Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[ej002]

It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1314914710' post='3535708']
It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.
[/quote]

I think so too. Here's a test to somewhat prove it. Hold a club with your left hand, put your left hand mid body which will cup your wrist, then let the club drop down by gravity until it can't drop anymore WHILE the wrist is cupped. Now, while in that maximum "drop", slowly force the clubhead to drop more in order to fully unccck the left wrist (which is what will happen in actual ds due to centrifugal force of clubhead, which you can't prevent if you're pivoting decently). You'll find that in doing this, your left wrist is flattening. That's just the way our wrist is made. It's maximum full unccck inevitably caused by centrifugal force due to your rotating pivot WILL cause the full unccck, which in turn will cause the flat left wrist. Conversely, the flat left wrist will cause or allow the full unccck of club/wrist. When you give your pivot a SUDDEN all out increase in pivot turn at around the time your hands are hip height (such as Hogan IMO; he said this by the way in 5L), that max out pivot will cause the full unccck, hence cause the flat left wrist, and because of weight of clubhead being left behind (very heavy in Hogan's case by the way) by the maxes out pivot turn of shoulders/arms/hands, the left wrist will even bow in direct proportion to the pivot turn velocity. It's like the left wrist is adjusting to the speed of the pivot and amount of centrifugal force. The good thing about it is it also naturally adjusts the clubface. The faster the pivot, the more flat or bowed the left wrist is, if more flat or bowed, the more/faster the left wrist allows the clubhead to unccck and the more flat/bow the more the left wrist allows the clubface to close. Isn't that something?

[grahler]

Hogan mentioned it in Five Lessons also about left wrist NOT slowing down the club.
Flat left wrist is a snapshot in time.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='grahler' timestamp='1314934718' post='3536509']
Hogan mentioned it in Five Lessons also about left wrist NOT slowing down the club.
Flat left wrist is a snapshot in time.
[/quote]

Yeah. But I think Hogan is implying in there that must happen. Did he say you should consciously supinate and bow the left wrist? But he said you must not consciously pronate and/or bend/cup left wrist prior at impact zone.

In relation to this, what do you all here think of Schlee's left elbow turning/pointing to left hip move? Bertrand claims Hogan told that directly to Schlee? It's not a left wrist move, but you think it will help the pivot pull, which in turn help tje supination/bowing action? It helps attaching the left upper chest with upper left arm, hence making the pivot pull on left arm and clubhead stronger/faster?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1314914710' post='3535708']
It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.
[/quote]

It depends what You mean with active. For sure there is some activity in arms and hands and they are guiding the club to move different ways. Pivot doesn't make solution for everything.

Before I thought the move of the hands was left wrists palmar flexion but one thread in this forum opened my eyes. You really get same looking position by ulnar deviation and there is huge difference on hand/ch relation between those two ways.

[drewspin]

Yes, in Life magazine, Hogan says there was nothing automatic about it, and the cupping of his left wrist (and presumably the uncupping) was the only thing he concentrated on in his swing.

I think Shlee's theory of left elbow pointing into left hip and (Bertrand's description) is not what Hogan did in the impact zone. Shlee shallowed out the bottom of the arc with his DEEP knee bend and very active lower body rotation (left knee, left hip going level left).

Clearly, that's not what Hogan did to shallow out the arc.

Going into the impact area, Hogan still had his cupped left wrist, moved it instantly into supination, then the left latissumus and left shoulder and left arm (connected to the left wrist obviously) flattened out the bottom of the arc (what Moe called the "Horizontal tug"), and with that engagement, the right hand is free to hit hard, because the face is NOT going to close all the way.

This is not ONLY a pivot pull, it is a pull AND a push.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314939986' post='3536678']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1314914710' post='3535708']
It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.
[/quote]

It depends what You mean with active. For sure there is some activity in arms and hands and they are guiding the club to move different ways. Pivot doesn't make solution for everything.

Before I thought the move of the hands was left wrists palmar flexion but one thread in this forum opened my eyes. You really get same looking position by ulnar deviation and there is huge difference on hand/ch relation between those two ways.
[/quote]

I would take Mr. Fats' word for it (see FLW topic)---intentionally ulnar deviating (fully uncccking) the left wrist is a "BREAKING MECHANISM", thus will slow down the clubhead speed. I think you should not intentionally ulnar deviate, and you should not also intentionally palmar flex (bow) the left wrist. IMO these will all occur automatically/naturally provided you got the sequencing right, pivots in ds even decently, got the grip correctly and hence have a cup on top, and most importantly got to top during bs correctly.

[TeeAce]

It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.

 

It depends what You mean with active. For sure there is some activity in arms and hands and they are guiding the club to move different ways. Pivot doesn't make solution for everything.

 

Before I thought the move of the hands was left wrists palmar flexion but one thread in this forum opened my eyes. You really get same looking position by ulnar deviation and there is huge difference on hand/ch relation between those two ways.

 

I would take Mr. Fats' word for it (see FLW topic)---intentionally ulnar deviating (fully uncccking) the left wrist is a "BREAKING MECHANISM", thus will slow down the clubhead speed. I think you should not intentionally ulnar deviate, and you should not also intentionally palmar flex (bow) the left wrist. IMO these will all occur automatically/naturally provided you got the sequencing right, pivots in ds even decently, got the grip correctly and hence have a cup on top, and most importantly got to top during bs correctly.

 

Actually it doesn't slow down the ch. Ch speed is almost totally depended of the speed of the left wrist and wrist action doesn't seem to have any influence for that. I know it's a strong statement, but measurements are telling that with no doubt.

 

There is so many ways to make wrong conclusions if one thing is missing. As an example here is one graph of left wrist speed.

 

 

Same player, same shot and the blue line is how most of the devices are measuring that speed and make conclusion that hands are slowing down a lot and sharply before impact to speed up the ch. The red line is real hand speed so what is the explanation for that difference?

[svsvincenzo]

It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.

 

It depends what You mean with active. For sure there is some activity in arms and hands and they are guiding the club to move different ways. Pivot doesn't make solution for everything.

 

Before I thought the move of the hands was left wrists palmar flexion but one thread in this forum opened my eyes. You really get same looking position by ulnar deviation and there is huge difference on hand/ch relation between those two ways.

 

I would take Mr. Fats' word for it (see FLW topic)---intentionally ulnar deviating (fully uncccking) the left wrist is a "BREAKING MECHANISM", thus will slow down the clubhead speed. I think you should not intentionally ulnar deviate, and you should not also intentionally palmar flex (bow) the left wrist. IMO these will all occur automatically/naturally provided you got the sequencing right, pivots in ds even decently, got the grip correctly and hence have a cup on top, and most importantly got to top during bs correctly.

 

Actually it doesn't slow down the ch. Ch speed is almost totally depended of the speed of the left wrist and wrist action doesn't seem to have any influence for that. I know it's a strong statement, but measurements are telling that with no doubt.

 

There is so many ways to make wrong conclusions if one thing is missing. As an example here is one graph of left wrist speed.

 

 

Same player, same shot and the blue line is how most of the devices are measuring that speed and make conclusion that hands are slowing down a lot and sharply before impact to speed up the ch. The red line is real hand speed so what is the explanation for that difference?

 

I don't understand Teeace. Maybe just language issues. What's that got to do with using left hand intentionally to ulnar deviate the left wrist? Intentionally ulnar deviating tje left wrist is sorta like casting. You disturb the natural uncccking of left wrist caused by centrifugal and/or centripetal force. So instead of doing that, why not just intentionally put your efforts in increasing CF/CP?

[TeeAce]

It is caused by gravity/physics whatever and the drastic change of direction. The arms are not linear so it is nto an active wrist move. Wrist are a result of what is happening. All caused by the pivot IMO.

 

It depends what You mean with active. For sure there is some activity in arms and hands and they are guiding the club to move different ways. Pivot doesn't make solution for everything.

 

Before I thought the move of the hands was left wrists palmar flexion but one thread in this forum opened my eyes. You really get same looking position by ulnar deviation and there is huge difference on hand/ch relation between those two ways.

 

I would take Mr. Fats' word for it (see FLW topic)---intentionally ulnar deviating (fully uncccking) the left wrist is a "BREAKING MECHANISM", thus will slow down the clubhead speed. I think you should not intentionally ulnar deviate, and you should not also intentionally palmar flex (bow) the left wrist. IMO these will all occur automatically/naturally provided you got the sequencing right, pivots in ds even decently, got the grip correctly and hence have a cup on top, and most importantly got to top during bs correctly.

 

Actually it doesn't slow down the ch. Ch speed is almost totally depended of the speed of the left wrist and wrist action doesn't seem to have any influence for that. I know it's a strong statement, but measurements are telling that with no doubt.

 

There is so many ways to make wrong conclusions if one thing is missing. As an example here is one graph of left wrist speed.

 

 

Same player, same shot and the blue line is how most of the devices are measuring that speed and make conclusion that hands are slowing down a lot and sharply before impact to speed up the ch. The red line is real hand speed so what is the explanation for that difference?

 

I don't understand Teeace. Maybe just language issues. What's that got to do with using left hand intentionally to ulnar deviate the left wrist? Intentionally ulnar deviating tje left wrist is sorta like casting. You disturb the natural uncccking of left wrist caused by centrifugal and/or centripetal force. So instead of doing that, why not just intentionally put your efforts in increasing CF/CP?

 

The graph was only to show how different definitions can make different results.

 

Difference in our thoughts might be that I think player can guide the wrist to UD or dorsi flexion way and natural is what is natural for that player. I suggest to guide it to UD way. I haven't seen one player who is missing chs by UD. I have seen players who miss hand speed and cha a lot by df. Lot of them.

[svsvincenzo]

I see. How do you do your UD way? With left wrist Itself, of course?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1314962832' post='3536878']
I see. How do you do your UD way? With left wrist Itself, of course?
[/quote]

Feelings and muscle action is impossible to explain, but I just feel the ch dropping that way and not coming outside of the hands.

But rather talking about my own actions I try to explain what good players do and how I see those happenings in measurements and videos. Unfortunately I can't post those videos or give any rights to see same I see, so it's sometimes little hard to explain my opinions. I just got so much more information about those shots than I can share. So many things has to be checked to get right that multilink happening in timescale.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

so what are the definitions ? linear speed of left wrist vs rotational speed of left hand ?

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314972467' post='3537142']
so what are the definitions ? linear speed of left wrist vs rotational speed of left hand ?
[/quote]

When You get that right, You will also put big question mark to kinetic chain theory.

First figure out why they are so different and then try to get reasonable explanation for the red one and why it still slows down and at what position of swing.

[JOEGOLFWRX]

you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.

[svsvincenzo]

Teeace, when you reach full UD at impact, what then? Won't reaching full UD at impact cause left wrist to flip or clubface to close quickly? But I think your method of getting there (your "UD way") is a very good ds concept until before impact zone. I still don't think you should reach full UD at impact. Left wrist must be "level" to keep the ch going and square.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314981369' post='3537486']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.
[/quote]

Speed is a scalar, velocity a vector quantity. Obviously, when the blue line goes negative, the hands are still moving with speed, they're just moving away from the target hence have a negative velocity vector based on how the measurement system defined positive and negative directions. The red line is speed, the blue velocity.

In the blue curve, the hands appear to slow down more than they really do because they start moving left before impact. So I think that the blue line represents more of a 2D face-on view of velocity.

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314981729' post='3537494']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314981369' post='3537486']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.
[/quote]

Speed is a scalar, velocity a vector quantity. Obviously, when the blue line goes negative, the hands are still moving with speed, they're just moving away from the target hence have a negative velocity vector based on how the measurement system defined positive and negative directions. The red line is speed, the blue velocity.

In the blue curve, the hands appear to slow down more than they really do because they start moving left before impact. So I think that the blue line represents more of a 2D face-on view of velocity.
[/quote]

Is this the same as saying that the red line represents actual hand speed (distance/time)and the blue line represents the rate of acceleration of the hands? Because, that's my guess at the lines.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314982478' post='3537511']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314981729' post='3537494']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314981369' post='3537486']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.
[/quote]

Speed is a scalar, velocity a vector quantity. Obviously, when the blue line goes negative, the hands are still moving with speed, they're just moving away from the target hence have a negative velocity vector based on how the measurement system defined positive and negative directions. The red line is speed, the blue velocity.

In the blue curve, the hands appear to slow down more than they really do because they start moving left before impact. So I think that the blue line represents more of a 2D face-on view of velocity.
[/quote]

Is this the same as saying that the red line represents actual hand speed (distance/time)and the blue line represents the rate of acceleration of the hands? Because, that's my guess at the lines.
[/quote]

No. The blue line cannot be acceleration because the rate of change of velocity is acceration and therefore the slopes of the curves would not mirror each other. For example, accereration cannot go negative while velocity is increasing (as happens at some points in the graph). Teeace has already told us that they both represent "speed" measurements.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314981729' post='3537494']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314981369' post='3537486']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.
[/quote]

Speed is a scalar, velocity a vector quantity. Obviously, when the blue line goes negative, the hands are still moving with speed, they're just moving away from the target hence have a negative velocity vector based on how the measurement system defined positive and negative directions. The red line is speed, the blue velocity.

In the blue curve, the hands appear to slow down more than they really do because they start moving left before impact. So I think that the blue line represents more of a 2D face-on view of velocity.
[/quote]

I knew it was easy even some thought it's impossible to say.

So the blue one is lateral speed toward the target and red one is absolute speed.

So the red line is where our interest should be, not the blue line, because it tells nothing about power that is produced. The red line shows also slow down but less. It's slowing down when wrist are unhinging and ch is moving further from the center of rotation. That can't be avoided but to kept as small as possible.

[drewspin]

Alex, thank you.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314983706' post='3537557']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314981729' post='3537494']
[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314981369' post='3537486']
[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1314979714' post='3537429']
you cant figure out anything without some base definitions, any graph is meaningless without its definitions, what was measured, relative to what, how, 2 machines or one, what are the limits of the measuring devices etc. sure one could be degrees/sec the other feet/sec.
[/quote]

Only one device but two different definitions for hand speed. But Your'e so clever that I let You to find the possible answers.
[/quote]

Speed is a scalar, velocity a vector quantity. Obviously, when the blue line goes negative, the hands are still moving with speed, they're just moving away from the target hence have a negative velocity vector based on how the measurement system defined positive and negative directions. The red line is speed, the blue velocity.

In the blue curve, the hands appear to slow down more than they really do because they start moving left before impact. So I think that the blue line represents more of a 2D face-on view of velocity.
[/quote]

I knew it was easy even some thought it's impossible to say.

So the blue one is lateral speed toward the target and red one is absolute speed.

So the red line is where our interest should be, not the blue line, because it tells nothing about power that is produced. The red line shows also slow down but less. [b]It's slowing down when wrist are unhinging and ch is moving further from the center of rotation. That can't be avoided but to kept as small as possible.[/b][/quote]

Right, this is due to the increasing mass moment of inertia of the arms/club unit. The clubhead moment of inertia is a squared function of the radius of it's arc of travel (specifically the arc of travel of it's center of mass), so when this radius increases quickly due to unhinging of the wrists, the inertia goes up quite alot. The hands therefore slow down. In part this can be explained via conservation of angular momentum (although not entirely correct since you are still applying a force) the same concept as the ice skater in the spin extending her arms to slow down. The more lag you have, the more the hands will slow down as you approach impact because of this effect.

It seems to me that some instuctors (the "snap the kinetic linkers") in recent years have misunderstood this effect, confusing effect with cause and teaching "braking" as a way to speed up the club. They got it entirely backwards. Slowing down one body part to speed up another (in absolute terms) is junk science. Even some of the leading biomechanists seem confused by this.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314985264' post='3537632']
[
It seems to me that some instuctors (the "snap the kinetic linkers") in recent years have misunderstood this effect, confusing effect with cause and teaching "braking" as a way to speed up the club. They got it entirely backwards. Slowing down one body part to speed up another (in absolute terms) is junk science. Even some of the leading biomechanists seem confused by this.
[/quote]

Exactly. And it seems even bigger when they measure that like our blue line. It has led to so many confusions and people trying to do something which just is destroying their game.

[drewspin]

Great posts above! Totally agree!

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1314985843' post='3537655']
[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1314985264' post='3537632']
[
It seems to me that some instuctors (the "snap the kinetic linkers") in recent years have misunderstood this effect, confusing effect with cause and teaching "braking" as a way to speed up the club. They got it entirely backwards. Slowing down one body part to speed up another (in absolute terms) is junk science. Even some of the leading biomechanists seem confused by this.
[/quote]

Exactly. And it seems even bigger when they measure that like our blue line. It has led to so many confusions and people trying to do something which just is destroying their game.
[/quote]

Michelle Wie's swing was almost destroyed in 2008 by this kind of thinking brought about by the misinterpretation of K-vest data. Thankfully, it didn't take too long for whomever she was working with to figure out that they got it wrong.

"A fool with a tool is still a fool."

[JOEGOLFWRX]

i dont see how the comparisons brings kinetic chain theory into question.

[TeeAce]

[quote name='JOEGOLFWRX' timestamp='1315013955' post='3538491']
i dont see how the comparisons brings kinetic chain theory into question.
[/quote]

I know.

[drewspin]

So, the solution is then to focus on maintaining the wrist angles, while also shortening the hand-path, and promoting moves that keep the hands moving with torques strong enough to resist for a longer period of time the higher inertias of the club's "release".

The kinetic linkers think the momentum passes entirely from proximal segment to distal segment, but keeping the hands moving and reducing the radius of the hand path is more powerful.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314901799' post='3535177']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314894147' post='3534811']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314892903' post='3534736']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

Great pic! This move from cupped to raised is on pg 102 in 5L, as I'm sure everyone here knows. In the book, The Venturi Analysis, there is a Hogan driver sequence which shows the move happening before that. Maybe he did it earlier and more gradually for wood clubs?
[/quote]

The thing I see Hogan doing (on fade swings), in fact, is not a really a "gradual supination" as described in the text and as Ravielli illustrated in the famous drawing, its a very quick, lightning fast, move from the cupped (dorsiflexion) to bowed (palmar flexion) left wrist with a supination in between.

In the other series I have with the driver it is apparent in the same place and equally as fast. I am working on that group of images and hope to have something ready soon.
[/quote]

I look forward to seeing those! I've had some success doing it gradually, but maybe the real deal is to do it fast.
[/quote]

I finally picked up a swing speed radar yesterday. Here's some interesting data, albeit anecdotal. Using a standard TGM Turned Shoulder Plane cf Swing with a RFT bs, and a delivery line left forearm roll for Horizontal Hinging. My avg swing speed for a 9 iron was 70 mph with a max of 73. No matter how hard I pivoted and/or added arm effort, the max was in the low 70s. By adding the Schlee clubhead layoff as taught to him by Hogan, AND by adding a snap arching and roll of the left wrist/arm at a late release point as described above by drewspin, the avg jumped up into the 80s with a [b]max of 88 mph[/b]! With only about 80-85% effort, there was a 15mph increase. This was done on grass at my home in the country with limited space, using high quality Precept balls and a Mizuno MP-29 9 iron with 5.5 Rifle shaft. As soon as I can, I will test with longer clubs.

The question for this forum is, of course, whether Hogan did this or not. This empirical data suggests maybe he did.