this guy start right arm thrusting?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G4DCZuAj5Mg[/media]
[/quote]

[b]"When does this guy start right arm thrusting?"[/b]

Before he even starts his swing. Hogan wasn't like anyone else. Superhuman, really. Look at what he did after getting smashed up by a bus. rileyj gave some examples of other great strikers that ABS aspires to. Here's Brad reviewing Player. He specifically says "right elbow onto the right side...this allows him to turn his body through and not throw his arms and hands off down the line".

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-o_cMVg4uEg

[Hoganstriker]

[b][color=#282828]In general the idea is that through the zone pivot and wrists are the main drivers of the swing[/color][/b]
[color=#282828]Thats your words. Thats not Hogan-or anyone who is using it all in their swing. It's crazy not to use your whole body. It might be tough to do and it might not look like what it is but it's what the greats did-Hogan was one of if not the best.[/color]
[color=#282828]The right arm action is just as he described in 5L. Theres a reason his elbow led like that IMO. [/color]
[attachment=1974523:underhander.jpg]

[rileyj]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1386298318' post='8256215']


Okay theory sounds ok - but why the slot and go video - superveryslutting drill - JE right arm gets straight 2 feet before the ball? The attempt to swing left or online contradicts the SS swing - cuz in reality it's way in to out???
[/quote]

I don't know. I didn't get into the superslotting variation... it knew it wasn't for me. I suspect it's a combination of 2 things: John's preference for axis tilt which is basically "bow to the 4:30 line" (think Curtis Strange type pivot when he was winning us opens)...combine that with an extreme forarm rotation through transition and I guess you get something that looks like superslotting.

You have to realize that John, even in his late 40's, is ridiculously flexible. I think this allows/causes him to get into some positions that look extreme. Emphasizing again: the superslotting thing is not required.

[chrisgilly09]

It doesn't 'thrust' per se, he's in pitch elbow for an awful long time so he would have nothing to thrust against/with. But you best believe he used his arms/hands to help square the face alongside dorsiflexing that L wrist post impact

[nfbandon]

Okay I talked to John briefly today, and the swing is an exaggeration of dropping the club behind and adding knee flex yet being able to deliver the club square to the ball. The right arm doesn't straighten before impact. In fact it is still bent a couple of feet past impact in the set of stills I posted. The elbow does come off the right hip, but with John's height, the additional knee flex, the exaggerated slotting and being on the deck and not having the ground to help resist the outward pull all contribute to that. Not to mention the fact that this particular driver is 15 oz.

[rileyj]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1386299391' post='8256325']
It doesn't 'thrust' per se, he's in pitch elbow for an awful long time so he would have nothing to thrust against/with. But you best believe he used his arms/hands to help square the face alongside dorsiflexing that L wrist post impact
[/quote]

Exactly. More forearms, less triceps.

[robbohank]

[quote name='robbohank' timestamp='1386290314' post='8255417']
I spent a couple of years in the ABS program and it was a really good experience. John and Bradley both are class acts and the ABS forum is quite good. Although I played some college level golf I didn't take an official lesson until several years after I graduated and that was with Hank Haney. I worked with some of his instructors for a few years and sort of branched out from there. I seem to be on a "2 year cycle" when it comes to lessons and methods...... if I feel like I've stagnated after 730 days of concerted effort, I tend to move on.

These are probably the last vids of my swing after working ABS for about 2 years:

[url="https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UaHkiQMoBaw&feature=player_detailpage"]https://www.youtube....ayer_detailpage[/url]


[url="https://www.youtube....e&v=PCKGOhm5kzw"]https://www.youtube....e&v=PCKGOhm5kzw[/url]

I'm in lockstep with many of John's opinions wrt the state of the game. We hold a couple of "persimmon/blades/balata" events here and all the guys who participate absolutely LOVE IT! I can't see any downside to at least practicing with the older gear. Even with the newer stuff I have to get the irons flattened several degrees.

Lots of good stuff in ABS but with the flatter and older gear I felt like I was getting shorter and it was almost impossible to turn the ball over, so the short right miss was too prevalent. Granted I'm getting older (50++) so it might be tougher for a guy like me to maintain the strength required to max out the ABS benefits but in general it's the real deal.

Brad (or John) don't need my support or defense but I wanted to add another (hopefully relavent) input to a very interesting thread.
[/quote]

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCKGOhm5kzw&feature=player_detailpage"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PCKGOhm5kzw&feature=player_detailpage[/url]

[superveryscratch]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1386299391' post='8256325']
It doesn't 'thrust' per se, he's in pitch elbow for an awful long time so he would have nothing to thrust against/with. But you best believe he used his arms/hands to help square the face alongside dorsiflexing that L wrist post impact
[/quote]

I always wonder why the real gurus...errr...gems elicit silence. Not even a huh?!

SVS (Edit: not superveryslutting)

[superveryscratch]

[quote name='rileyj' timestamp='1386300226' post='8256413']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1386299391' post='8256325']
It doesn't 'thrust' per se, he's in pitch elbow for an awful long time so he would have nothing to thrust against/with. But you best believe he used his arms/hands to help square the face alongside dorsiflexing that L wrist post impact
[/quote]

Exactly. More forearms, less triceps.
[/quote]

I agree, in fact I believe no right triceps at all, it's all turn. Maybe right pec, like doing pec curls.

But what perplexes me at the moment is Schlee and Tschetter (both Hogan regular students) both said in writing to use the right arm. And Schlee describes it as right arm thrust (triceps usage) with right wrist kept bent (intent) even thru impact, though in reality you lose a lot of bend. Tschetter said almost the same thing and, unlike Schlee, even expressly said that's what Hogan told her. Dammit I can't do this. Does any player here, if any, have tried this? Feedback?

SVS

[chrisgilly09]

[quote name='superveryscratch' timestamp='1386303291' post='8256661']
[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1386299391' post='8256325']
It doesn't 'thrust' per se, he's in pitch elbow for an awful long time so he would have nothing to thrust against/with. But you best believe he used his arms/hands to help square the face alongside dorsiflexing that L wrist post impact
[/quote]

I always wonder why the real gurus...errr...gems elicit silence. Not even a huh?!

SVS (Edit: not superveryslutting)
[/quote]

You and I have known his impact for a very long time. It's 1-5 that's the meat of it and sets everything up

[eightiron]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294835' post='8255827']
ABS is not TGM. Forget about any comparisons. Mac O is doing something different also. John and Mac had roots in TGM decades ago. That is about all one can really compare.

In ABS, the hit is with the body rotation and the forearm rotation and it really is a hit. The wrists stay cocked and the right arm does not fly off the body.
I don't see John doing that at all. Try swinging a heavy one pound flat wooden driver and keep the right arm in while coming in on what we call the 4:30 line. Harder than it looks I can tell you.
[/quote]

[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294835' post='8255827']
ABS is not TGM. Forget about any comparisons. Mac O is doing something different also. John and Mac had roots in TGM decades ago. That is about all one can really compare.

In ABS, the hit is with the body rotation and the forearm rotation and it really is a hit. The wrists stay cocked and the right arm does not fly off the body.
I don't see John doing that at all. Try swinging a heavy one pound flat wooden driver and keep the right arm in while coming in on what we call the 4:30 line. Harder than it looks I can tell you.
[/quote]

You are correct , ABS definition of hitting is nothing to do with TGM NEITHER is ABS definition of swinging ! You are also correct in that Mac O Is doing something entirely different than the information Erikson stole off him approximately 25 years ago . He buried that out in the desert as well!

[oikos1]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386342214' post='8257937']
[quote name='Bigbomberboy' timestamp='1386294835' post='8255827']
ABS is not TGM. Forget about any comparisons. Mac O is doing something different also. John and Mac had roots in TGM decades ago. That is about all one can really compare.

In ABS, the hit is with the body rotation and the forearm rotation and it really is a hit. The wrists stay cocked and the right arm does not fly off the body.
I don't see John doing that at all. Try swinging a heavy one pound flat wooden driver and keep the right arm in while coming in on what we call the 4:30 line. Harder than it looks I can tell you.
[/quote]

You are correct , ABS definition of hitting is nothing to do with TGM NEITHER is ABS definition of swinging ! You are also correct in that Mac O I'd doing something entirely different than the information Erikson stole off him approximately 25 years ago . He buried that out in the desert as well!
[/quote]

Just out of curiosity, did Mac O "steal" any of his info from anybody or is he all "original"?

[eightiron]

No he didn't knock stuff off out of people's hotel rooms! Hey Oikos how come this is the only thread you have ever posted in although you have been a member for well over 2 years ? Are you a plant? Or a double agent?

[oikos1]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386343940' post='8258133']
No he didn't knock stuff off out of people's hotel rooms! Hey Oikos how come this is the only thread you have ever posted in although you have been a member for well over 2 years ? Are you a plant? Or a double agent?
[/quote]

No, but I do enjoy the paranoia that runs rampant in these forums. Personally, I think the most enjoyable format would be if no one knew who anyone was, no pedigrees to get in the way of open minded thinking. That is the advantage to the internet that we aren't taking full of advantage of, although I'm trying.

As for JE and Mac, it's one thing to challenge/question/debunk theories, it's entirely different to make accusations of stealing. At what point is an individual allowed to take the information they have acquired from their life experiences and make it their own? After all, the point of education is the sharing of information.

[nfbandon]

You are also correct in that Mac O Is doing something entirely different than the information Erikson stole off him approximately 25 years ago . He buried that out in the desert as well! .

JE has considerable respect for Mac. He told me Mac and Moe were the best range strikers he saw while he was on tour. He certainly had an understanding of what Mac did back then, which he discusses in his epic Let's Talk Golf Machine thread. But his teaching did not go in that direction. To make a drive by accusation like that is reckless and petty. We get it you don't like what JE teaches...move on.

[eightiron]

Why don't you move on back to Sitd nfbandon! Yes erikson stole macs notes from his room, your blubbering isn't going to change the facts

[bph7]

[quote name='oikos1' timestamp='1386346277' post='8258305']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386343940' post='8258133']
No he didn't knock stuff off out of people's hotel rooms! Hey Oikos how come this is the only thread you have ever posted in although you have been a member for well over 2 years ? Are you a plant? Or a double agent?
[/quote]

No, but I do enjoy the paranoia that runs rampant in these forums. Personally, I think the most enjoyable format would be if no one knew who anyone was, no pedigrees to get in the way of open minded thinking. That is the advantage to the internet that we aren't taking full of advantage of, although I'm trying.

As for JE and Mac, it's one thing to challenge/question/debunk theories, it's entirely different to make accusations of stealing. At what point is an individual allowed to take the information they have acquired from their life experiences and make it their own? After all, the point of education is the sharing of information.
[/quote]

Disagree that this board would be anyway improved by any further degree of anonymity. How would you know how to weigh the value of the info you are getting? There are so many posters on here that are much easier to just tune out once you know who they are. If you didn't, it would just take forever trying to sift through everything.

[tembolo1284]

SVS got banned already? A shame!

[bph7]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386349133' post='8258547']
SVS got banned already? A shame!
[/quote]

No worries, we all know the next "iteration" of SVS will be back soon enough...

[oikos1]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1386348261' post='8258485']
[quote name='oikos1' timestamp='1386346277' post='8258305']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386343940' post='8258133']
No he didn't knock stuff off out of people's hotel rooms! Hey Oikos how come this is the only thread you have ever posted in although you have been a member for well over 2 years ? Are you a plant? Or a double agent?
[/quote]

No, but I do enjoy the paranoia that runs rampant in these forums. Personally, I think the most enjoyable format would be if no one knew who anyone was, no pedigrees to get in the way of open minded thinking. That is the advantage to the internet that we aren't taking full of advantage of, although I'm trying.

As for JE and Mac, it's one thing to challenge/question/debunk theories, it's entirely different to make accusations of stealing. At what point is an individual allowed to take the information they have acquired from their life experiences and make it their own? After all, the point of education is the sharing of information.
[/quote]

Disagree that this board would be anyway improved by any further degree of anonymity. How would you know how to weigh the value of the info you are getting? There are so many posters on here that are much easier to just tune out once you know who they are. If you didn't, it would just take forever trying to sift through everything.
[/quote]

I see why you might disagree, bph7. I just don't find it that hard to gather, organize, interpret and apply information (proper execution is another story). Sometimes it's nice not to be inhibited by predispositions so that you can "weigh the value of the info you are getting". Within the "free forum" internet format, it's hard to be 100% certain the information you are getting is from who you think it is anyway. And if someone has something really good that helps you, who cares if it came from Harmon, Mac or if it was something told to a 20 handicap he heard from an old school golfer?

That said, I realize it can't always be this way.

[oikos1]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1386347327' post='8258397']
Why don't you move on back to Sitd nfbandon! [b]Yes erikson stole macs notes from his room, your blubbering isn't going to change the facts[/b]
[/quote]

Is this true? Has this been confirmed?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1386349631' post='8258585'] [quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386349133' post='8258547'] SVS got banned already? A shame! [/quote] No worries, we all know the next "iteration" of SVS will be back soon enough... [/quote]

yes, I think we will see superveryextremelyscratch pretty soon. He's like those trick candles that relight themselves.

[northgolf]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1386351053' post='8258733']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1386349631' post='8258585'] [quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386349133' post='8258547'] SVS got banned already? A shame! [/quote] No worries, we all know the next "iteration" of SVS will be back soon enough... [/quote]

yes, I think we will see superveryextremelyscratch pretty soon. He's like those trick candles that relight themselves.
[/quote]

Yes, but why keep picking logins that will get you banned in short order?

[virtuoso]

[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1386351220' post='8258753']
[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1386351053' post='8258733']
[quote name='bph7' timestamp='1386349631' post='8258585'] [quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1386349133' post='8258547'] SVS got banned already? A shame! [/quote] No worries, we all know the next "iteration" of SVS will be back soon enough... [/quote]

yes, I think we will see superveryextremelyscratch pretty soon. He's like those trick candles that relight themselves.
[/quote]

Yes, but why keep picking logins that will get you banned in short order?
[/quote]

Yes, it's fair to say he's not a cryptologist.

[bph7]

[quote name='virtuoso' timestamp='1386352721' post='8258889']
[quote name='northgolf' timestamp='1386351220' post='8258753']

Yes, but why keep picking logins that will get you banned in short order?
[/quote]

Yes, it's fair to say he's not a cryptologist.
[/quote]

I wonder the same thing myself. Why pick superveryscratch when veryscratch is banned and there is already superscratch? I think he knows he will be banned quickly no matter what, and he plans on making a new username anyway, but would like for people to know its "him" for the short period of time when he is allowed to post between bannings.