Hogans Hip Diagram

[JasonFL]

Chicken or the egg?

 

Can your right side work in the manor Hogan described in this diagram if your left hip does not open fast enough, or far enough at the beginning of your down swing?

 

 

 

For clarification sake:

 

Fast enough means, it has to fire early enough in the swing vs. the arms.

 

Far enough means it cant just fire a few inches. It must fire and become open before the right elbow can sync up with your right hip.

 

So is it the chicken or the egg?

 

If you lead with your right elbow will your hips automatically fire correctly?

 

Or

 

If your left hip fires correctly will it cause you to lead with your right elbow?

[Hoganstriker]

Draw a line from right leg in first pic through the center of the head. Draw a line from the left leg through the center of the head on the second pic. The club in both pics is perpendicular to the shoulders so the hands haven't moved a bit.
Two quotes free ride down and also there must be enough lateral motion forward to transfer weight to the left lead leg. First establish the new pivot point. First before rotating. Balanced rotation can only occur when there's an established pivot point.
Remember you are dealing in terms of a pelvic girdle not a right pelvic girdle and left pelvic girdle. Maybe that will help ya a bit .

[MizunoJoe]

Chicken or the egg?

 

Can your right side work in the manor Hogan described in this diagram if your left hip does not open fast enough, or far enough at the beginning of your down swing?

 

 

 

For clarification sake:

 

Fast enough means, it has to fire early enough in the swing vs. the arms.

 

Far enough means it cant just fire a few inches. It must fire and become open before the right elbow can sync up with your right hip.

 

So is it the chicken or the egg?

 

If you lead with your right elbow will your hips automatically fire correctly?

 

Or

 

If your left hip fires correctly will it cause you to lead with your right elbow?

 

Hogan made a huge lateral shift between those two figures which put the pitch elbow in the right place before the firing of the hips.

 

Look at the first swing in this video(I suggest muting the sound) -

[Coat Jones]

I would not agree it is huge, but there is some lateral, but he clearly said the weight has to go lateral and REARWARD. Rearward is a word many ignore. There is a lateral only to the extent it allows the rearward progress to commence- if you go past that point you are too infront of the ball instead of behind it.

He is turning inside the inside of the left knee, he is not going to the top/outside of it.

I believe the word used in 5L was "trifle" with respect to the amount of travel laterally- doesn't sound huge to me.

[JasonFL]

Thanks for the responses. All good points!

Heres a good screen shot showing his lateral move as well as putting his arms in a similar position as his diagram.

[JasonFL]

[quote name='Coat Jones' timestamp='1413984566' post='10331809']
I would not agree it is huge, but there is some lateral, but he clearly said the weight has to go lateral and REARWARD. Rearward is a word many ignore. There is a lateral only to the extent it allows the rearward progress to commence- if you go past that point you are too infront of the ball instead of behind it.
[/quote]

Upper body weight goes rearward?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Coat Jones' timestamp='1413984566' post='10331809']
I would not agree it is huge, but there is some lateral, but he clearly said the weight has to go lateral and REARWARD. Rearward is a word many ignore. There is a lateral only to the extent it allows the rearward progress to commence- if you go past that point you are too infront of the ball instead of behind it.

He is turning inside the inside of the left knee, he is not going to the top/outside of it.

I believe the word used in 5L was "trifle" with respect to the amount of travel laterally- doesn't sound huge to me.
[/quote]

Yes, the tailbone moves closer to the target on the BS as seen in the first figure. It's after that when the additional lateral shift happens. It's clear to see in the video. I'm talking about what Hogan actually did, not what he wrote in 5L, which was written for the general public with his promise that if they followed his 5L advice, they could break 80. He also didn't squeeze his elbows together as shown in the book, but wanted amateurs to do it so their arms and pivot would sync up. I also believe he didn't think most ams could master a lateral shift, and the turn-in-a-barrel swing would serve their purpose. But, a top level swing requires the lower body center be moved well forward before turning through the ball, and Hogan knew better players would fill in the blanks in 5L.

[Coat Jones]

Agreed about the elbows, and other parts of the book being a broader template perhaps, but will have to disagree on the optics about what is, or isn't, defined as "huge" lateral forward. He is not turning [b]in[/b] [i]a barrel,[/i] he is moving [b]within[/b] [i]an ellipse[/i].

To the OP, the answer to both original questions is 'NO', not necessarily. Additionally, you asked about the upper body going rearward. No, it doesn't, if rearward in this specific case is defined as a wobbly, side-to-side, teeter totter up and down.

However specifically the torso does indeed go rearward rotationally. If you throw a ball and the arm is defined as going forward is not the trunk, especially the left shoulder area, from a sensory viewpoint, moving rearward in support of the task along with its brother, the right shoulder. If both trunk and arm are moving forward then welcome to a train wreck.

Same thing, as the club goes forward something has to support it going rearward. Not my rules I'm afraid, it's the way the world is wired.

[Pinsplitter59]

lots of lateral movement, people don't seem to like that nowadays.
[attachment=2472089:Hogan_lateral_move.jpg]

[Pinsplitter59]

lines weren't very visible, try this.
[attachment=2472105:Hogan_lateral_move.jpg]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Pinsplitter59' timestamp='1414188092' post='10346053']
lines weren't very visible, try this.
[attachment=2472105:Hogan_lateral_move.jpg]
[/quote]
The lines show how far he got left, dramatically increasing his right leg slant.

[alansmithdc]

In 5L Hogan says the belt buckle should be in line with the ball when the hands are hip high and the hips are opening to the target.

[Coat Jones]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ3lcKeNjCU

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='Coat Jones' timestamp='1414780080' post='10379369']
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VJ3lcKeNjCU
[/quote]

You can believe Mike Austin and swing like that guy or do what Hogan does. I don't do what Hogan does because it's Hogan, but because I know from experience that if I don't move my lower body center of mass forward, it will pull back on the swing robbing me of power, not to mention making it hard to hit irons before low point.

[Silky]

 

Draw a line from right leg in first pic through the center of the head. Draw a line from the left leg through the center of the head on the second pic. The club in both pics is perpendicular to the shoulders so the hands haven't moved a bit. Two quotes free ride down and also there must be enough lateral motion forward to transfer weight to the left lead leg. First establish the new pivot point. First before rotating. Balanced rotation can only occur when there's an established pivot point. Remember you are dealing in terms of a pelvic girdle not a right pelvic girdle and left pelvic girdle. Maybe that will help ya a bit :).

 

I have seen this figure many times but I did not really pay enough attention to it. Form reading the posts in this thread, I realized the important information that I had missed.

 

So, the initial Hogan's downswing phase is mainly lower body action - translation and rotation of the pelvic girdle carrying the mainly passive upper body along for a "free ride". This you can see that from the top, the pelvic girdle rotates CCW from 4:30 to 1:30 while the shoulder girdle being carried along goes from 6:00 to 3:00, that is from perpendicular to the target line to squared to the target line. Notice during this phase, the angle between the pelvic girdle and the shoulder girdle is maintained at 45 degrees.

So, there is no leveraging done to the shoulder girdle from the pelvic girdle. In this phase, all the angles from the hips up are being maintained if not being tightened up or more loaded due to the inertia of the left arm and the club.

 

Another action during this phase is the lowering of the right elbow and the attachment of the right upper arm to the right torso. This action will shallow the club onto the impact plane.

 

So during this initial phase, the action of the lower body imparts both translational and rotational kinetic energies to the upper body and also align the club on the impact plane ready for the upper body to fire and generate more rotational kinetic energy. Since the pelvic girdle has turned beyond 3:00 to 1:30, the goat is safe.

 

This is what I read from this thread. Thank you gentlemen.

[MizunoJoe]

 

Draw a line from right leg in first pic through the center of the head. Draw a line from the left leg through the center of the head on the second pic. The club in both pics is perpendicular to the shoulders so the hands haven't moved a bit. Two quotes free ride down and also there must be enough lateral motion forward to transfer weight to the left lead leg. First establish the new pivot point. First before rotating. Balanced rotation can only occur when there's an established pivot point. Remember you are dealing in terms of a pelvic girdle not a right pelvic girdle and left pelvic girdle. Maybe that will help ya a bit :).

 

I have seen this figure many times but I did not really pay enough attention to it. Form reading the posts in this thread, I realized the important information that I had missed.

 

So, the initial Hogan's downswing phase is mainly lower body action - translation and rotation of the pelvic girdle carrying the mainly passive upper body along for a "free ride". This you can see that from the top, the pelvic girdle rotates CCW from 4:30 to 1:30 while the shoulder girdle being carried along goes from 6:00 to 3:00, that is from perpendicular to the target line to squared to the target line. Notice during this phase, the angle between the pelvic girdle and the shoulder girdle is maintained at 45 degrees.

So, there is no leveraging done to the shoulder girdle from the pelvic girdle. In this phase, all the angles from the hips up are being maintained if not being tightened up or more loaded due to the inertia of the left arm and the club.

 

Another action during this phase is the lowering of the right elbow and the attachment of the right upper arm to the right torso. This action will shallow the club onto the impact plane.

 

So during this initial phase, the action of the lower body imparts both translational and rotational kinetic energies to the upper body and also align the club on the impact plane ready for the upper body to fire and generate more rotational kinetic energy. Since the pelvic girdle has turned beyond 3:00 to 1:30, the goat is safe.

 

This is what I read from this thread. Thank you gentlemen.

 

The initial phase includes a knee shuffle and lateral shift of the hips.

[bscinstnct]

The diagram, to me, is not accurate.

Hogans rt elbow moves down more

http://youtu.be/9D5oDen_qHM

[JasonFL]

[quote name='bscinstnct' timestamp='1415242765' post='10403761']
The diagram, to me, is not accurate.


[/quote]

Yeah I agree with that after some of the comments and pics in this thread.

[Jobu]

The whole point is to not swing with your weight on your right foot.