Hogan hands around the cookies to take away.

[Kiwi2]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390422060' post='8510765']
Hmmmmm.... I wonder if Mr. Waldon will return.
Among all this some basic questions remain unresolved.
Firstly, if a high profile teacher claims something and teaches it and makes money from it, ought they not be able to and feel compelled to provide evidence that what they say is correct?
Mr. Waldron claims the 45* hands push-away is the Golden Rule, which I guess means you have to do it (or very close to 45*) to achieve a good golf swing.
Mr. Waldron claims ALL the great ball strikers used a hands push-away to a certain amount.
Mr. Waldron has provided no evidence at all that the second claim is true.
Mr. Waldron has not shown graphically even ONE great ball striker who has something like his hands push-away.
Nor has he shown images of a student doing it correctly.

Question 1: Is it possible to see this push-away in still images?
I think it would be, because if the hands move 8-12 inches further away from the body surely that would be quite easy to see.
I kept asking him clear straight forward questions like this and never got an answer.
My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away, this should be quite easy to see even in 2D pictures. Its really just picking the club up at the start of the swing (in the 45* direction).
Lee Trevino, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk would be the ones I think who do pick the club up quickly.
Question 2: Are these swings what you are talking about take-away wise?

I just put some dots on Couples take-away and his hands go straight up vertically (DTL view) for about 6-8 inches I guess, then they go or are taken at a steep angle to well above his right shoulder, much like how Dinosaur looks in his avatar.
Have I cracked the code?

I think I have to my satisfaction, I actually like to understand something before I say it is difficult/flawed/suspect etc.
phewwww! I am actually relieved, finally a light bulb, I know what it is!
(There's a thing in my head vibrating and saying "why didn't he just say so at the beginning", I know the reason but that's a psychological assessment and I won't go there).

Moving on... or backwards... you guys haven't answered my original question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the hell do you get your hands out there?
Not that i neccessarily want to do it, just wanna know how it can be done.
[/quote]

Jim can respond if he wishes Pin,

but your comment" My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away,"

suggests you are doing it incorrectly. It is actually a scooping action.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

In the moveaway the arm push is blended with a 45 degree torso turn. The feeling here is 90% torso turn and 10% arm pushaway. It should also feel that the hands only move an inch, not the 6 to 8 inches that actually occurs. The torso and arm should occur together. That is, it is a unified motion.

The rest of it is answered in the ASI thread.

[Dinosaur]

TOA.....

[tembolo1284]

TOA?

[Dinosaur]

Ask Kiwi....he "might" know.

[tembolo1284]

Is tom kite a great ballstriker?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o[/url]

[Pinsplitter59]

Ahaaaa!! Lightbulb!!
Its Greg Norman's turn around to shake hands with someone behind you!!
Except then I think you have to add the old stand with your bum against a wall and don't let the club head hit the wall.
Dear old Greg and Tom woulda brought down a lot of hotel walls with those backswings.
Finally I realise its nothing new and just some re-packaged old ideas to sell space in a golf school to beginners and bad golfers.


nihil novi sub sole (there's nothing new under the sun).

Ok you dudes.... how does the width of your stance affect you ability to stay "down" in place solid on the ball?
Its my next project, damn it hurts my wee legs, but I notice it solves my right leg always straightening too much problem.
How wide can you go?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390360069' post='8506081']
Put up proof then.

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlT-rgAa0M
[/quote]

That's a nice swing and vid. Not down the line though. You can even tell that by watching the line the ball takes off on. Snead had a fabulous swing and it wasn't around or intentionally inside. If this were in fact down the line I'm betting you'd see it looking very similar in the important areas to the stenson photo.

[Forged_Irons]

What does hands around the cookies mean anyway?

[tembolo1284]

cookies are round and delicious.

[dairic]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390481559' post='8515299']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390360069' post='8506081']
Put up proof then.

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlT-rgAa0M"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=wAlT-rgAa0M[/url]
[/quote]

That's a nice swing and vid. Not down the line though. You can even tell that by watching the line the ball takes off on. Snead had a fabulous swing and it wasn't around or intentionally inside. [b]If this were in fact down the line I'm betting you'd see it looking very similar in the important areas to the stenson photo[/b].
[/quote]

Don't construct your conclusions based on pre-concieved assumptions. Put up the evidence and let the facts speak for themselves.

[ej002]

Yessir - I put up more than one video

[tembolo1284]

What you guys have against cookies?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390443473' post='8513315']
Is tom kite a great ballstriker?

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o"]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o[/url]
[/quote]

Kite doesn't do what he says to do when he actually hits the ball. Haha
In his little drill he twists and rolls his weight to the outside of his right foot, severely. When he hits the ball the club does stay in center, but he doesn't twist like in the drill and his weight stays inside his right foot.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='dairic' timestamp='1390492199' post='8516337']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390481559' post='8515299']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390360069' post='8506081']
Put up proof then.

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlT-rgAa0M"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=wAlT-rgAa0M[/url]
[/quote]

That's a nice swing and vid. Not down the line though. You can even tell that by watching the line the ball takes off on. Snead had a fabulous swing and it wasn't around or intentionally inside. [b]If this were in fact down the line I'm betting you'd see it looking very similar in the important areas to the stenson photo[/b].
[/quote]

Don't construct your conclusions based on pre-concieved assumptions. Put up the evidence and let the facts speak for themselves.
[/quote]
The Tom Kite video is proof enough. His demonstration and his actual shot are completely different. He also switched to an athletic motion before he won the US Open.

[chrisgilly09]

Like I said...keep the pivot moving out of the way and you can take it as inside as you please. Ain't hard stuff, IMO all those people I mentioned a few pages ago are firmly in that camp

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390516076' post='8519025']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390443473' post='8513315']
Is tom kite a great ballstriker?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o[/media]
[/quote]

Kite doesn't do what he says to do when he actually hits the ball. Haha
In his little drill he twists and rolls his weight to the outside of his right foot, severely. When he hits the ball the club does stay in center, but he doesn't twist like in the drill and his weight stays inside his right foot.
[/quote]

Tom Kite is a liar!

[ej002]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1390517836' post='8519197']
Like I said...keep the pivot moving out of the way and you can take it as inside as you please. Ain't hard stuff, IMO all those people I mentioned a few pages ago are firmly in that camp
[/quote]

Apparently that is what Jim means too... how, I don't know.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390450218' post='8514023']
Ahaaaa!! Lightbulb!!
Its Greg Norman's turn around to shake hands with someone behind you!!
Except then I think you have to add the old stand with your bum against a wall and don't let the club head hit the wall.
Dear old Greg and Tom woulda brought down a lot of hotel walls with those backswings.
Finally I realise its nothing new and just some re-packaged old ideas to sell space in a golf school to beginners and bad golfers.


nihil novi sub sole (there's nothing new under the sun).

Ok you dudes.... how does the width of your stance affect you ability to stay "down" in place solid on the ball?
Its my next project, damn it hurts my wee legs, but I notice it solves my right leg always straightening too much problem.
How wide can you go?
[/quote]
SENSATIONAL STUFF!!!! Going back and shaking hands is an awesome way to rehearse the backswing! And you're right on with the butt up against the to get the club going up by hinging the right elbow and not hitting the wall! These drills work on practicing motions and not positions which is a far superior way to learn. Very similar to Hogan saying it was like throwing a medicine ball to a target 15 feet in front of him.
Moreover the downswing according to tiger woods is very similar to shaking hands with someone in front of you on your target line with your right hand!!!

[chrisgilly09]

Makes ya wonder ej, IMO any push away look with the old timers is because the pivot is keeping up with the arms/club in the BS, not an arm move out toward the target line blended with pivot. I just think it would stand to reason that if the pivot is going inside, then so should the arms, to keep things moving at the same speed/direction. But who knows

[tembolo1284]

What about a dude like jay haas?

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='chrisgilly09' timestamp='1390520438' post='8519493']
Makes ya wonder ej, IMO any push away look with the old timers is because the pivot is keeping up with the arms/club in the BS, not an arm move out toward the target line blended with pivot. I just think it would stand to reason that if the pivot is going inside, then so should the arms, to keep things moving at the same speed/direction. But who knows
[/quote]
I say forget about what the arms are doing and use pinsplitters (Greg Norman's) drill. Take your whole left side back as if you were gonna shake hands with someone behind you (behind you in the range between your ball and your toes (not around behind yourself). Watch how seamlessly everything works in one piece back. Then just add your right hand. To continue after that the left shoulder keeps moving to the right while the right shoulder moves up. The right elbow hinges naturally as the right shoulder goes up (avoiding a imaginary wall behind you if you like that drill, which I do) and everything is moving into your inner right thigh also automatically btw. The backswing is complete when the shoulders can no longer move without a separation of the left upper arm and the chest at the shoulder joint. No extra points (or power or accuracy) for over swinging using arms and lifting past shoulder range if motion. You can still kill it from here as long as your weight is loaded into your right leg. Again 99% of this will happen naturally with pinsplitters shake hands drill!

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390518363' post='8519257']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390516076' post='8519025']
[quote name='tembolo1284' timestamp='1390443473' post='8513315']
Is tom kite a great ballstriker?

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Rm7HdZ3nl0o[/media]
[/quote]

Kite doesn't do what he says to do when he actually hits the ball. Haha
In his little drill he twists and rolls his weight to the outside of his right foot, severely. When he hits the ball the club does stay in center, but he doesn't twist like in the drill and his weight stays inside his right foot.
[/quote]

Tom Kite is a liar!
[/quote]
Nah, many players explain what they do citing feels. Feels are abstract and often bear no resemblance to what they are actually doing. I watched Faldo in a recent piece for golf channel where he said he likes to imagine he's moving the butt of the club down toward his right knee on the downswing. But in actuality he does in such thing.

[eightiron]

[quote name='Jim Waldron' timestamp='1390351073' post='8504907']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390350430' post='8504809']
Jim you said nothing of value. I don't agree with you, arms play an Important role. In some of the beat strikers they move inside along the elbow plane not out and rigid. Again sadlowski or daly are big examples of how the arms work, neither of them have lazy pivots. It's called hands controlled pivot not the other way around. The distance From right of midline to more in front blows your theory out of the water.

I agree with Pin 10000%

But I disagree with the basic fundamental concept that the arms don't do anything but go up and down 12 inches.
[/quote]

Again - you are thinking in 2D. I have said several times now to you and you clearly are not even attempting to understand me. Gee - why am I not surprised by that? And this is your A game?

Really? Arms of course arc to the inside - just not very much in the horizontal dimension independently. By "independently" I mean the upper arms moving laterally from the shoulder sockets past that 45 degree angle marker. The body rotation moves the arms DEPENDENTLY at the same time as the arms themselves are moving independently in the 3 dimensions, and most of that is in depth dimension during takeaway. They are moving way less in the horizontal dimension than you believe. I

[b]Do you even understand "elbow plane"? It just means a reference point for the shaft plane angle which gets a little bit higher in the vertical dimension than Address shaft plane.[/b]

Wrong on Hands Controlled Pivot too.

All that really means is how the golfer's mind processes information in the Sensory Feedback System.

Come on, ej. Is this the best you got - resorting to qouting TGM concepts that evem most TGM teachers cannot agree on?
[/quote]

NO this is incorrect . The elbow plane is defined by the sweet spot through the #3 pressure point on the grip to the elbow joint , it has nothing to do with shaft plane

[Pinsplitter59]

Ain't my drill.. heard it said by Greg Norman and he also said he turned the right pocket away when he wanted a full-on power swing.
Its also nearly the same as Matinez's take-away, except he prefers a counter-clockwise arms motion (I still don't get that).
For all the golfers who do a turn-around take-away I think the only differences then are whether you allow your right arm to fold causing left forearm rotation over the top of the right arm (Martinez) or do some actual lift of the arms/hands after the initial turn, how much lift and what angle it goes on varies a lot of course.
Ages ago I compared Hogan, Norman and Tiger (2000) at the top of swing and the shoulders angle to the ground was almost the same for all of them, it seems they all take the same torso turn and only vary in what the arms do.
Norman was really the first to get his left arm "flatter" and deeper after the 60's-70's infatuation with Nicklaus style backswing.
Now if Jimmy had said early on that you turn and lift your arms/hands i think we all would have understood much sooner and we all could have yeahhhh we know that already (though he does advocate a quite steep lift, not what many pros do anymore, Garcia and McIlroy do of course, but ohhh boy can mere mortals do their downswings!).

Anyhow its all just theory to me, my body can't do any of it.
I'm gonna take a really really wide stance, bend my knees as if i was being blessed by the Pope, and swing my hands around my knees.
Gonna call it The Sword Through The Ankles Of Your Enemy Golf Swing.

[eightiron]

Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?

 

And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.

 

Dufner was one of the examples used by Pin in his original post.

 

The evidence speaks for itself. Some people are so entrenched in their mindset that they cannot see the truth.

 

 

Hogan hitting a punchy little 6 iron to the last green would hardly classify as the ideal project for some line drawing attempt ! Btw I hope they are not your lines or words on the video , I am reading that you and waldron are objecting to certain posters being stuck in 2 dim land ! Seems like an odd argument anyway since I didn't see anyone debating the " stuck syndrome" which is normally a reference to the trail elbow behind the shirt seam . How would, the lines look on this one below/ pic won't load / add it later

 

 

[eightiron]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390481559' post='8515299']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390360069' post='8506081']
Put up proof then.

[url="http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=wAlT-rgAa0M"]http://m.youtube.com...h?v=wAlT-rgAa0M[/url]
[/quote]

That's a nice swing and vid. Not down the line though. You can even tell that by watching the line the ball takes off on. Snead had a fabulous swing and it wasn't around or intentionally inside. If this were in fact down the line I'm betting you'd see it looking very similar in the important areas to the stenson photo.
[/quote]

I have not looked at stensons swing so i wont comment on that . However i will comment on the camera angle , you are correct the camera is to far right , the issue is that if it was more left and on the dtl baseline than sams club head would actually appear even more inside !

[ej002]

http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hhGWxqj_bC0

[eightiron]

[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1390425531' post='8511127']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390422060' post='8510765']
Hmmmmm.... I wonder if Mr. Waldon will return.
Among all this some basic questions remain unresolved.
Firstly, if a high profile teacher claims something and teaches it and makes money from it, ought they not be able to and feel compelled to provide evidence that what they say is correct?
Mr. Waldron claims the 45* hands push-away is the Golden Rule, which I guess means you have to do it (or very close to 45*) to achieve a good golf swing.
Mr. Waldron claims ALL the great ball strikers used a hands push-away to a certain amount.
Mr. Waldron has provided no evidence at all that the second claim is true.
Mr. Waldron has not shown graphically even ONE great ball striker who has something like his hands push-away.
Nor has he shown images of a student doing it correctly.

Question 1: Is it possible to see this push-away in still images?
I think it would be, because if the hands move 8-12 inches further away from the body surely that would be quite easy to see.
I kept asking him clear straight forward questions like this and never got an answer.
My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away, this should be quite easy to see even in 2D pictures. Its really just picking the club up at the start of the swing (in the 45* direction).
Lee Trevino, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk would be the ones I think who do pick the club up quickly.
Question 2: Are these swings what you are talking about take-away wise?

I just put some dots on Couples take-away and his hands go straight up vertically (DTL view) for about 6-8 inches I guess, then they go or are taken at a steep angle to well above his right shoulder, much like how Dinosaur looks in his avatar.
Have I cracked the code?

I think I have to my satisfaction, I actually like to understand something before I say it is difficult/flawed/suspect etc.
phewwww! I am actually relieved, finally a light bulb, I know what it is!
(There's a thing in my head vibrating and saying "why didn't he just say so at the beginning", I know the reason but that's a psychological assessment and I won't go there).

Moving on... or backwards... you guys haven't answered my original question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the hell do you get your hands out there?
Not that i neccessarily want to do it, just wanna know how it can be done.
[/quote]

Jim can respond if he wishes Pin,

but your comment" My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away,"

suggests you are doing it incorrectly. It is actually a scooping action.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

In the moveaway the arm push is blended with a 45 degree torso turn. The feeling here is 90% torso turn and 10% arm pushaway. It should also feel that the hands only move an inch, not the 6 to 8 inches that actually occurs. The torso and arm should occur together. That is, it is a unified motion.

The rest of it is answered in the ASI thread.
[/quote]

Thanks for the video , I think it was a reasonable attempt at what a lot of modern tour players do . Imop it does not represent what a lot of the older style great strikers did . First thing I like about the video was the notion that momentum moved the club back , however there was no explanation of how the momentum occurred ( unless i missed it) .
The greats like Hogan , Snead did use momentum from the ground up via a trigger move ( bunny hop / shimmy ) against the sagittal plane with the rebound resulting in a pulling motion of the right side from the left side ( I like Dariusz"s concept on this point)
. With this there is some lagging club head which brings about its own set of problems for the wrists to set early enough . Hogan solved this issue with his secret that he wrote about , also you can dig up a video of Venturi discussing this with Mclean and showing the move ( left wrist / arm rolling and cocking ). So if you use an inside handpath and send the sweet spot around and up via the elbow plane you want to have the pronation/ cocking etc plus nice depth in the pivot keep it on plane.

Getting to the controversial part of "connection" and losing some with the push out part of the video , imop it is nothing like what Hogan did . Reason is that Hogan at set up or as he pulled the trigger his right shoulder was in internal rotation and to get to pitch elbow he used his pronation ( left arm around and across the chest ) and the key ingredient of right shoulder external rotation . The motion of going from internal to external providing the necessary space for pitch elbow causes the " disconnection" of the upper arm from the chest

[Forged_Irons]

Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?

 

And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.

 

Dufner was one of the examples used by Pin in his original post.

 

The evidence speaks for itself. Some people are so entrenched in their mindset that they cannot see the truth.

 

 

Hogan hitting a punchy little 6 iron to the last green would hardly classify as the ideal project for some line drawing attempt ! Btw I hope they are not your lines or words on the video , I am reading that you and waldron are objecting to certain posters being stuck in 2 dim land ! Seems like an odd argument anyway since I didn't see anyone debating the " stuck syndrome" which is normally a reference to the trail elbow behind the shirt seam . How would, the lines look on this one below/ pic won't load / add it later

[Forged_Irons]

Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?

 

And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.

 

Dufner was one of the examples used by Pin in his original post.

 

The evidence speaks for itself. Some people are so entrenched in their mindset that they cannot see the truth.

 

 

Hogan hitting a punchy little 6 iron to the last green would hardly classify as the ideal project for some line drawing attempt ! Btw I hope they are not your lines or words on the video , I am reading that you and waldron are objecting to certain posters being stuck in 2 dim land ! Seems like an odd argument anyway since I didn't see anyone debating the " stuck syndrome" which is normally a reference to the trail elbow behind the shirt seam . How would, the lines look on this one below/ pic won't load / add it later

Truth about what exactly? Again, the oblique angle here belies any real instructional value.