Hogan hands around the cookies to take away.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390537294' post='8521517']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1390425531' post='8511127']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390422060' post='8510765']
Hmmmmm.... I wonder if Mr. Waldon will return.
Among all this some basic questions remain unresolved.
Firstly, if a high profile teacher claims something and teaches it and makes money from it, ought they not be able to and feel compelled to provide evidence that what they say is correct?
Mr. Waldron claims the 45* hands push-away is the Golden Rule, which I guess means you have to do it (or very close to 45*) to achieve a good golf swing.
Mr. Waldron claims ALL the great ball strikers used a hands push-away to a certain amount.
Mr. Waldron has provided no evidence at all that the second claim is true.
Mr. Waldron has not shown graphically even ONE great ball striker who has something like his hands push-away.
Nor has he shown images of a student doing it correctly.

Question 1: Is it possible to see this push-away in still images?
I think it would be, because if the hands move 8-12 inches further away from the body surely that would be quite easy to see.
I kept asking him clear straight forward questions like this and never got an answer.
My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away, this should be quite easy to see even in 2D pictures. Its really just picking the club up at the start of the swing (in the 45* direction).
Lee Trevino, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk would be the ones I think who do pick the club up quickly.
Question 2: Are these swings what you are talking about take-away wise?

I just put some dots on Couples take-away and his hands go straight up vertically (DTL view) for about 6-8 inches I guess, then they go or are taken at a steep angle to well above his right shoulder, much like how Dinosaur looks in his avatar.
Have I cracked the code?

I think I have to my satisfaction, I actually like to understand something before I say it is difficult/flawed/suspect etc.
phewwww! I am actually relieved, finally a light bulb, I know what it is!
(There's a thing in my head vibrating and saying "why didn't he just say so at the beginning", I know the reason but that's a psychological assessment and I won't go there).

Moving on... or backwards... you guys haven't answered my original question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the hell do you get your hands out there?
Not that i neccessarily want to do it, just wanna know how it can be done.
[/quote]

Jim can respond if he wishes Pin,

but your comment" My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away,"

suggests you are doing it incorrectly. It is actually a scooping action.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

In the moveaway the arm push is blended with a 45 degree torso turn. The feeling here is 90% torso turn and 10% arm pushaway. It should also feel that the hands only move an inch, not the 6 to 8 inches that actually occurs. The torso and arm should occur together. That is, it is a unified motion.

The rest of it is answered in the ASI thread.
[/quote]

Thanks for the video , I think it was a reasonable attempt at what a lot of modern tour players do . Imop it does not represent what a lot of the older style great strikers did . First thing I like about the video was the notion that momentum moved the club back , however there was no explanation of how the momentum occurred ( unless i missed it) .
The greats like Hogan , Snead did use momentum from the ground up via a trigger move ( bunny hop / shimmy ) against the sagittal plane with the rebound resulting in a pulling motion of the right side from the left side ( I like Dariusz"s concept on this point)
. With this there is some lagging club head which brings about its own set of problems for the wrists to set early enough . Hogan solved this issue with his secret that he wrote about , also you can dig up a video of Venturi discussing this with Mclean and showing the move ( left wrist / arm rolling and cocking ). So if you use an inside handpath and send the sweet spot around and up via the elbow plane you want to have the pronation/ cocking etc plus nice depth in the pivot keep it on plane.

Getting to the controversial part of "connection" and losing some with the push out part of the video , imop it is nothing like what Hogan did . Reason is that Hogan at set up or as he pulled the trigger his right shoulder was in internal rotation and to get to pitch elbow he used his pronation ( left arm around and across the chest ) and the key ingredient of right shoulder external rotation . The motion of going from internal to external providing the necessary space for pitch elbow causes the " disconnection" of the upper arm from the chest
[/quote]
Gentleman, gentleman; I feel as if everyone is getting too nit picky here. Do yourself a favor and do Hogan's medicine ball training exercise. The weight of the medicine ball forces you to use your big muscles to move the impliment. The challenge after getting a good motion going with the ball is to replace the ball with the club and imagine that the grip is a long skinny ball and throw it the exact same way. This drill, done properly, will eliminate any pronation, supination, lifting, rolling, cocking, turning, hyper extending, and improper weight shifts.
I believe Mr. Waldron's explanation of what happens in the swing is quite accurate because many things happen in the swing that are not independent motions in and of themselves but depend on coordinated motions. I believe that the medicine ball teaches these in a way that is simple, fun, and athletic.

[ej002]

Wow... Ben got fat and ugly in that picture or did I wander into the Jason Dufner forum?

 

And I am not wrong. Hogan didn't swing that TSP unathletic nonsense.

 

Dufner was one of the examples used by Pin in his original post.

 

The evidence speaks for itself. Some people are so entrenched in their mindset that they cannot see the truth.

 

 

Hogan hitting a punchy little 6 iron to the last green would hardly classify as the ideal project for some line drawing attempt ! Btw I hope they are not your lines or words on the video , I am reading that you and waldron are objecting to certain posters being stuck in 2 dim land ! Seems like an odd argument anyway since I didn't see anyone debating the " stuck syndrome" which is normally a reference to the trail elbow behind the shirt seam . How would, the lines look on this one below/ pic won't load / add it later

Truth about what exactly? Again, the oblique angle here belies any real instructional value.

 

Again with the oblique angle... we are not using protractors here, just broad concepts. You guys are in an arm swing delusion.... lmao

[ej002]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390583425' post='8523971']
[b]Gentleman, gentleman; I feel as if everyone is getting too nit picky here. [/b] Do yourself a favor and do Hogan's medicine ball training exercise. The weight of the medicine ball forces you to use your big muscles to move the impliment. The challenge after getting a good motion going with the ball is to replace the ball with the club and imagine that the grip is a long skinny ball and throw it the exact same way. This drill, done properly, will eliminate any pronation, supination, lifting, rolling, cocking, turning, hyper extending, and improper weight shifts.
I believe Mr. Waldron's explanation of what happens in the swing is quite accurate because many things happen in the swing that are not independent motions in and of themselves but depend on coordinated motions. I believe that the medicine ball teaches these in a way that is simple, fun, and athletic.
[/quote]

You are right, "oblique angle" man!

[eightiron]

[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390583425' post='8523971']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390537294' post='8521517']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1390425531' post='8511127']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390422060' post='8510765']
Hmmmmm.... I wonder if Mr. Waldon will return.
Among all this some basic questions remain unresolved.
Firstly, if a high profile teacher claims something and teaches it and makes money from it, ought they not be able to and feel compelled to provide evidence that what they say is correct?
Mr. Waldron claims the 45* hands push-away is the Golden Rule, which I guess means you have to do it (or very close to 45*) to achieve a good golf swing.
Mr. Waldron claims ALL the great ball strikers used a hands push-away to a certain amount.
Mr. Waldron has provided no evidence at all that the second claim is true.
Mr. Waldron has not shown graphically even ONE great ball striker who has something like his hands push-away.
Nor has he shown images of a student doing it correctly.

Question 1: Is it possible to see this push-away in still images?
I think it would be, because if the hands move 8-12 inches further away from the body surely that would be quite easy to see.
I kept asking him clear straight forward questions like this and never got an answer.
My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away, this should be quite easy to see even in 2D pictures. Its really just picking the club up at the start of the swing (in the 45* direction).
Lee Trevino, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk would be the ones I think who do pick the club up quickly.
Question 2: Are these swings what you are talking about take-away wise?

I just put some dots on Couples take-away and his hands go straight up vertically (DTL view) for about 6-8 inches I guess, then they go or are taken at a steep angle to well above his right shoulder, much like how Dinosaur looks in his avatar.
Have I cracked the code?

I think I have to my satisfaction, I actually like to understand something before I say it is difficult/flawed/suspect etc.
phewwww! I am actually relieved, finally a light bulb, I know what it is!
(There's a thing in my head vibrating and saying "why didn't he just say so at the beginning", I know the reason but that's a psychological assessment and I won't go there).

Moving on... or backwards... you guys haven't answered my original question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the hell do you get your hands out there?
Not that i neccessarily want to do it, just wanna know how it can be done.
[/quote]

Jim can respond if he wishes Pin,

but your comment" My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away,"

suggests you are doing it incorrectly. It is actually a scooping action.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

In the moveaway the arm push is blended with a 45 degree torso turn. The feeling here is 90% torso turn and 10% arm pushaway. It should also feel that the hands only move an inch, not the 6 to 8 inches that actually occurs. The torso and arm should occur together. That is, it is a unified motion.

The rest of it is answered in the ASI thread.
[/quote]

Thanks for the video , I think it was a reasonable attempt at what a lot of modern tour players do . Imop it does not represent what a lot of the older style great strikers did . First thing I like about the video was the notion that momentum moved the club back , however there was no explanation of how the momentum occurred ( unless i missed it) .
The greats like Hogan , Snead did use momentum from the ground up via a trigger move ( bunny hop / shimmy ) against the sagittal plane with the rebound resulting in a pulling motion of the right side from the left side ( I like Dariusz"s concept on this point)
. With this there is some lagging club head which brings about its own set of problems for the wrists to set early enough . Hogan solved this issue with his secret that he wrote about , also you can dig up a video of Venturi discussing this with Mclean and showing the move ( left wrist / arm rolling and cocking ). So if you use an inside handpath and send the sweet spot around and up via the elbow plane you want to have the pronation/ cocking etc plus nice depth in the pivot keep it on plane.

Getting to the controversial part of "connection" and losing some with the push out part of the video , imop it is nothing like what Hogan did . Reason is that Hogan at set up or as he pulled the trigger his right shoulder was in internal rotation and to get to pitch elbow he used his pronation ( left arm around and across the chest ) and the key ingredient of right shoulder external rotation . The motion of going from internal to external providing the necessary space for pitch elbow causes the " disconnection" of the upper arm from the chest
[/quote]
Gentleman, gentleman; I feel as if everyone is getting too nit picky here. Do yourself a favor and do Hogan's medicine ball training exercise. The weight of the medicine ball forces you to use your big muscles to move the impliment. The challenge after getting a good motion going with the ball is to replace the ball with the club and imagine that the grip is a long skinny ball and throw it the exact same way. This drill, done properly, will eliminate any pronation, supination, lifting, rolling, cocking, turning, hyper extending, and improper weight shifts.
I believe Mr. Waldron's explanation of what happens in the swing is quite accurate because many things happen in the swing that are not independent motions in and of themselves but depend on coordinated motions. I believe that the medicine ball teaches these in a way that is simple, fun, and athletic.
[/quote]

Well congratulations on achieving your world class golf swing via the medicine ball , perhaps you could link it right here to show us how it's done!

[Pinsplitter59]

Damn you Ben Hogan! I've done me back! Oww oww owww.
Thank god I'm not playing today, its mixed foursomes, they put on stupid events in summer to amuse the out-of-towners, mixed foursomes is like going to church, you have to pray, be nice and forgiving, smile at incredibly shocking things and you can't swear.
I really don't like playing with women, they talk too much.
Can't remember Ben ever playing a mixed foursome, see there's proof.
Valerie was so nice though when she walked up to Ben on the practice range and said "Aren't you tired honey, you've been out here for five hours?" (Follow The Sun movie, not Duel in the Sun which is about mixed foursomes).
He didn't say "Just one more honey, I almost got it" , that would be me.

[ej002]

pin I agree with you - how in the world can Hogan have a "high maintenance " swing.... Blasphemy

[chrisgilly09]

See this is why eight is a real gem; his incredible use of exclamation points lol

[ej002]

^^^ it is funny that he comes back and the challengers stop responding.

[Pinsplitter59]

I kinda like eightiron, don't know why, might be his hmmphhhh!! grumpy old man thing, bit like myself.
Anyhow, did some Jimmy Ballard stuff and its interesting to a point and works to a point, at least the way i was doing it,
but didn't like it when I played, didn't pass the test.
The test: Easy, Comfortable, Repeatable, Control, Confidence.
So practicing last night I did pretty much the opposite in terms of take-away.
Have had a "shut" take-away for as long as I can remember, not considered so bad nowadays with square to path thinking.
But by opening my hands at address (shank of club facing ball, right hand very under), i solved my shut take-away, for some reason I cannot take-away and turn my left wrist over, doesn't compute in my brain-body.
Strange thing happened. Hit some of the best 3 irons for many years.
Really hard solid impact, ball going out with thrust, love that look, hate the pushed floater shot.
I found just doing that really set my right hand so "square" and ready, kept arms in a good place as well.
To me its a completely different feel and body-arms position to the one-piece turn around take-away.
A lot of those other guys would say ''ohhh you'll get so stuck doing that", but its so "un-stuck" its real easy to hit the ball.
Did this take-away before as a trial thing but never followed through on it, even noticed some tour pro setting the club head like that at address.
I tried the rotate left arm over and it half works for me but still gave me an awkward top of swing position and was difficult to return to the ball.
I have read talk about right palm up in downswing but this is not like that, this is like right palm facing sky in backswing only,
then right hand is so set "square" you just hit the ball, don't have to manipulate.
Gonna play today doing this.
Every day is new and every day is not the same as yesterday.
The compulsive seeker of simple effectiveness believes that if it is difficult to do it is wrong.

[ej002]

Were you really shut going back before, or just square to arc? So what did you do, change your grip a bit?

I personally feel like a shut face causes the left arm to open up more on the downswing, b/c you instinctively try to get that face more square than shut... so what happens is you drop the left arm open and get under plane.

[Pinsplitter59]

This may be just my new illusion but i will continue until it fails.
I didn't make any grip change (though my right hand could be a bit more on top in a perfect world),
Its kinda about just trying to take the shaft back on the actual angle is set at (shaft plane?),
the only way I can do that easily is to actually pre-set my hands rolled clockwise, normal address then just turn them open.
its what you do if you were actually trying to hit the ball with the shank of the club.
I notice that Hogan had the shaft on this shaft plane back to about 9 o'clock (3 o'clock? P something?),
then the arms i think just raise with he right arm folding.
This shaft move on shaft plane is considered "death" and "too far inside you'll get stuck" nowadays (Lord Jim's word), his take-away and Greg Norman's for example and millions of others have the shaft go above the shaft plane almost immediately.
Where Hogan's hands are only just going above the shaft plane, Norman's are about 8 inches above that plane already.
i think because the "modern" take-away puts the left arm "on top" and if you do that with an "inside" take-away you have problems.
Pictures lie so much, this take-away feels like you put your left arm "under" or your right arm "on top", if you want to hit the ball your left arm has to be out of the way, something I've struggled with for a thousand years.
Its a bit like a Ballard keeping the left elbow facing the ground but you need rotation of the right hand facing the sky, I don't like that as a method because its like conflicting motions.

It could be that if you don't open your right hand (and thus right forearm) to the sky very early, you simply can't do a Hogan-like take-away, because the right arm will always want to take the club more up not behind.
Ohh haaa my golly gosh maybe I have answered my original question.

[JackieTreehorn]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390956552' post='8554363']
This may be just my new illusion but i will continue until it fails.
I didn't make any grip change (though my right hand could be a bit more on top in a perfect world),
Its kinda about just trying to take the shaft back on the actual angle is set at (shaft plane?),
the only way I can do that easily is to actually pre-set my hands rolled clockwise, normal address then just turn them open.
its what you do if you were actually trying to hit the ball with the shank of the club.
I notice that Hogan had the shaft on this shaft plane back to about 9 o'clock (3 o'clock? P something?),
then the arms i think just raise with he right arm folding.
This shaft move on shaft plane is considered "death" and "too far inside you'll get stuck" nowadays (Lord Jim's word), his take-away and Greg Norman's for example and millions of others have the shaft go above the shaft plane almost immediately.
Where Hogan's hands are only just going above the shaft plane, Norman's are about 8 inches above that plane already.
i think because the "modern" take-away puts the left arm "on top" and if you do that with an "inside" take-away you have problems.
Pictures lie so much, this take-away feels like you put your left arm "under" or your right arm "on top", if you want to hit the ball your left arm has to be out of the way, something I've struggled with for a thousand years.
Its a bit like a Ballard keeping the left elbow facing the ground but you need rotation of the right hand facing the sky, I don't like that as a method because its like conflicting motions.

It could be that if you don't open your right hand (and thus right forearm) to the sky very early, you simply can't do a Hogan-like take-away, because the right arm will always want to take the club more up not behind.
Ohh haaa my golly gosh maybe I have answered my original question.
[/quote]

My latest address feel has been to "fully torque" my R wrist open (and bowed) before gripping, and it looks promising. I think it relates to what Ayers was saying with containment but I never completely followed. Kelvin notes some similar positions in the R wrist in Hogan's follow thru (Hogan's release article).

[ej002]

jT - that sounds like Martin alright - curl the wrist

[eightiron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1390927750' post='8550905']
^^^ it is funny that he comes back and the challengers stop responding.
[/quote]

They have nothing , made up nonsense to sell spots in golf schools to hackers who ooh and aha at anything sounding intelligent . Bottom line is that you won't see the swings of these guys because they would not sell a spot in the golf school

[Pinsplitter59]

I hope noone read all that nonsense i wrote above.
Why do i keep embarassing myself (don't answer that).
Today i think the golf swing is made just using your forearms,
the other bits from shoulder to elbow should be just kept close to your body and forgotten about.

[Forged_Irons]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390618488' post='8527309']
[quote name='Forged_Irons' timestamp='1390583425' post='8523971']
[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1390537294' post='8521517']
[quote name='Kiwi2' timestamp='1390425531' post='8511127']
[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1390422060' post='8510765']
Hmmmmm.... I wonder if Mr. Waldon will return.
Among all this some basic questions remain unresolved.
Firstly, if a high profile teacher claims something and teaches it and makes money from it, ought they not be able to and feel compelled to provide evidence that what they say is correct?
Mr. Waldron claims the 45* hands push-away is the Golden Rule, which I guess means you have to do it (or very close to 45*) to achieve a good golf swing.
Mr. Waldron claims ALL the great ball strikers used a hands push-away to a certain amount.
Mr. Waldron has provided no evidence at all that the second claim is true.
Mr. Waldron has not shown graphically even ONE great ball striker who has something like his hands push-away.
Nor has he shown images of a student doing it correctly.

Question 1: Is it possible to see this push-away in still images?
I think it would be, because if the hands move 8-12 inches further away from the body surely that would be quite easy to see.
I kept asking him clear straight forward questions like this and never got an answer.
My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away, this should be quite easy to see even in 2D pictures. Its really just picking the club up at the start of the swing (in the 45* direction).
Lee Trevino, Fred Couples and Jim Furyk would be the ones I think who do pick the club up quickly.
Question 2: Are these swings what you are talking about take-away wise?

I just put some dots on Couples take-away and his hands go straight up vertically (DTL view) for about 6-8 inches I guess, then they go or are taken at a steep angle to well above his right shoulder, much like how Dinosaur looks in his avatar.
Have I cracked the code?

I think I have to my satisfaction, I actually like to understand something before I say it is difficult/flawed/suspect etc.
phewwww! I am actually relieved, finally a light bulb, I know what it is!
(There's a thing in my head vibrating and saying "why didn't he just say so at the beginning", I know the reason but that's a psychological assessment and I won't go there).

Moving on... or backwards... you guys haven't answered my original question!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
How the hell do you get your hands out there?
Not that i neccessarily want to do it, just wanna know how it can be done.
[/quote]

Jim can respond if he wishes Pin,

but your comment" My lounge room experiments tell me that if you do the push-away your hands are much higher very early than say in a traditional one-piece take-away,"

suggests you are doing it incorrectly. It is actually a scooping action.

[media=]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pvznntaeulk[/media]

In the moveaway the arm push is blended with a 45 degree torso turn. The feeling here is 90% torso turn and 10% arm pushaway. It should also feel that the hands only move an inch, not the 6 to 8 inches that actually occurs. The torso and arm should occur together. That is, it is a unified motion.

The rest of it is answered in the ASI thread.
[/quote]

Thanks for the video , I think it was a reasonable attempt at what a lot of modern tour players do . Imop it does not represent what a lot of the older style great strikers did . First thing I like about the video was the notion that momentum moved the club back , however there was no explanation of how the momentum occurred ( unless i missed it) .
The greats like Hogan , Snead did use momentum from the ground up via a trigger move ( bunny hop / shimmy ) against the sagittal plane with the rebound resulting in a pulling motion of the right side from the left side ( I like Dariusz"s concept on this point)
. With this there is some lagging club head which brings about its own set of problems for the wrists to set early enough . Hogan solved this issue with his secret that he wrote about , also you can dig up a video of Venturi discussing this with Mclean and showing the move ( left wrist / arm rolling and cocking ). So if you use an inside handpath and send the sweet spot around and up via the elbow plane you want to have the pronation/ cocking etc plus nice depth in the pivot keep it on plane.

Getting to the controversial part of "connection" and losing some with the push out part of the video , imop it is nothing like what Hogan did . Reason is that Hogan at set up or as he pulled the trigger his right shoulder was in internal rotation and to get to pitch elbow he used his pronation ( left arm around and across the chest ) and the key ingredient of right shoulder external rotation . The motion of going from internal to external providing the necessary space for pitch elbow causes the " disconnection" of the upper arm from the chest
[/quote]
Gentleman, gentleman; I feel as if everyone is getting too nit picky here. Do yourself a favor and do Hogan's medicine ball training exercise. The weight of the medicine ball forces you to use your big muscles to move the impliment. The challenge after getting a good motion going with the ball is to replace the ball with the club and imagine that the grip is a long skinny ball and throw it the exact same way. This drill, done properly, will eliminate any pronation, supination, lifting, rolling, cocking, turning, hyper extending, and improper weight shifts.
I believe Mr. Waldron's explanation of what happens in the swing is quite accurate because many things happen in the swing that are not independent motions in and of themselves but depend on coordinated motions. I believe that the medicine ball teaches these in a way that is simple, fun, and athletic.
[/quote]

Well congratulations on achieving your world class golf swing via the medicine ball , perhaps you could link it right here to show us how it's done!
[/quote]I will upload the training exercise ASAP. Good idea.

[Pinsplitter59]

Random thoughts.
1. Its really hard to convince yourself to go around.
In tennis its so natural that you move the racqet around, the golf thing of looking at a target and aligning parallel etc. seem to tell the arms and body that you should swing along the straight line to make the ball go there.
2. there is almost no movement towards the target in the downswing.
3. Swinging up and down causes early extension as a natural result because the body extends up to balance the weight and force of the arms going down. If you swing up and down you need all those amazing tricks you learn over on the other side.
4. The biggest most common swing mistake is the impulse to go directly back to the ball from the top of the swing.
5. Many years ago a golf magazine asked pros what they felt in their swings, the ones who hit the ball the longest had a common feel of the club going "backwards" (to their rear) at the start of the downswing.
6. If you don't have a "circular around" path in the back swing its really hard to create it in the downswing, I think this is what Furyk, Trevino, Couples etc. learned to do, i.e. change a straight backswing path into a circular around downswing path, not easy to do.
7. Getting "stuck" only happens to up and down straight line swingers, circular around swingers can put the right elbow as far behind them as nature allows without a problem, and it is never necessary to try to force the right elbow "ahead".
8. Up and down straight line swingers have to learn to swing the arms independantly because the momemtum and energy of the hands/arms is being directed down to the ground, it dumps there and stops if they don't deliberately "force" the arms through.
Arms going down do not naturally go up afterwards, that's why you see tips like doing an "upper cut punch" through swing move.
9. It really is the stone on the end of a piece of string swing path, naturally circular and around and angled to suit your height, stance etc. "Unnatural" in feeling when you want to "hit the ball to the target".
10. To successfully swing around i think you need to learn and know where the club face is, so that even when the club face is moving in a circle you can feel/know that it is square at impact, when you know this your impulse to swing "straight" is overcome by proof.
11. Girls are really nice.

[gabh]

Hogan just swung his hands and arms up diagonally from address per kiwi? Totally disagree. With the shoulders moving as well, and his super quick tempo, his left upper arm would detach from his thin-massed chest and the hands would go steeply up immediately to turned shoulder plane, and maybe even squared shoulder plane. No way he could pass the elbow plane with that.

Hogan's hands goes back nearer horizontal than vertical in takeaway. IMO, the Arm Swing Illusion is far from Hogan, galaxies away, and I think the real illusion going on with the ASI believers is the benefit coming from the external rotation of right shoulder and higher plane (TSP) because unknowingly for them, only the higher plane would work for their grips.

[Pinsplitter59]

Yeah, I reckon Martinez is really close to Hogan's thing, guess it depends how the golfer experiences it, but it is like the right elbow hardly moves from its address position and the only "up" bit is the right forearm folding up, which of course takes the hands up, but the right elbow does not go "up" so the left arm aligns across the shoulders, certainly the hands never "push away" from his body, to me there is no feeling of the 2 arms "lifting" together, all the other motion is around.
it is just like he shows in the Ed Sullivan show, lock your elbows to your hips and the right forearm folds up from the momemtum, another thing J. Waldron got wrong, as Martinez says, the take-away momemtum can get the arms fully set if the golfer is relaxed enough.
One thing about Hogan is his very "soft" body at address, with the "modern" very firm address with "hard set" arms (McIlroy, Tiger etc) the arms certainly have to moved independantly. Love Jason Day's "soft" address by the way, he looks like he's carrying a basket of fragile eggs.

[gabh]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1392407998' post='8668927']
Yeah, I reckon Martinez is really close to Hogan's thing, guess it depends how the golfer experiences it, but it is like the right elbow hardly moves from its address position and the only "up" bit is the right forearm folding up, which of course takes the hands up, but the right elbow does not go "up" so the left arm aligns across the shoulders, certainly the hands never "push away" from his body, to me there is no feeling of the 2 arms "lifting" together, all the other motion is around.
it is just like he shows in the Ed Sullivan show, lock your elbows to your hips and the right forearm folds up from the momemtum, another thing J. Waldron got wrong, as Martinez says, the take-away momemtum can get the arms fully set if the golfer is relaxed enough.
One thing about Hogan is his very "soft" body at address, with the "modern" very firm address with "hard set" arms (McIlroy, Tiger etc) the arms certainly have to moved independantly. Love Jason Day's "soft" address by the way, he looks like he's carrying a basket of fragile eggs.
[/quote]

Right elbow doesn't move away from the torso much, but it retracts and bends almost immediately. Has to if the hands are moving more in. His left shoulder moving that down (on DTL view, you can immediately see space between his chin and left shoulder at takeaway even with a driver), no way you're gonna get the hands and sweet spot too much too inside. Then later the right forearm, just the right forearm, lifts and "pulls". Right hand position important on top IMO for his downswing and release. Grip plays a necessary part.

[tgreenwood11]

Of course the hands and arms move to the "inside" on the move back. You are standing to side of the ball.

[tembolo1284]

Oh I missed this thread!

[ej002]

So apparently any post in Waldrons thread that even questions the ASI is being censored. So all who want to discuss / oppose it should probably post it here. Guess WRX is getting some asi money or something

[eightiron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1394716962' post='8861941']
So apparently any post in Waldrons thread that even questions the ASI is being censored. So all who want to discuss / oppose it should probably post it here. Guess WRX is getting some asi money or something
[/quote]

Technically you have to be a sponsor to hold that sort of high ground ! 64 pages and not a single demonstration of the method ( and it is a method make no illusion about it ) . And here we stand !!

[ej002]

Are you trolling again? Where is that guy Ballshiss - he needs to straighten you out

[tembolo1284]

I'm totally lost with that method.

[eightiron]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1394719264' post='8862185']
Are you trolling again? Where is that guy Ballshiss - he needs to straighten you out
[/quote]

I missed all that but it's been filed away for future reference . Hopefully a swing will appear so the light saber can come out of the wardrobe !

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1394721071' post='8862445']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1394719264' post='8862185']
Are you trolling again? Where is that guy Ballshiss - he needs to straighten you out
[/quote]

I missed all that but it's been filed away for future reference . Hopefully a swing will appear so the light saber can come out of the wardrobe !
[/quote]

I'm going back to the beginning of the thread to see if there are any swings. I want them to demonstrate one that is ASI and one that isn't.

[eightiron]

Temb

That's the illusion , all swings have it , some more than others , so in that case why can't they just put up their own swings !!

[tembolo1284]

[quote name='eightiron' timestamp='1394723422' post='8862719']
Temb

That's the illusion , all swings have it , some more than others , so in that case why can't they just put up their own swings !!
[/quote]

8i...do you understand it? I'm completely lost. I don't see how to get to the top as they prescribe. I'd be way upright and across the line like a mother on wheels.