Sam's guess at Hogan's secret...

[drewspin]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315506212' post='3551323']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314901799' post='3535177']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314894147' post='3534811']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314892903' post='3534736']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]

Great pic! This move from cupped to raised is on pg 102 in 5L, as I'm sure everyone here knows. In the book, The Venturi Analysis, there is a Hogan driver sequence which shows the move happening before that. Maybe he did it earlier and more gradually for wood clubs?
[/quote]

The thing I see Hogan doing (on fade swings), in fact, is not a really a "gradual supination" as described in the text and as Ravielli illustrated in the famous drawing, its a very quick, lightning fast, move from the cupped (dorsiflexion) to bowed (palmar flexion) left wrist with a supination in between.

In the other series I have with the driver it is apparent in the same place and equally as fast. I am working on that group of images and hope to have something ready soon.
[/quote]

I look forward to seeing those! I've had some success doing it gradually, but maybe the real deal is to do it fast.
[/quote]

I finally picked up a swing speed radar yesterday. Here's some interesting data, albeit anecdotal. Using a standard TGM Turned Shoulder Plane cf Swing with a RFT bs, and a delivery line left forearm roll for Horizontal Hinging. My avg swing speed for a 9 iron was 70 mph with a max of 73. No matter how hard I pivoted and/or added arm effort, the max was in the low 70s. By adding the Schlee clubhead layoff as taught to him by Hogan, AND by adding a snap arching and roll of the left wrist/arm at a late release point as described above by drewspin, the avg jumped up into the 80s with a [b]max of 88 mph[/b]! With only about 80-85% effort, there was a 15mph increase. This was done on grass at my home in the country with limited space, using high quality Precept balls and a Mizuno MP-29 9 iron with 5.5 Rifle shaft. As soon as I can, I will test with longer clubs.

The question for this forum is, of course, whether Hogan did this or not. This empirical data suggests maybe he did.
[/quote]

AWESOME!!

[drewspin]

MJ -

Did you notice any change in the contact pattern, or a flattening of the bottom of the downswing arc?

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315594984' post='3553551']
MJ -

Did you notice any change in the contact pattern, or a flattening of the bottom of the downswing arc?
[/quote]

Yes, defintely seems like a "flatter" or elongated low point with high spin and lower trajectory, but longer carry. I'll have to use impact tape or talc to be sure where the face contact is compared to the sweetspot wear spot, which is about the size of a nickel. My concern with the longer clubs is that with the longer shafts(especially driver), there will be a much larger load on the left wrist and forearm compared to the short shafted 9 iron. I don't know if I'm strong enough to sustain the snap roll with the same authority. If not, I'll invest in one of those "wrist-ripper" strength devices to build up the left forearm/wrist, although mine is pretty strong now from beating thousands of balls over several decades. Of course we all know Hogan had blacksmith arms and hands, but whether or not Hogan did this, I'm going to continue doing it, because there's no way I could give up that kind of head speed increase!

[drewspin]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315596619' post='3553595']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315594984' post='3553551']
MJ -

Did you notice any change in the contact pattern, or a flattening of the bottom of the downswing arc?
[/quote]

Yes, defintely seems like a "flatter" or elongated low point with high spin and lower trajectory, but longer carry. I'll have to use impact tape or talc to be sure where the face contact is compared to the sweetspot wear spot, which is about the size of a nickel. My concern with the longer clubs is that with the longer shafts(especially driver), there will be a much larger load on the left wrist and forearm compared to the short shafted 9 iron. I don't know if I'm strong enough to sustain the snap roll with the same authority. If not, I'll invest in one of those "wrist-ripper" strength devices to build up the left forearm/wrist, although mine is pretty strong now from beating thousands of balls over several decades. Of course we all know Hogan had blacksmith arms and hands, but whether or not Hogan did this, I'm going to continue doing it, because there's no way I could give up that kind of head speed increase!
[/quote]

You raise a very good point - the MOI of the club as a whole is going to be a Lot further from your hands with the long irons and woods and you're going to need to be very strong in the hands and forearms. Consider backweighting as an option.

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315599343' post='3553679']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1315596619' post='3553595']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315594984' post='3553551']
MJ -

Did you notice any change in the contact pattern, or a flattening of the bottom of the downswing arc?
[/quote]

Yes, defintely seems like a "flatter" or elongated low point with high spin and lower trajectory, but longer carry. I'll have to use impact tape or talc to be sure where the face contact is compared to the sweetspot wear spot, which is about the size of a nickel. My concern with the longer clubs is that with the longer shafts(especially driver), there will be a much larger load on the left wrist and forearm compared to the short shafted 9 iron. I don't know if I'm strong enough to sustain the snap roll with the same authority. If not, I'll invest in one of those "wrist-ripper" strength devices to build up the left forearm/wrist, although mine is pretty strong now from beating thousands of balls over several decades. Of course we all know Hogan had blacksmith arms and hands, but whether or not Hogan did this, I'm going to continue doing it, because there's no way I could give up that kind of head speed increase!
[/quote]

You raise a very good point - the MOI of the club as a whole is going to be a Lot further from your hands with the long irons and woods and you're going to need to be very strong in the hands and forearms. Consider [b]backweighting[/b] as an option.
[/quote]

My only concern with that would be that with the lighter feeling head, it would make the Schlee layoff move more difficult, since I have trouble now feeling the head drop at D-2 or D-3.

[drewspin]

Yes, it's a balance.

I think if you experiment, you'll find the relative contributions to club head speed from the lay off move and the late hit/late release move.

From all accounts, Hogan had strong hands and forearms and used Heavy clubs (though there are some inconsistent reports on what the swingweights were).

Wishon and Tschetter both say HEAVY though.

Conclusion, Hogan had some STRENGTH and he used it.

[Ben Hogan Swing Project]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1314841451' post='3533373']
Hogan told Life about his cupped left wrist at the top, but he didn't explain where he took that cup OUT and how it transitioned the left wrist from a cup into a bowed left wrist (palmar flexion) through impact.

Well, he carried that cupped wrist down to the bottom of the elevator, then when the hands were in front of the right thigh he moved into supination SO FAST... that there are hardly any pictures of it, and it is barely visible on any video footage.

But, there are a couple pictures that show it, and Jules Alexander took one of them and caught it in this frame right here:

[attachment=850605:supinate.jpg]

A split second before this, his left wrist is still cupped and a split second after, he is in palmar flexion heading into impact... but for a brief, very brief moment, he supinates.

I also believe Hogan did something with his hands in transition that John Schlee describes in his Maximum Golf video.
[/quote]


This left wrist/hand supination is exactly what I am doing in my swing right now.

[nitram]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315357423' post='3546918']
So, the solution is then to focus on maintaining the wrist angles, while also shortening the hand-path, and promoting moves that keep the hands moving with torques strong enough to resist for a longer period of time the higher inertias of the club's "release".
[/quote]

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ E X A C T L Y ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Drew,

I'll go farther and say that it's imperative for a RH golfer to first and foremost grip the club properly to allow him to acquire the maximum Palmar Flexion (PF) as soon as possible in the BS while maintaining the proper clubface angle at impact. This causes the LH to also PF at the top of the BS (cupped wrist). Maintaining the 90* or so angle of the right wrist from the top of the BS until the angle is forcibly reduced around impact and beyond will force the LH to flatten and in Mr. Hogans case dorsi-flex (DF) i.e.; "bowed wrist". I may be stating the obsurdly obvious here but by developing and maintaining the angle of the right wrist combined with a decent pivot produces both the cupped and bowed wrist during the swing and more lag than most can imagine. The reason the you go from cupped, straight, to the bowed wrist position is a nano-second is because it is unconscious (for the most part) and is almost purely the result of gravity on the weight of the clubhead forcing you to lose the PF of the RH.

As far as hand path is concerned, you know that the shortest path between point A (the top of the hands in the BS) and point B (hand position at impact) is a straight line. The straighter you can go to the ball, the more torque and power you're gonna deliver. Ayers has an excellent explanation/demonstration on this.

I'll also say that Alexs' post about slinging a puck off of a hockey stick puts that feeling into words I've never been able to describe but is dead-on. Thank You, I'll use it in the future (with all copyrights going to Michigan), of course.

I don't know if I've added anything productive to what you've written or to this thread but to me this is what makes Mr. Hogan, Mr. Hogan.

[drewspin]

The problem with a pure straight line all the way to the ball is that you need some huge forearm and hand muscles to keep the club from releasing when the hands get about hip high, and/or you need to move down quite slowly.

Using parametric acceleration (similar to the principle for putting energy into a playground swing by pumping and pulling). You can redirect the force on the handle to shorten the radius of the left arm, allowing the inertial momentum of the club to shoot out and away in the opposite direction. After you initiate that move, the right hand and hip can fire through and they are pushing across the handle, but not rolling over. They are essentially hitting and pushing at the moment the shaft is already moving fast into impact.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315663420' post='3554995']
The problem with a pure straight line all the way to the ball is that you need some huge forearm and hand muscles to keep the club from releasing when the hands get about hip high, and/or you need to move down quite slowly.

Using parametric acceleration (similar to the principle for putting energy into a playground swing by pumping and pulling). You can redirect the force on the handle to shorten the radius of the left arm, allowing the inertial momentum of the club to shoot out and away in the opposite direction. After you initiate that move, the right hand and hip can fire through and they are pushing across the handle, but not rolling over. They are essentially hitting and pushing at the moment the shaft is already moving fast into impact.
[/quote]

I'm not sure what you mean by "parametric" acceleration but what Teeace and I have been commenting about WRT hand path is that that the hands go up and left before impact (the "turn the corner" that's been discussed here many times over the past 4+ years). Remember, velocity and acceleration are vector quantities, so the hand speed could theoretically be constant (although in reality not likely to be so) but the change of direction of the hands (non-linear) creates a change in velocity and therefore a centipetal acceleration. That centripetal acceleration is what causes the clubhead to seek an alignment with the left arm and contributes to increased clubhead speed.

This is why Slicefixer took the HS videos of this kid from from some unusual perspectives, to more clearly see the handpath and how it relates to clubhead path and it is what Teeace's graph's show - better players tend to have a greater change of direction of the hands before impact which adds to clubhead speed:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_7ZoHaDq710&feature=channel_video_title

[drewspin]

Hoganfan, You just described parametric acceleration. The term dates to a 2001 research journal paper by Miura (not the clubmaker).

I prefer to say it is the inertial momentum of the club that is accelerated by the change in force vectors on the handle that causes the alignment with the left arm, but fundamentally the semantics of why are far less important that how and what.

[hoganfan924]

[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315684474' post='3555541']
Hoganfan, You just described parametric acceleration. The term dates to a 2000 research journal paper by Miura (not the clubmaker).

I prefer to say it is the inertial momentum of the club that is accelerated by the change in force vectors on the handle that causes the alignment with the left arm, but fundamentally the semantics of why are far less important that how and what.
[/quote]

Not sure why Miura felt the need to use a different term for centripetal acceleration, but that's what it is. "Parametric" just means parameter based. It's frequently used in engineering and science to describe something that is formulaic, such as "parametric design."

[drewspin]

[quote name='hoganfan924' timestamp='1315761622' post='3556970']
[quote name='drewspin' timestamp='1315684474' post='3555541']
Hoganfan, You just described parametric acceleration. The term dates to a 2000 research journal paper by Miura (not the clubmaker).

I prefer to say it is the inertial momentum of the club that is accelerated by the change in force vectors on the handle that causes the alignment with the left arm, but fundamentally the semantics of why are far less important that how and what.
[/quote]

Not sure why Miura felt the need to use a different term for centripetal acceleration, but that's what it is. "Parametric" just means parameter based. It's frequently used in engineering and science to describe something that is formulaic, such as "parametric design."
[/quote]


Here's what the abstract to the article says: "The phenomenon is called the parametric acceleration, following the parametric excitation of vibration problems also governed by a similar equation. . . .In the golf swing, the club is accelerated by the hands in a tangential direction. Theoretically, the additional acceleration of the clubhead could be achieved by pulling the club in the radial direction at impact stage, assuming that the centrifugal force of the clubhead is fully developed. To test this idea, an emulation using a modified double-link model was carried out. It was shown that the clubhead velocity could be increased substantially by the inward pull motion of the club at the impact stage, at which point no other means of acceleration is available. Discussions include the actual movement of the body for the inward pull, the efficiency of the pull motion and application to other sports."

[Doublebuck]

[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314806546' post='3532056']
[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1314725837' post='3530246']
Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...[b]never let the toe overtake the heel[/b] etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.
[/quote]

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L. He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone. Why is this in the book? In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings. Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XNgMNK3CtWU[/url]
[/quote]

Fascinating thread. Looked at the video above and as far as I can tell he doesn't allow the right to roll over the left. From what I read from Slicefixer, he certainly is not a flipper who does roll his right over his left.

[ej002]

[quote name='Doublebuck' timestamp='1315771105' post='3557212']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314806546' post='3532056']
[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1314725837' post='3530246']
Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...[b]never let the toe overtake the heel[/b] etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.
[/quote]

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L. He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone. Why is this in the book? In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings. Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XNgMNK3CtWU[/url]
[/quote]

Fascinating thread. Looked at the video above and as far as I can tell he doesn't allow the right to roll over the left. From what I read from Slicefixer, he certainly is not a flipper who does roll his right over his left.
[/quote]


Of all those swings in that video I dont see one where the forearms roll over. If you look at his left arm, he has a "late" looking chicken-wing effect. IF the forearms rolled over, that left eblow would consistently be close (as in stuck) to his body. Also the left arm is under the right going through impact.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315840321' post='3558700']
[quote name='Doublebuck' timestamp='1315771105' post='3557212']
[quote name='MizunoJoe' timestamp='1314806546' post='3532056']
[quote name='Zico Martin' timestamp='1314725837' post='3530246']
Others have said similar things....keep the face looking at the target a fraction longer...[b]never let the toe overtake the heel[/b] etc

To do this, you need great pivot, trying to control/manipulate it with the hands/arms is an upcoming train wreck...Hogan said as much himself in 5L.

Hogan, Trevino, Knudson...and almost all great ball strikers...past and present...great pivot.

ZM.
[/quote]

Look at the illustration on p 102 of 5L. He shows the arms rolling open and then rolling closed through impact while raising his left wrist bone. Why is this in the book? In Hogan Mystique, I see his right hand rolling over the left in most of the swings. Yes, he's got a great pivot, but it's NOT true that he "never lets the toe roll over the heel", it's clearly happening in this video in both the power golf and 5L swings.

[url="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNgMNK3CtWU"]http://www.youtube.c...h?v=XNgMNK3CtWU[/url]
[/quote]

Fascinating thread. Looked at the video above and as far as I can tell he doesn't allow the right to roll over the left. From what I read from Slicefixer, he certainly is not a flipper who does roll his right over his left.
[/quote]


Of all those swings in that video I dont see one where the forearms roll over. If you look at his left arm, he has a "late" looking chicken-wing effect. IF the forearms rolled over, that left eblow would consistently be close (as in stuck) to his body. Also the left arm is under the right going through impact.
[/quote]

So, if Hogan's not rolling over, what's the purpose then of open clubface, weak grip, pronation, lay-off, cupping, pitch elbow and early return left (aka counter fall), huh? If Hogan is not rolling, he wouldn't have a need at all for all of those. Why would Hogan bother with all those if he could have just prevented the lefts by a one and simple move of just pivoting and not full rolling? He could have just lessened the roll enough to prevent the hooks. But he felt the need for all of those. He couldn't just lessen the roll because that made him lose yardage. So he really rolled to maintain the yardage (which to me is OBVIOUS by the way on p. 102 as pointed out by MJ and in '55 Life article where Hogan said clubface won't close square enough "no matter how hard he rolled into and through the ball"), then he just adopted the pronation, cupping and weak grip to prevent the lefts. So I'm really at a loss why the idea of not rolling even came up.

And by the way, there's one more factor to prevent face closure, so no matter how hard/fast he rolled, the clubface closes at a relatively slow rate.

[drewspin]

The term "rolling over" can mean very different things, depending on your perspective. We have a semantics problem about what is rolling.


Commonly, the rolling of the right hand over the left through impact is what is termed "rolling over".

In Hogan's swings at least post-secret, it's pretty clear that he's not rolling his right hand over his left through impact.

Yet, Hogan is still able to have rotation about the longitudinal axis of his left arm. Hogan could "roll into and through the ball" without "rolling over" in the tradtional sense of the words.

[ej002]

Drewspin - I agree with what you are saying to a degree.

But I still do not see the left forearm as rolling. At least not actively. Maybe as a result of the forces that physic imparts on the club head, the forearm will close. At most, the upper left arm may be turning (which may be a result of him squeezing his connection), this may get the elbow to do something funky, but I dont see an active "closing of the left forearm"

Look at the two pics above. The one on the left is immediately before impact. The forearm is closing, but it is not closed. This can be a result of many things including pivot - geez look how open his torso is already. Now look at the one on the right, the forearm is aiming to the caddy in a caddyview. It has not rolled or closed, all that happened is that the left wrist bowed. Big deal.

The right arm - no question - is is NOT going over the left.

"[b]So, if Hogan's not rolling over, what's the purpose then of open clubface, weak grip, pronation, lay-off, cupping, pitch elbow and early return left (aka counter fall), huh[/b]?"

I am not sure what pitch elbow has to do with rolling over. Same for "early return left." You can have both and let physics square the fact. IT is Hogan's drastic change in direction that causes the face to shut. He did it the best. He had to offset it somehow. And besides, cupping, lay-off, pitch elbow, etc all goes along with a body pivot. Just like baseball, he liked that feel. Coincidently it fights the lefts. But it has no cause /effect with haveing to "roll" into the ball. You guys are looking for something that is not there. To play that fast and at that level, there is no way he could just say "i think I am going to roll my forearm only 87* on shots from now on so I dont over roll". No. He figured out something that was unfeckupable and automatic. To think otherwise is folly.

My last argument (and I am done, b/c we will probably never see it the same way) - is look at his left elbow action in the follow through. He has a very late and minor chicken wing action. The elbow would elbow a kid in the head if standing beside him on the follow through. Its there in almost every swing. If he was trying to roll his forearm somehow, even just a little bit, he could never get into that postion. That position is a result of him attempting NOT to roll his forearm.

So how did he go from the picture on the right to the picture on the left and get that weird looking left eblow in the follow through? Get laid off and maybe you can figure it out.

Ohh, and the bow I dont think is conscious either. Put the left hand weak and the right hand neutral, to keep dorsi-flexed the left has to bow. Three right hands? Right hand slapping the left wrist has to give way.

[TeeAce]

I have found on thing that explains quite many things. By that Tom Bertrand can be right with the left elbow and it also explains why Hogans wrists separated at impact. It also gives the reason to twist arms triangle open and keep the right elbow in.

"You don't steer only to the left, You steer also to the right"

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='TeeAce' timestamp='1315852094' post='3559134']
I have found on thing that explains quite many things. By that Tom Bertrand can be right with the left elbow and it also explains why Hogans wrists separated at impact. It also gives the reason to [b]twist arms triangle open and keep the right elbow in[/b].

"You don't steer only to the left, You steer also to the right"
[/quote]

That's it! And the bent right wrist(arched left) keeps the clubhead tracking more down the target line while the left shoulder goes left.

[ej002]

Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.

[svsvincenzo]

All those (open clubface, grip, pronation, cupping, pitch, early return left, etc.) are designed to prevent/retard clubface closure too soon at impact given that he's full rolling. People with relatively higher bs plane can't full roll because their swing path is less in to out (more left), they'll hit it left for sure.

I don't see the little chicken winging. Maybe in some big fade shots. In fact his trademark is his followthru wherein his left elbow is so in front of the torso with hands high. So how can he be chicken winging even a little?

Don't see it here:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GI_yEtX7iJ8&feature=youtube_gdata_player

[moehogan]

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315859237' post='3559425']
Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.
[/quote]

Didn't he say 3 right hands at impact? So how can that be resistance? With his fast pivot and all those anti-close mechanisms, if he's not rolling he'll hit it foul right all the time. And he'll lose yardage big time, I'd say maybe at least 20 yards with a driver (though he said just 5 yards in '55 Life article).

I dare to say, with his relatively small height, his best weapon, his indispensable weapon, that he cannot afford to leave at home is the full rolling. Without that he just won't match up with the big guys such as Snead and Nelson. He won't have that 132 clubhead speed (darn is that true? 132?).

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.

[moehogan]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315878722' post='3560170']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315859237' post='3559425']
Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.
[/quote]

Didn't he say 3 right hands at impact? So how can that be resistance? With his fast pivot and all those anti-close mechanisms, if he's not rolling he'll hit it foul right all the time. And he'll lose yardage big time, I'd say maybe at least 20 yards with a driver (though he said just 5 yards in '55 Life article).

I dare to say, with his relatively small height, his best weapon, his indispensable weapon, that he cannot afford to leave at home is the full rolling. Without that he just won't match up with the big guys such as Snead and Nelson. He won't have that 132 clubhead speed (darn is that true? 132?).

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]
You can hit with FIVE right hands if your hands are turning in opposite directions through impact.

From here, a full roll might put you in the left ... or right field bleachers! [url="http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html"]A Study in Power[/url]

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315859237' post='3559425']
Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.
[/quote]

Don't forget he rolls it open on the BS and cups his left wrist. As drew spin says, he then arches and snap rolls 90 degs to square before impact.

[MizunoJoe]

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

 

He's already snap rolled 90 degs in the right pic, after rolling it open 90 degs going back.

[moehogan]

Here we go again ... Sam KNEW!

 

 

He's already snap rolled 90 degs in the right pic, after rolling it open 90 degs going back.

 

I agree ... question is HOW he executed the "90 degree snap roll".

[MizunoJoe]

[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315878722' post='3560170']

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]

You too? LOL

Actually, when I try to snap roll at release, it doesn't really happen that fast, and gives me a square clubface at impact. And you're right about impact too - it just gives a crisp, clean contact I don't otherwise get. TGMers call this "Delivery Line Roll", and it has to be programmed in well before impact.

[svsvincenzo]

[quote name='moehogan' timestamp='1315880345' post='3560256']
[quote name='hogangolf101' timestamp='1315878722' post='3560170']
[quote name='ej002' timestamp='1315859237' post='3559425']
Although I am not sure I believe it, it is a possible explanation why you guy say he is rolling and I don't see it. Resistance of the right arm is preventing a roll and you guys are seeing the torque in the arm.
[/quote]

Didn't he say 3 right hands at impact? So how can that be resistance? With his fast pivot and all those anti-close mechanisms, if he's not rolling he'll hit it foul right all the time. And he'll lose yardage big time, I'd say maybe at least 20 yards with a driver (though he said just 5 yards in '55 Life article).

I dare to say, with his relatively small height, his best weapon, his indispensable weapon, that he cannot afford to leave at home is the full rolling. Without that he just won't match up with the big guys such as Snead and Nelson. He won't have that 132 clubhead speed (darn is that true? 132?).

I just incorporated, permanently, the full rolling a week ago (after believing for so long against it..yeah even if I've been posting FOR it...lol) and I gained 25yards in a wedge! I was so shocked I decided to adopt it permanently and work around it and just find a way to prevent the lefts. And I think it's not only got to do with increased clubhead speed, there's also the "clean strike" Mr. Hogan talked about. He really said it all.
[/quote]
You can hit with FIVE right hands if your hands are turning in opposite directions through impact.

From here, a full roll might put you in the left ... or right field bleachers! [url="http://www.julesalexander.com/hogan.html"]A Study in Power[/url]
[/quote]

If you slow pivot, slow hands, straighten the angle, lose the pitch, magically squares the 5degree open face and flip, yes you'll hit the bleachers. He found a way to slow down that face closure even with full rolling as hell. And you'll have a better chance of discovering it the smaller in height you are...the 6degree flatter lies/clubs, remember...